Depiction of Konrad Kurze in HH books.

[Scribe]

This also comes around again to a Nature vs Nurture debate.

 

Your recruitment pool isnt going to matter a great deal, when they are saturated in the behavior patterns of the Legion, either pre or post Curze. The fact that there would have been 'sane' Night Lords who came in with Curze in the early years is glossed over it seems, or has not yet been illuminated because they would have gone from 'normal' in the sense of the wider morality at the time, to a place of killing civilians to destabilize target worlds in a very short time period. Now that I think on it actually, the Apothecary in Massacre could have been one of these...

 

Those recruits from when Nostramo was enduring the peace of the jail house would have very quickly been either weeded out, or assimilated into the same mind set and behavior patterns seen with either the Terran 'nights children' or the post societal collapse Nostramian recruits, or as perhaps our good Apothecary shows...cracked.

 

One does not simply skin children alive and move on to the next compliance.

[Conn Eremon]

Aye, Nostromo, and the Night Lords Legion it creates, is an example of that old argument where one heavily overpowers the other.

[Kol Saresk]

This also comes around again to a Nature vs Nurture debate.

 

Your recruitment pool isnt going to matter a great deal, when they are saturated in the behavior patterns of the Legion, either pre or post Curze. The fact that there would have been 'sane' Night Lords who came in with Curze in the early years is glossed over it seems, or has not yet been illuminated because they would have gone from 'normal' in the sense of the wider morality at the time, to a place of killing civilians to destabilize target worlds in a very short time period. Now that I think on it actually, the Apothecary in Massacre could have been one of these...

 

Those recruits from when Nostramo was enduring the peace of the jail house would have very quickly been either weeded out, or assimilated into the same mind set and behavior patterns seen with either the Terran 'nights children' or the post societal collapse Nostramian recruits, or as perhaps our good Apothecary shows...cracked.

 

One does not simply skin children alive and move on to the next compliance.

We pretty much have everything telling us that when Curze came to the Night Lords, he taught them to fight the exact same way he fought on Nostramo. Those "sane" Night Lords from the peaceful days of Nostramo would still be directly exposed to that as that would be their indoctrination. Their lives as Astartes, would begin the exact way the Primarch known as Konrad Curze, Night Haunter, wanted it to begin; the Sinners who Sinned so others wouldn't have to. They might have started out sane, but they still would have started out flaying people and putting the bodies up on pikes. Later on, it'd just be that the Legion began to like the terror tactics and began doing them for fun, not because they needed to. That's the change, going from doing what must be done(in their eyes) to doing what must be fun.

[Scribe]

I'd have to read Prince of Crows again (woe is me) to get the timeline, but did we not have a generation that would have grown up in 'peace'?

 

I recognize that the system of Curze was not going to change, I just wonder if the first of the recruits would have had any context for Curzes methods if that makes sense?

[Perrin]

Surely though all marines should be like this? They are created to do what normal humans can't, which although usually just means tearing off xenos heads without breaking a sweat, should also mean that they carry out orders without any thought for morality or ethics. Obviously things like obeying orders are ingrained into their psyche, but things like mentioned here, skinning people alive, slaughtering innocents etc shouldn't be unthinkable for an astartes if they believe they are doing it in the name of duty.
 

I may not have explained it very well but I believe that for story telling purposes Space Marines should have no concept of human morality or emotions. ADB does this quite well imo, showing the gulf between human emotion and astartes.

[Wade Garrett]

And yet one doesn't see Imperial Fists or Ultramarines giggling to one another as they murder small children over the course of several hours, nor do those Legions occasionally hunt their own Chapter Serfs to stave off ennui.

 

Heck, even the World Eaters mercy kill POWs and enemy wounded while cringing at the sadistic antics of their Word Bearer allies.

[Scribe]

There are a number of differences.

 

1. 30K vs 40K marines.

2. Differences in morality (Salamanders vs Black Templars)

 

Following orders is not the point, but the effect of following those orders. You have to try to put yourself in that place, in that mindset. Watch some documentaries on genocide. Then watch a few more.

 

Yes marines are 'built' to follow orders, but even a marine has a breaking point.

[Kol Saresk]

Surely though all marines should be like this? They are created to do what normal humans can't, which although usually just means tearing off xenos heads without breaking a sweat, should also mean that they carry out orders without any thought for morality or ethics. Obviously things like obeying orders are ingrained into their psyche, but things like mentioned here, skinning people alive, slaughtering innocents etc shouldn't be unthinkable for an astartes if they believe they are doing it in the name of duty.

 

I may not have explained it very well but I believe that for story telling purposes Space Marines should have no concept of human morality or emotions. ADB does this quite well imo, showing the gulf between human emotion and astartes.

Typically, yes and no. They only have what they are taught. For example, some Astartes forces are taught "sneaking around is the coward's way". Some are taught "sneaking around can be useful and you should not shirk from doing so if it is advantageous". It's the same way some people in the world are taught not to break any laws while some are taught the belief that "its okay to break the little ones". Morality and ethics, as always, are in the Eye of the Beholder. Space Marine ethics are and should be unique to them. Even an Ultramarine has no problem firing into civilians if they feel it is absolutely necessary, as evidenced in The First Heretic when they attempted Crowd Dispersion. And they are considered to be one of the "friendly" Legions.

 

You are abnsolutely right, if an Astartes is taught that killing children is okay, then he will not shirk from it. If he is taught it is wrong(like the Salamanders) then his instinct will be to avoid that course of action.

 

The Terran Night Lords, from what little we know about them, were taught to do whatever was necessary to ensure the annihilation of the enemy. The Early Nostraman Night Lords were, in contrast, taught to do whatever was necessary to ensure the subjugation of the enemy with as little collateral(overall; destroying one city of ten million versus fighting through five cities and killing thirty million) while the Later Nostramans were taught to basically do whatever they felt like doing. Either that or the proscribed method of combat resonated with the killer instincts they had developed and that was what caused what should have been erased through hypno-indoctrination to come to the fore.

[Conn Eremon]

And yet one doesn't see Imperial Fists or Ultramarines giggling to one another as they murder small children over the course of several hours, nor do those Legions occasionally hunt their own Chapter Serfs to stave off ennui.

Ultramarines: "Experimental combat simulation #3467c, 'Vulkan,' to begin shortly. Colonel Volgin, your regiment will play the role of serfs of the Legio XVIII. Engagement commences in five."

 

"W-what's going--" *BAM*

 

"Sergeant, please prepare the Guydallian Rifles. This won't take long."

[Kol Saresk]

I think one thing we should keep in mind is these Astartes(30K variant) have their combat manuals and everything else that one would normally go to say, boot camp for, directly implanted into their brains. This will have effects we can only imagine.

[wtwhizz]

This also comes around again to a Nature vs Nurture debate.

 

Your recruitment pool isnt going to matter a great deal, when they are saturated in the behavior patterns of the Legion, either pre or post Curze. The fact that there would have been 'sane' Night Lords who came in with Curze in the early years is glossed over it seems, or has not yet been illuminated because they would have gone from 'normal' in the sense of the wider morality at the time, to a place of killing civilians to destabilize target worlds in a very short time period. Now that I think on it actually, the Apothecary in Massacre could have been one of these...

 

Those recruits from when Nostramo was enduring the peace of the jail house would have very quickly been either weeded out, or assimilated into the same mind set and behavior patterns seen with either the Terran 'nights children' or the post societal collapse Nostramian recruits, or as perhaps our good Apothecary shows...cracked.

 

One does not simply skin children alive and move on to the next compliance.

 

I thought the entire NLs being bad dudes argument was pretty well explained, right?

 

Curze complains that Nostromo filled his Legion with a bunch of kill happy torture freaks, but that's just him yet again acting like a victim and refusing to take responsibility for his actions.  Curze is the reason they're kill happy torture freaks because Curze himself was a kill happy torture freak.  He just handled the cognitive dissonance by saying it was required to keep people in line.  No one believed that tripe, not even his own dudes.  So they merrily do all the nasty stuff and Curze emo-rages at the Sky before coming up with the equally emo and hipster idea of forcing one of his brothers to kill him so he can be "proven right."  He fails miserably at even this and is eventually forced to have a freaking woman come chop his head off to finally go "Nyah nyah nyah boo boo!" at the Emperor.  Who is already stuck inside the Golden Toilet.  Which kind of makes Curze's antics even more pathetic.

 

Gah.  The Night Lords used to be a favorite a mine, but Jay-sus H. Christo they suck now.  The devil-may-care, sarcastic attitudes of Sevatar and then Talos and his crew in 40k are fun, but anything dealing with Curze is just. . .ugh.  Out of all the Primarchs he should be constantly argued for as the most bad ass.  This dude is supposed to be a nightmare come to life.  He's the one guy who utilizes fear (and gets it done, so much so that he even scared Dorn witless) when all his peers are denying it even exists for them.  Instead he's the equivalent of a chain smoking teenager wearing all black with some silly Chinese character tattoos and a stupid haircut.  

[Scribe]

At this point, yeah. Curze arc needs help. It was ready to peak at Prince of Crows and went...sideways.

[Kol Saresk]

3 huzzahs for Vulcan Lives. :teehee:

[GhostMalone]

I'll agree with that, curze was supposed to be a broken sadistic sociopath with a talent for dramatisation and theatrical acts that have way to the start of a mental breakdown during a state of martyrdom.

 

I want that curze back!

 

 

Ohh and by the way Australians aren't scum.... Unless they are from Elizabeth davron park salisbury parafield gardens or rural Australia.

 

Were angry and drunk and lazy but were not criminals

 

 

 

This also comes around again to a Nature vs Nurture debate.

 

Your recruitment pool isnt going to matter a great deal, when they are saturated in the behavior patterns of the Legion, either pre or post Curze. The fact that there would have been 'sane' Night Lords who came in with Curze in the early years is glossed over it seems, or has not yet been illuminated because they would have gone from 'normal' in the sense of the wider morality at the time, to a place of killing civilians to destabilize target worlds in a very short time period. Now that I think on it actually, the Apothecary in Massacre could have been one of these...

 

Those recruits from when Nostramo was enduring the peace of the jail house would have very quickly been either weeded out, or assimilated into the same mind set and behavior patterns seen with either the Terran 'nights children' or the post societal collapse Nostramian recruits, or as perhaps our good Apothecary shows...cracked.

 

One does not simply skin children alive and move on to the next compliance.

I thought the entire NLs being bad dudes argument was pretty well explained, right?

 

Curze complains that Nostromo filled his Legion with a bunch of kill happy torture freaks, but that's just him yet again acting like a victim and refusing to take responsibility for his actions. Curze is the reason they're kill happy torture freaks because Curze himself was a kill happy torture freak. He just handled the cognitive dissonance by saying it was required to keep people in line. No one believed that tripe, not even his own dudes. So they merrily do all the nasty stuff and Curze emo-rages at the Sky before coming up with the equally emo and hipster idea of forcing one of his brothers to kill him so he can be "proven right." He fails miserably at even this and is eventually forced to have a freaking woman come chop his head off to finally go "Nyah nyah nyah boo boo!" at the Emperor. Who is already stuck inside the Golden Toilet. Which kind of makes Curze's antics even more pathetic.

 

Gah. The Night Lords used to be a favorite a mine, but Jay-sus H. Christo they suck now. The devil-may-care, sarcastic attitudes of Sevatar and then Talos and his crew in 40k are fun, but anything dealing with Curze is just. . .ugh. Out of all the Primarchs he should be constantly argued for as the most bad ass. This dude is supposed to be a nightmare come to life. He's the one guy who utilizes fear (and gets it done, so much so that he even scared Dorn witless) when all his peers are denying it even exists for them. Instead he's the equivalent of a chain smoking teenager wearing all black with some silly Chinese character tattoos and a stupid haircut.

So he's Chris angel?

[Son of Carnelian]

I'm just gonna drop a bomb into this thread and say I hate Curze. I think Sevetar and his Night Lords, who hate Curze, are radical. But Curze just comes off like an unkillable murder machine. His insanity isn't engaging or "deep," it's just revolting. The idea that he could wipe the floor with other Primarchs just galls me. The notion that Curze would be vindicated if his brothers killed him is so insanely wrong that I can only find humor in it. 

 

I'm not saying any of the Black Library authors have written him poorly. I just find him despicable when I can sympathize with nearly every other Primarch to a degree. 

[Kol Saresk]

I'm just gonna drop a bomb into this thread and say I hate Curze. I think Sevetar and his Night Lords, who hate Curze, are radical. But Curze just comes off like an unkillable murder machine. His insanity isn't engaging or "deep," it's just revolting. The idea that he could wipe the floor with other Primarchs just galls me. The notion that Curze would be vindicated if his brothers killed him is so insanely wrong that I can only find humor in it.

 

I'm not saying any of the Black Library authors have written him poorly. I just find him despicable when I can sympathize with nearly every other Primarch to a degree.

Ironically, that's why I like him. :D

 

Although just to point out, Sevatar doesn't hate Curze. He just thinks Curze does a lot of lying to himself.

[Wade Garrett]

If all Curze wanted was to be killed by a brother I'm sure the Lion or even Angron would have been happy to oblige him without the need for a whacky labyrinth of dream sequences.

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. Like I said, 3 huzzahs for Vulkan Lives. The 2-D, cardboard Freddy Jason Curze from Unremembered Empire did a better job than the Edward Cullen. That Krueger-Curze was pretty funny...

[Conn Eremon]

"Well, you see, it's because the Emperor sent an assassin that he feels his actions have been vindicated. It is a convoluted, psycho logic, but this is Konrad after all."

 

"Uh huh, uh huh. So Konrad needs to die in order to feel like he had any use."

 

"Well, that's not quite what it means . . . "

 

"I'll write a book where he does everything he can to get himself killed, but can't because it's too early!"

 

"You're kinda taking it out of context . . . "

 

"Ooh, and I'll add Vulkan!"

 

"NOOOOOOO!"

[Wade Garrett]

Maybe we should just count our blessings that Nick didn't make Curze a Perpetual while he was at it.

[Kol Saresk]

"Well, you see, it's because the Emperor sent an assassin that he feels his actions have been vindicated. It is a convoluted, psycho logic, but this is Konrad after all."

 

"Uh huh, uh huh. So Konrad needs to die in order to feel like he had any use."

 

"Well, that's not quite what it means . . . "

 

"I'll write a book where he does everything he can to get himself killed, but can't because it's too early!"

 

"You're kinda taking it out of context . . . "

 

"Ooh, and I'll add Vulkan!"

 

"NOOOOOOO!"

So that was the thought process behind it.

 

Honestly, I think Nick Kyme was just trying to add a different angle, but the angle itself and the way it was presented just doesn't fit with the psychosis. It'd be like trying to say Zsasz became a serial killer because he suffers from Multiple Personalities when it was actually PTSD. One of these things isn't like the other.

[GhostMalone]

The whole martyrdom I think only once the self loathing became to much for even his psyche.

 

His brothers had failed his sons were barely loyal to him, the imperium would never recover and it was due to his role at the warmasters side.

 

He did a lorgar locked himself away & only had screaming half alive decapitated corpse friends and visions of soon and gloom

[Lord Tharand]

I'm just gonna drop a bomb into this thread and say I hate Curze. I think Sevetar and his Night Lords, who hate Curze, are radical. But Curze just comes off like an unkillable murder machine. His insanity isn't engaging or "deep," it's just revolting. The idea that he could wipe the floor with other Primarchs just galls me. The notion that Curze would be vindicated if his brothers killed him is so insanely wrong that I can only find humor in it. 

 

I'm not saying any of the Black Library authors have written him poorly. I just find him despicable when I can sympathize with nearly every other Primarch to a degree. 

 

I think that this is how one is supposed to feel in regards to a Primarch (And Legion) that is mostly an insane murderer.  The impression that I get from reading Massacre is that the Night Lords were always doing fairly bad stuff.  The Emperor might have originally ordered them to do retribution killings and murdering of entire cities such as The Vhnori Resurgence shows.  But it doesn't take much to go from the point of being ordered to carry out a grim task and then enjoying it as it shows in The Winnowing battles.

 

In general I like the way they've been presented.  Curze is being haunting by these visions of a possible future that shows only death and destruction for most of his life.  That's bound to drive anyone nuts.  I mean, Horus spent 20 minutes in a vision state on Davin and decided that was enough to become a traitor!

 

The Night Lords were a flawed concept from the start that spiraled out of control.  What makes them interesting to me is how each of the individual marines sees his and the legion's purpose. 

[GhostMalone]

Just figured it out Stan lee is the emperor.

 

All his comic characters he divided to genetically create and that's why the primarchs went wrong.

 

Too many concepts into a single being

[Conn Eremon]

Just figured it out Stan lee is the emperor.

 

All his comic characters he divided to genetically create and that's why the primarchs went wrong.

 

Too many concepts into a single being

 

So . . . Vulkan is Deadpool?