Depiction of Konrad Kurze in HH books.

[GhostMalone]

HA!

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Just figured it out Stan lee is the emperor.

 

All his comic characters he divided to genetically create and that's why the primarchs went wrong.

 

Too many concepts into a single being

So . . . Vulkan is Deadpool?

Why would you insult Deadpool? Besides, he could care less who lives or dies as long as he gets to be with Death. Which Thanos permanently screwed up.

[Scribe]

You thread derailers are not going to win here! This is our Primarch being discussed!

 

I'd be interested in your analysis on what traits are presented in Curzes psychosis that you feel Vulkan Lives treads so hard on. 

[Kol Saresk]

Its in a couple of my reviews on Vulkan Lives. I'll dig them up later.

[Son of Carnelian]

Man, I even like Angron. And I feel like the Red Angel would look over at Konrad and go "dude, ease up." Just the idea that he would wipe out an entire world after it went off the rails. I would posit that it's probably because of Konrad's insane rule that the people of Nostromo just threw off Imperial rule like a bad outfit. 

[GhostMalone]

Give kurze credit look at like this, using a planet as an example would sure as he'll keep a system in check.

 

If I was in that position I'd destroy a civilisation at a whim, humans can be repopulated and be re educated to be an exemplar society. Kurze proved this with nostramo.

 

His only fault was not wiping the populace out and starting fresh

[Conn Eremon]

If I was in that position I'd destroy a civilisation at a whim, humans can be repopulated and be re educated to be an exemplar society. Kurze proved this with nostramo.

Yeah . . . No, he didn't.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

 

If I was in that position I'd destroy a civilisation at a whim, humans can be repopulated and be re educated to be an exemplar society. Kurze proved this with nostramo.

Yeah . . . No, he didn't.

Curze proved that if you treat peope like animals that can only be controlled with a blade at their throat you shouldn't be surprised if they turn on you like animals when you take the blade away.

 

Or, to phrase it a bit more eloquently, the difference between being loved and feared is that people still love you when they think you don't know what THEY'RE doing.

[GhostMalone]

If he had of done as the imperium tend to do, wipe the planet clean and start again he would have had the just society he wished for, he just needed to go even further then kill the criminals.

 

Behaviour is learnt and can be retaught he only made a temporary fix, look at modern day society, we are the way we are due to learnt behaviour and it's taken almost 3 generations to re teach acceptance & tolerance and one generation to learn how to communicate primarily without human interaction.

[Conn Eremon]

Or, to phrase it a bit more eloquently, the difference between being loved and feared is that people still love you when they think you don't know what you're doing.

Great, now I got Konrad doing the "lol i dont know what im doing" meme.

[Wade Garrett]

Sacred feth...when they think you don't know what THEY'RE doing! What THEY'RE DOING!

 

I suppose the typo'd one is accurate too, but the meaning is not quite what I intended.

 

Edit:

I bet if I substitute "I have no idea what I'm doing!" for all Konrad's dialogue in Vulkan Lives the book flows a lot better.

[GhostMalone]

All right ill agree

[Scribe]

If he had of done as the imperium tend to do, wipe the planet clean and start again he would have had the just society he wished for, he just needed to go even further then kill the criminals.

 

Behaviour is learnt and can be retaught he only made a temporary fix, look at modern day society, we are the way we are due to learnt behaviour and it's taken almost 3 generations to re teach acceptance & tolerance and one generation to learn how to communicate primarily without human interaction.

 

Hmm. I think this is probably not true to the extent you make it.

 

He didnt just kill the criminals, he killed anyone who did ANYTHING he didnt like. Curze isnt getting a fair shake I feel, and now that he's in crazy land, I feel we have missed an opportunity here. :/

[Son of Carnelian]

 

If he had of done as the imperium tend to do, wipe the planet clean and start again he would have had the just society he wished for, he just needed to go even further then kill the criminals.

 

Behaviour is learnt and can be retaught he only made a temporary fix, look at modern day society, we are the way we are due to learnt behaviour and it's taken almost 3 generations to re teach acceptance & tolerance and one generation to learn how to communicate primarily without human interaction.

 

Hmm. I think this is probably not true to the extent you make it.

 

He didnt just kill the criminals, he killed anyone who did ANYTHING he didnt like. Curze isnt getting a fair shake I feel, and now that he's in crazy land, I feel we have missed an opportunity here. :/

 

He got a fair shake. Ask Mortarion how many books he has starred in at this point. 

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, everytime I think of actually searching for my reviews, I'm busy. And then when I'm not busy, I'm either not thinking about it or I just feel eh. So instead, I'm writing it.

 

Starting with the IA article, when we first hear of Curze, we basically hear a brief overview of how he subjugated Nostramo with a campaign of terror, punishing the smallest of crimes in the most brutal of methods and leaving the bodies in public display. And when he takes control of his Legion, he teaches them these exact methods.

 

When we see Savage Weapons, we get a brief overview of the Thramas Crusade. On page 374, we see that during the chase, it is common to come across burning worlds they had come to aid, crippling supply routes, annihilating Mechanicum ouposts, escaping ambushes unseen and returning every Loyalist victory with a Loyalist defeat.

 

We see that Curze is very active and it isn't uncommon for Curze to do things that can be found, basically leaving his crimes in the public spotlight.

 

And when we get to Prince of Crows, we take a trip down memory lane back to Nostramo. "Firsthand" we see how Curze purposefully left his victims to be found, if not put on display.

 

We see basically an established method of doing something, and leaving it to be found. We can even see this in Curze's death, how he ordered the Night Lords to allow message of his death, his vindication reach back to the Imperium.

 

But then we get to Vulkan Lives. All of a sudden we go from someone who wears everything on his sleeve for all to see on purpose to trying to hide everything. Granted, when we see him during the Crusade, we do see the showboating in how he wiped out an entire city and left it to be found by his brother. And we see it again when he slaughtered the rest of the population on their transports so they could be found when they reached their destinations, spreading "the message" far and wide.

 

But in the main part of the story, we see that Curze has hidden away what he is doing to Vulkan. He's hidden everything in a maze where no one will ever know. Why? Because his big plan is to get Vulkan to kill him. Not only that, but to keep Vulkan trapped for the rest of his "natural" span. Meaning that Curze and Vulkan would just fade away into the mists of time, only to be forgotten.

 

So where everything else we see either a direct display or leaving things in an obvious place to purposefully be found, all of a sudden we got to hiding it. Its the exact opposite of the established personality. It'd be like writing A Thousands with Magnus doing everything he can to prove the usefulness of psychic powers and then writing later on about how he's suddenly ashamed of his powers an is now "Black Templar" in his attitude towards those same powers and any who use them.

[GhostMalone]

And kol hits a home run and the crowd goes wild!

[Legatus]

 

So where everything else we see either a direct display or leaving things in an obvious place to purposefully be found, all of a sudden we got to hiding it. Its the exact opposite of the established personality. It'd be like writing A Thousands with Magnus doing everything he can to prove the usefulness of psychic powers and then writing later on about how he's suddenly ashamed of his powers an is now "Black Templar" in his attitude towards those same powers and any who use them.

 

Just imagine if someone wrote a story about Ultramarines where the main character then somehow feels that the Codex Astartes wasn't all that great...

[wtwhizz]

 

I'll agree with that, curze was supposed to be a broken sadistic sociopath with a talent for dramatisation and theatrical acts that have way to the start of a mental breakdown during a state of martyrdom.

 

I want that curze back!

 

 

Ohh and by the way Australians aren't scum.... Unless they are from Elizabeth davron park salisbury parafield gardens or rural Australia.

 

Were angry and drunk and lazy but were not criminals

 

 

 

This also comes around again to a Nature vs Nurture debate.

 

Your recruitment pool isnt going to matter a great deal, when they are saturated in the behavior patterns of the Legion, either pre or post Curze. The fact that there would have been 'sane' Night Lords who came in with Curze in the early years is glossed over it seems, or has not yet been illuminated because they would have gone from 'normal' in the sense of the wider morality at the time, to a place of killing civilians to destabilize target worlds in a very short time period. Now that I think on it actually, the Apothecary in Massacre could have been one of these...

 

Those recruits from when Nostramo was enduring the peace of the jail house would have very quickly been either weeded out, or assimilated into the same mind set and behavior patterns seen with either the Terran 'nights children' or the post societal collapse Nostramian recruits, or as perhaps our good Apothecary shows...cracked.

 

One does not simply skin children alive and move on to the next compliance.

I thought the entire NLs being bad dudes argument was pretty well explained, right?

 

Curze complains that Nostromo filled his Legion with a bunch of kill happy torture freaks, but that's just him yet again acting like a victim and refusing to take responsibility for his actions. Curze is the reason they're kill happy torture freaks because Curze himself was a kill happy torture freak. He just handled the cognitive dissonance by saying it was required to keep people in line. No one believed that tripe, not even his own dudes. So they merrily do all the nasty stuff and Curze emo-rages at the Sky before coming up with the equally emo and hipster idea of forcing one of his brothers to kill him so he can be "proven right." He fails miserably at even this and is eventually forced to have a freaking woman come chop his head off to finally go "Nyah nyah nyah boo boo!" at the Emperor. Who is already stuck inside the Golden Toilet. Which kind of makes Curze's antics even more pathetic.

 

Gah. The Night Lords used to be a favorite a mine, but Jay-sus H. Christo they suck now. The devil-may-care, sarcastic attitudes of Sevatar and then Talos and his crew in 40k are fun, but anything dealing with Curze is just. . .ugh. Out of all the Primarchs he should be constantly argued for as the most bad ass. This dude is supposed to be a nightmare come to life. He's the one guy who utilizes fear (and gets it done, so much so that he even scared Dorn witless) when all his peers are denying it even exists for them. Instead he's the equivalent of a chain smoking teenager wearing all black with some silly Chinese character tattoos and a stupid haircut.

So he's Chris angel?

 

When you're next reading about Curze in a future book, just picture him whispering "Mindfreak...." before he jumps out of the shadows at someone.  

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

So where everything else we see either a direct display or leaving things in an obvious place to purposefully be found, all of a sudden we got to hiding it. Its the exact opposite of the established personality. It'd be like writing A Thousands with Magnus doing everything he can to prove the usefulness of psychic powers and then writing later on about how he's suddenly ashamed of his powers an is now "Black Templar" in his attitude towards those same powers and any who use them.

Just imagine if someone wrote a story about Ultramarines where the main character then somehow feels that the Codex Astartes wasn't all that great...

Actually..... No that isn't analogous at all. After all, by 40K the Codex Astartes is more like a self-help book than anything else and Renegade Marines are able to come from any corner of the galaxy, up to an including the stock of Guilliman. No, analogous would be if Guilliman wrote the thing an then went "ech".

[Scribe]

 

 

If he had of done as the imperium tend to do, wipe the planet clean and start again he would have had the just society he wished for, he just needed to go even further then kill the criminals.

 

Behaviour is learnt and can be retaught he only made a temporary fix, look at modern day society, we are the way we are due to learnt behaviour and it's taken almost 3 generations to re teach acceptance & tolerance and one generation to learn how to communicate primarily without human interaction.

 

Hmm. I think this is probably not true to the extent you make it.

 

He didnt just kill the criminals, he killed anyone who did ANYTHING he didnt like. Curze isnt getting a fair shake I feel, and now that he's in crazy land, I feel we have missed an opportunity here. :/

 

He got a fair shake. Ask Mortarion how many books he has starred in at this point. 

 

Mortarions treatment is worse, granted, but that doesnt mean Curze got his say, and Abnett has now set us up for 'I'm a raving loon following the visions.'

[Kol Saresk]

He was always a raving loon following his visions. That's been since the IA article when he saw Nostramo being destroyed by a lance of light and he set on doing every choice that led to him destroying Nostramo by piercing it with a spear of light that went straight into its core.

[Wade Garrett]

Here's hoping ADB can fix some of that mess when (NOT IF! NEVER IF!) he does his Heresy Night Lords novel.

 

"Father?" Sevatar asked, wondering just how to phrase his question.

 

"Yes, my son?"

 

"That whole thing with Vulkan, in the maze. What was the deal with that?"

 

Curze sighed, the soft sound easing out of his pallid lips like noxious vapors from a decaying corpse.

 

"You know how the whole 'insanity' thing works, Sev. You have good days, and you have bad ones. That was a bad one. And now, we shall never speak of this again."

 

"But lor..."

 

"Never. Speak. Of it. Again."

[Kol Saresk]

I think Wade should become an author and then never tells us so when we read his stuff in books, we always have to wonder if its him or not.

[helterskelter]

Hopefully it would be a teeny bit more eloquent in a book, not saying he isn't already, but he has a certain style in his scenarios that could be seen a mile away at the very least, and I would end up shaking my fist at the sky shouting "WAAAAAAADDDDDDDDEEEEE!!!!!!!!" Before returning to the novel.

[Scribe]

He was always one who saw visions, but it doesnt mean he was sitting there sifting through the shifting sands of potential for every choice, at every moment.

And thats a nice cop out Wade, maybe ADB will run with it, but its still a cop out.

EDIT: And Kol, thanks for your post, I havent ignored it, I just dont have time till later to put my own thoughts down.