Against the Crimson Fists

[ChaosReigns]

Hey guys, my normal opponent is a guy who typically plays Crimson Fists (so he's using Imperial Fists' chapter tactics) and recently he's started using some nastier lists after a string of defeats at the hands of my Chaos Space Marines. I'm really not someone who (usually) plays competitively and I'm also just coming back to the hobby after a long hiatus, so I'm sort of needing some tactical advice for dealing with the new shenanigans the Space Marines can evidently pull. Most often we play between 1750 and 2000 points, so relatively big games.

Anyway, for the last couple games he's been fielding more or less the same list, which is approximately as follows:

-Kantor
-Chapter Master w/ the Primarch's Wrath.

-10 x Sternguard (with whatever heavy weapons he happens to slap on 'em).

-9 x Sternguard w/ a plasma gun, melta and several combi-meltas in a Drop Pod.

-5 x Sternguard, usually just a basic squad.
-10x Tacs w/ plasma gun and plasma cannon (sometimes he fields two squads of Tacs using largely the same build).

-10 x Scouts, 9 with snipers, 1 with a heavy bolter that has Hellfire rounds.
-5 x Devastators w/ 2 lascannons, 2 missile launchers

-5 x Devastators w/ 3 x missile launchers, 1 plasma cannon
-1 Whirlwind Scorpius

I find this list incredibly difficult to deal with because in addition to bringing a scathing amount of shooting it seems to invalidate huge swathes of the units Chaos can bring to the table. The Devastators with tank hunters (for free no less) seem to shred anything short of AV 14 - the second last game we played the squads of Devastators managed to destroy a Vindicator each in a single turn. Three units in the gunline are all wounding on a 2+ which makes Nurgle Bikers/Spawn...uhm, less survivable to say the least, particularly if the units should end up in rapid fire range without charging - not to mention the Sternguard, Scouts and Scorpius being a highly effective counter to Plague Marines. It seems very likely that Rhino-borne squads of Chaos Marines (Nurgle or otherwise) are going to fare poorly as well, particularly if their Rhinos should be shot out from under them in the middle of no man's land. Kantor and his Sternguard death squad, who always end up in the Drop Pod, seem inevitably to die in every game we play, but they can also very reliably take out just about any unit before they bite the dust. Not to mention the fact that two orbital bombardments are potentially vicious (thanks in particular to Barrage) unless you can somehow keep all of your units in area terrain that provides a good cover save.

I beat that list just earlier today by fielding nine Obliterators and a Heldrake (in addition to some Thousand Sons, Cultists and a few others), but (perhaps understandably) my opponent was not amused with my "min-maxing". Honestly though I was pretty much totally at a loss as to what else I might put on the table by way of heavy support or fast attack, and most of my usual choices in the other force org chart slots would have been sub-par, to say the least. In any case, hopefully my fellow Chaos Lords at the Bolter and Chainsword can assist me with their collective tactical acumen.

What do you guys think? How might a Chaos player go about besting a Crimson Fists gunline?

[the jeske]

6-9 oblits . 2-3 helldrakes . take cultists as troops and put them in reservs hide them.

Good thing he is runing only one drop pod and on top of that with 9 dudes. if he had 10 in there it would have been way way worse.

2-3 drop pods with 30 dudes , combat squading can blow up a lot of stuff. no grav bikes or TH/ES chapter master means you don;t have to worry about melee on top of shoting . stick to multiple helldrakes and oblits.

 

Another option would be to take 3-4 maulerfiends or some demon ally . 2xDPs , 3-4 maulers and if no 4th mauler then some khorn dogs with khorn herald[10 minimum] . hide troops in reserv.

[ChaosReigns]

Well, see, that's the thing. I was hoping to find some means of countering (if not outright besting) this army that doesn't involve spamming Heldrakes or Obliterators. While I do have a lot of Chaos models (relatively speaking) I'm unfortunately lacking any daemons at the moment and I don't have enough Maulerfiends to use a fiend rush.

 

I gave it some thought last night, and it seems like one method that might work would be to simply overwhelm the Devastators with an armoured rush - cram as many Rhinos into my list as possible, along with maybe a Land Raider and a Daemon Prince all hurtling towards his line at full tilt. The Devastators can only shoot down two targets tops (and hopefully he'll panic and fire at the Land Raider with both), and the rest of his army is geared towards anti-infantry. Still, I haven't drafted up any army lists as yet - unfortunately I have quite a bit of work to do, so that will have to wait a few days.

 

On another note entirely, are Nurgle's daemons effective on the tabletop? In particular, I'm thinking:

 

-Great Unclean Ones

-Epidemius

-Plaguebearers

-Nurglings

-Plague Drones

 

I haven't been able to pick up the daemons' codex as yet, so I wouldn't know.

[the jeske]

Because of how pedro works your not realy better in melee then sternguard or devastators at the same time , if you buy rhinos , you will make your army smaller in melee.

 

A LR may work , or to be precise 2-3 LR may work . he will kill one with the drop pod squad unless your realy unlucky.

 

but generaly without tailoring and without taking oblits+helldrakes it won't work . He is more shotier and more melee then you.

[ChaosReigns]

Oddly enough, I really haven't had any problems dealing with Kantor and his Sternguard death squad after he pods in - barring the fact that they seem to be able to trash pretty well any unit on the turn they arrive. In the last two games we've played, I've fielded Ahriman, as I was taking a substantial contingent of Thousand Sons in both games. Both games, Ahriman has made back his points (and then some) by witchfiring the Sternguard to death and then slapping down Kantor with his force weapon in single combat. While Kantor and Sternguard are certainly solid in melee, they also aren't an immoveable object and, furthermore, because of the way he's deploying Kantor, only the podding Sternguard are receiving the +1 attack.

 

Really, I need some means to limit the effectiveness his Devastators and podding melta death squad - if I were able to take ordnance (on Vindicators and Defilers, principally) that would go a long way to cleaning out those Tactical/Sternguard blobs to thin out the shooting, not to mention potentially being able to pop both squads of Devastators in one go, as he typically places them very close together. However, even bubble wrap provides only a 5+ cover save, which is no where near enough to be effective against melta-Sternguard and Devastator spam. Am I missing something here?

[Frater Cornelius]

Termicide unit would give you an answer to any one unit. 3 termies with axes and combi plasmas/meltas cost you 112 points. That's a steal. Sure, they get shot to hell but at that point they have done their job and distract some units from more important targets. If he does not focus on termies, he will have a couple power weapon attacks up this rear end. It's good pressure.

 

He might be shootier, but hell, nowhere near as choppy as you can make it. You said you like Ahriman? Roll on telepathy for Invisibility, you will get 3 rolls, there's a good chance you'll get it. Get 15 raptors with khorne or slaanesh, 2x 15 CSM with CCW and pistol or something along those lines. Maybe even nurgle spawns to eat overwatch or distract him.

Infiltrate (bonus points for going second to charge first turn). Alternatively try Huron to get the infiltration, it's cheaper. Another way to get the choppy guys close it to buy them rhinos but not deploy in them (seeing as 15 dudes don't fit). Just drive the rhinos in front of them and block LoS with popped smoke. Your dudes will live one round longer. Also spread them out, his small blasts will hit 2 at best.

 

Of cause, to pull that off, you'll need fire support, seeing as you need to get to him, meaning that you have the disadvantage. Oblits are a good choice, but, ever considered allying? Both daemons and IG bring cheap battle canons with a minimal tax to pay. Hell, IG can even bring 3 if you want.

 

But do not count on short ranged shooting against him. You will lose. Even 1kSons will, he forces you to take way too many saves. Either punch his face is, or outrange him.

 

To sum it up, Termicide to delete a unit and distract him, infiltrate or move up choppy dudes behind cheap METAL BAWKSES and have solid fire support to help you advance and thin them out before you get there to disembowel them good.

[daveNYC]

I know the baledrake is cheesy and your opponent hates it (and probably you for taking it), but the flip side is that he's running a non-mechanized MEQ force with no dedicated AA.  He's built an army that's singularly vulnerable to the drake and then he's asking you not to take advantage of that fact.

 

Otherwise, Blastmasters might be a nice fit for shooty goodness.

[Xenith]

He doesnt like your min-maxing? HAHAHAHA!

 

He has the minimum 2 troop units, he has more sternguard than troop models. And TWO chaptermasters.

 

Slap him with the helldrake, 2x3 nurgle obliterators, plasma termicide units to ravage his backfield.

 

Leave cultists in reserve to negate his alphastrike.

 

Drop the tanks to negate his tank hunter skill, the lascannons and combimeltas.

[chillin]

I agree with Xenith, He has some nerve "not liking" YOUR min/maxing. Just say "sorry, chaos doesn't get a bunch of cool chapter tactics for free. I gots to do what I gots to do"

[Deadlight]

how about a pair of defilers, one at each end of your deployment zone, with indirect fire? with only 1 drop pod he would only be able to take out one with his sternguard and then have to footslog it all the way across your deployment zone, fighting through your forces to get to the other. meanwhile your dropping pie plates on his stationary squads.

 

i played a game a long time ago as guard against chaos marines and had all my troops camped in my deployment zone. my opponent had no ordance so couldnt get remotely close to my troops without being gunned down. if he had a defiler in his army there is no way i could have deployed like that and hoped to win.

[chillin]

I also guessing your IG army would have had no problem killing the AV 12 defiler on turn 1  (turn 2 max) either. BC of there free "tank hunters"  CF's tend to have plenty of ML's if not LC's as well.

[the jeske]

how about a pair of defilers, one at each end of your deployment zone, with indirect fire?

That is not the case since gav dex.

 

 

He doesnt like your min-maxing? HAHAHAHA!

he is playing foot slogging fists with 1 pod , that is almost as casual as it gets .

[oreaper84]

infiltration is going to be your friend in this game. If your running ahrim anyways id mech up a lil and outflank with some squads o slaneesh. whether thats noise marines or troops its you call, but the extra 1 init is going to mean loads if you get to grips. Termicide can work if you do multiple units. Cultists in reserve will help greatly for later game grabs on objectives. A raider would be nice, but if pedro and friends pick it as the threat its essentially a 230pt distraction. I would absolutly bring a drake every game....but just one. Its not bad form to bring a single flier no matter how OP your opponent thinks they are. 2 is being a little cheesey but one is just tool in your toolkit. Olits are your call, but havoc smap could wreck soem face if they are properly spammed (what your great at 24" huh? well heres 24 str 7 shots at 36 :) If you wanna bring bikes, bring em cheap as chips and maxed out squad size.

 

the abaove is for friendly yet slightly competative play. that being said noise marines would ruin his day, spam blastmasters and simply remove targets that whatever else you bring would be hurt by. if he though oblits and drakes were bad, these will make him cry and at 48 inches no less

[Deadlight]

no indirect fire, shows how long its been between games for me.

[ChaosReigns]

Thanks for the advice guys. Your input is much appreciated.

Even though my strongest inclination is to field units I like lore-wise or aesthetically, I do have the models to do the Blastmaster spam, so I'll certainly be giving that a try, in conjunction with the Termicide, if I should run up against any Crimson Fists gunlines in the future. I had actually briefly considered the possibility of using Blastmaster spam a few days ago, but 40k isn't (sadly) at the top of my list as far as priorities go at the moment, so I haven't actually drafted up a list as yet, or anything.

On the matter of Defilers, the issue is that nothing short of AV 14 seems to be able to survive a turn of shooting from both squads of Devastators with Tank Hunters. That in tandem with Kantor's podding melta brigade effectively precludes using vehicles of any description, even up to and including Lander Raiders. As I described in the Planet of Sorcerers forum, the first time he fielded this gunline list I had a Land Raider, a Defiler and two Vindicators on the field. All of the vehicles bit it on turn 1 having achieved nothing, despite the fact that I had gotten first turn (except the Land Raider, which lasted until turn 3). Between the Devs, podding melta Sternguard, and the multitudes of units with 2+ to wound against everything, that list invalidates huge swathes of the units Chaos can field, and in particular a lot of the better ones. In short, that's principally what I find frustrating about facing Kantor and the Imperial Fists chapter tactics.

On another (albeit related) note guys, in response to the possibility of me taking Heldrake(s) and nine Oblits I'm hearing rumblings of more vicious lists to come. For example, twenty Terminators riding in on the coat-tails of a Drop Pod (which can apparently get a locator beacon?), supposedly leaving half of his points left over for Sternguard/Devastators spam akin to the above list. Oh, and the cherry on top of the cake, I'm told that in the Fall of Orpheus from Forge World, there's a Space Marine tank called a Damocles Command Vehicle which takes up no force organization chart slot and grants the player an additional orbital bombardment for the base cost of a Chaos Marine squad. If that's the case, I'll certainly be facing, in addition to everything else, four orbital bombardments. Fun.

Oh, and it also seems that the Space Marines codex is intent upon telling the Chaos codex "anything you can do..." because I'm told that the Space Marines are capable of fielding six fliers (some as elites, apparently), so three Storm Talons and three Storm Ravens. I'm sure I'll be facing that delight shortly as well.

As a final note, what's the deal with the Caestus Assault Ram? A flier capable of transporting ten Terminators with AV 13 on the front and side (or so I'm told) and some sort of melta cannon that has a normal melta's statline (barring range, presumably) and is, of course, available only to Space Marines.

So, any advice on dealing with the terrors to come?

How does one even shoot down six fliers when Chaos has no dedicated anti-air short of the rather unimpressive flakk missiles and possibly a whole whack-load of Aegis Defense Lines? Even those options are going to fare poorly against AV 13, except perhaps in the highly unlikely event that Games Workshop sees fit to bless the scions of Chaos with some means to access Tank Hunters in the future.

he is playing foot slogging fists with 1 pod , that is almost as casual as it gets .

Wow, that's as casual as it gets and yet, in your estimation, the jeske, the go-to method for beating it is the most cranked up list Chaos can field ie. Heldrake/Oblits spam. If Chaos really has to resort to that degree of min-maxing to beat as casual as it gets, this codex is a far worse book than even I had reckoned, and I would already have described it as painfully mediocre and verging on mono-build in competitive play.

[the jeske]

Wow, that's as casual as it gets and yet, in your estimation, the jeske,

the go-to method for beating it is the most cranked up list Chaos can

field ie. Heldrake/Oblits spam. If Chaos really has to resort to that

degree of min-maxing to beat as casual as it gets, this codex is a far

worse book than even I had reckoned, and I would already have described

it as painfully mediocre and verging on mono-build in competitive play.

Not the sm players foult chaos can be rather limited in its builds.

 

Let me show you something .

 

 

 

Kantor

 

-Chapter Master w/ the Primarch's Wrath.

-10 x Sternguard (with whatever heavy weapons he happens to slap on 'em).

-9 x Sternguard w/ a plasma gun, melta and several combi-meltas in a Drop Pod.

-5 x Sternguard, usually just a basic squad.    

 

-10x Tacs w/ plasma gun and plasma cannon (sometimes he fields two squads of Tacs using largely the same build).

-10 x Scouts, 9 with snipers, 1 with a heavy bolter that has Hellfire rounds.

 

-5 x Devastators w/ 2 lascannons, 2 missile launchers

-5 x Devastators w/ 3 x missile launchers, 1 plasma cannon

 

-1 Whirlwind Scorpius.

 

 

 scouts down to 5 with snipers no hvy bolter, but cloaks in. second chapter master out .

Devs re armed to 4 RL , second unit changed for grav centurions.

5 man sternguard out.

2x10 combi weaponssternguard in pods

1xironclad in a pod .

 

first turn blows up 3-4 vehicle of the not serpent/am on a landing pad kind , and he doesn't care about LoS. even of the second sort it should kill 1-2 .

Ah and it is still a casual list . no ally , no FW , no formations , no inq to get cheap divination and servo skulls. no fortifications.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and it also seems that the Space Marines codex is intent upon

telling the Chaos codex "anything you can do..." because I'm told that

the Space Marines are capable of fielding six fliers (some as elites,

apparently), so three Storm Talons and three Storm Ravens. I'm sure I'll

be facing that delight shortly as well.

its around 1000pts with upgrades , at 1500 he plays a skew list and at more you can ignore the flyers as long as your not trying to run meq as your troops. Also if FW is in . ally in IG take 9 saber weapon platforms.

[ChaosReigns]

I don't think anyone is disputing that Space Marines have the better book, or can make more diverse efficacious lists. I was merely observing that it is, at least in my opinion, rather sad (as far as the relatively minor tragedies of the table top go, anyway) that Chaos must resort to using the same brutal sledge hammer tactics against everything from 'as casual as it gets' to 'tournament hard-core', or at least, if the Chaos player is to have a reasonable chance of winning.

 

Anyway, if he does start loading up on fliers I'll have a look at the Saber Platforms.

 

Taking three squads of Havocs with autocannons could actually be a decent (and less cheesy) alternative to the nine Obliterators. Unfortunately I don't have any Havocs at the moment, let alone any autocannons. I'll have to look into getting some, probably from Forge World. In the mean-time, a number of Blastmasters and Obliterators in conjunction with Termicide might prove to be very nasty indeed.

 

Conversely, I would tend to agree that Chaos Marines certainly have the potential, at least, to be much better in melee than their loyalist brethren. Rushing with Raptors, Spawn, Bikers and several large squads of Chaos Marines (properly outfitted and upgraded, of course) might well be the answer. I like the idea of Outflanking a unit or two outfitted for melee as well, but just a couple issues:

 

First of all, if I were to take Ahriman or Huron, would the Chaos Marines and the Rhino count as two units for the purposes of infiltration, or just one?

 

Secondly, are units not prohibited from charging on the turn they arrive via Outflank?

 

Actually, on a related note with regards to Infiltration, I was under the impression that units that infiltrate are not able to charge for the first game turn, rather than the first player turn. Is that not the case?

 

Thanks again guys.

[chillin]

You can not assault the turn you out flank.

CSM's in their rino are 1 unit, as a rino is a dedicated transport and not a unit in itself.

[Hellios]

You can not assault the turn you out flank.

CSM's in their rino are 1 unit, as a rino is a dedicated transport and not a unit in itself.

 

Yeah... but you can DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM SIREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chillin]

Of course you can shoot , but that's not what he ask.

[Someblindmarineplayer]

This may have already been stated but i would take 3 baledrakes, 9 obliterators, huron(to infiltraite obliterators into assault cannon range) a ton of cultists to clog up the field and a defense line with a quad gun for huron to shoot down that nasty drop pod.

[chillin]

Assault cannon ?? Over twin linked plaz, LC, multimelta, and plaz cannon ?? And surely your not saying you would put Huron in a ADL ?? + 1 BS at the expense of keeping the guy with tyrants claw, 4+ invul, a hvy flamer, and Hamadrya out of CC ??

[khurdur]

just take 2-3 land raiders, a mace prince and an axe prince (both with wings) and a few troops and push across the board. One LR will be deepstruck. Or you could keep it in reserve to escape the initial drop pod, but thats a lot fo time fot he rest of your army to be shot up.

 

And yes, just one drake will shred him. Don't listen to what he says, its part of your codex. its one, not 2-3.

He seems to want you to take a very generic, subpar list. the marines codex tends to beat us in that.

 If you have some noise marines you can blow him to bits from behind cover with blastmasters.

A ten man unit of bikers (but go for MoS and FNP banner, they always go better for me, T6 nurgle is a gimmick), upgraded with vets 2x melta and with a lv.3 spell familiar bike telepath sorc. Or ally them in from Black Legion and use the last thingy of Yuranthos and blind the lot of them. let him shoot at them all he likes.

Plenty of ways to win.

.