Attack bikes vs land speeders

[Grizzly_bear]

Morning ladies and gents, as the title says attack bikes vs Land speeders

 

I've made my mind up on 3 attack bikes with multi meltas which is 165 points vs 3 land speeders with 2x MM at a 240 points.

 

Now that's quite a big points difference, my overall goal is to use either unit in synergy to my tank hunting devs.m, causing that double threat.

 

I just wanted to see what people's views are and seeing more people's pros and cons really.

 

Thanks for any feed back

 

Also sorry if this has been covered but I couldn't find anything concerning this with the new codex release

[knife&fork]

Speeders used to be ok, at least if you had need for strictly suicide melta or the inexpensive dual heavy bolters who could stand off at range. These days there's so much long range S6-7 shooting that I will probably not use my speeders until something drastic happens with the meta. A lot of it ignores cover too, and speeder squads will melt in assault vs anything with a krak grenade.

 

3 MM bikes are nice, but if you want to save some points going 2 MM and 1 HB is good too. The HB will probably one round of fire before the melta is in range and then he'll eat the first wounds the squad takes. I rarely get to use all 3 MM when I bring them, even if I try to juggle the wounds. 

 

I say go with either 2*2 MM attack bikes or one squad of 3 MM, swap for HB if you need the points somewhere else. 

[Grizzly_bear]

Thanks a lot fella. I was just thinking and wondering how to get multi meltas into my lists without putting them in dev squads (waste of points I feel tbh) so that why I was leaning to the 3 x MM attack bikes to work along side my 3 x ML devs & 1 LC using the attack bikes to hit the tank/walkers first....if they only damage it in terms of hull points then its not a ideal situation but then the dev can then target it, I'm talking about big threat tanks I.E. land raiders/Vindis and the like

[DarkGuard]

In general attack bikes are better now, largely because of the fact that they have true T5 and are therefore hard to instant kill.

 

Speeders are quite fragile, and often cost more. However, they are more versatile.

 

For fast melta, go for attack bikes, unless you really want to deep strike something cheap. For range, Speeders all the way, I still like my pair of Typhoons.

[shandwen]

i would say that speeders would have better survival chances the more rhinos and land speeder storms you have, and attack bikes will live longer the more infantry and bikes you have, so it is dependant on the rest of your army build.

[Grizzly_bear]

i would say that speeders would have better survival chances the more rhinos and land speeder storms you have, and attack bikes will live longer the more infantry and bikes you have, so it is dependant on the rest of your army build.

My list usually consists of

 

4 tac squads (melta gun, combi, power maul & rhino)

 

Dev squad (3 ML's & 1PC or LC)

 

TFC

 

And always at least 1 squad of stern gaurd

 

Them squads and units are my foundations 95% of the time.

 

So 3 MM attack bikes work well?

[DarkGuard]

i would say that speeders would have better survival chances the more rhinos and land speeder storms you have, and attack bikes will live longer the more infantry and bikes you have, so it is dependant on the rest of your army build.

 

Well that goes without saying, it's the doctrine of target saturation. However, attack bikes more or less have the durability of tanks, so they'd also add saturation to any build which uses Rhinos etc.

[UltraTacSgt]

I use my two Typhoon Speeders all the time and they rarely die thanks to good target saturation, but they are long ranged fire support, and my foe has more important things to shoot at.

 

If the role you want them to fill is to get up close then you are definitely going to be better off with attack bikes. My Speeders survive because they are unassuming and far away and easy to ignore. If they were to get up into close range and where carrying something as scary as 6 Multimeltas I don't think they'd make it through the day.

 

Also, like Darkguard said, if you don't have much other hard target saturation then the Attack Bikes will take heat off of your Rhino's.

 

 Landspeeders would be better if you were looking to deepstrike them on a homing beacon or something, but otherwise they are better used at long ranged roles.

[knife&fork]

Armor saturation won't help speeders because speeders isn't something you need anti tank fire to take down. They are a very thankful target for just about anything S5 and above. 

[Grizzly_bear]

The thing that is making me steer away from speeders is that one bolter marine can take one down where as the attack bike has a better save against AP4 or more and the same cover same as a speeders

[hallodx]

One nasty trick I can think of is provide LoS blocking. Pick a shorter stick and they can almost block any infantrys' LoS. It may make it a give away KP but sometime it can buy your army a turn.

Image a deavstator centurion with grav cannon joined by Shadowsun, nothing can stop them from destroying your unit one by one, but here comes a Land Speeder, blocked one or two's sight, even after moving still not all of them can see a proper target. The LS should be destroyed by other unit or centurions themselves, but here it had bought your army time to do something with his, maybe kill more his troop or charge those centurions or whatever.

Just a thought.

[Grizzly_bear]

One nasty trick I can think of is provide LoS blocking. Pick a shorter stick and they can almost block any infantrys' LoS. It may make it a give away KP but sometime it can buy your army a turn.

Image a deavstator centurion with grav cannon joined by Shadowsun, nothing can stop them from destroying your unit one by one, but here comes a Land Speeder, blocked one or two's sight, even after moving still not all of them can see a proper target. The LS should be destroyed by other unit or centurions themselves, but here it had bought your army time to do something with his, maybe kill more his troop or charge those centurions or whatever.

Just a thought.

That's a good idea too fella thank you also

[Ming]

Overall, they both are great! But they have different applications and bring different efficiencies.

 

Landspeeders can be held in reserves to deep strike directly into the game where you need them, and get a Jink save. S4 oppoenents need a 6 to pen them. The model has 2 hull points.

 

Attack bikes can zoom forward every turn, and can get a jink save. S4 oppoenents need a 5 to wound them, after which you get a 3+ save, and the model has 2 wounds.

 

Attack bikes and landspeeders can pretty much have the same individual weapons, except for the Typhoon missile launchers. This is where speeders really excel - and give you a great stand-off capability and ability to damage infantry-rich opponents.

 

In terms of a starting-out player, attack bikes can help you fill out full biker squads, and are softer on the wallet. 6 bikers and 2 attack bikes give you the ability to combat squad during deployment if needed.

 

I use both regularly. Attack bikes seem to last longer, in part because the opponent does not see them as the threat they can be, and the fract they can ride behind other vehicles or terrain until you need them.

[Gideon999]

I have a pair of twin multimelta speeders and they do wreck face but the do always die the next turn.   They are only worth it when you can either use them to insta-kill some heavy infantry that cant hit them back (a short list of foes to be sure) or on a deep strike as has been said above.  

 

The bikes are generally less mobile (if only slightly) but much hardier.   Sure you have only 1 multimelta per model compared to 2 on the speeder, but they are harder to kill and cheaper to boot.

[UltraTacSgt]

Armor saturation won't help speeders because speeders isn't something you need anti tank fire to take down. They are a very thankful target for just about anything S5 and above. 

 

 This is only true if you are talking about short ranged Speeders, for long ranged Typhoon Speeders armor saturation is the difference between life and death.

 

 You won't be shooting Lascannons or Missiles at Speeders when Vindi's/Predators/Landraiders are bearing down on you, and you won't be shooting Autocannons at Speeders when you have loaded Rhino's and Dreads to deal with. Other Str 5-6 weapons tend to be 36" range and can be easily avoided by staying out of range with your Speeders. On top of all of that, you will be targeting and killing LC/ML/AC weapons as threats to your heavier armor so by later rounds there is nothing left to shoot your Speeders.

 

 Proper use of ranged Speeders will never see them closer than 34" to most targets. Saturation will keep you plenty safe.

[Gideon999]

Agreed on the Typhoons.   They are the best pattern for general use and to actually last a match with the possible exception of the twin heavy bolter versions (which are a little shorter range but generally considered low enough threat that they dont get shot first).   I have 3 of them, and they are usually either the first thing dead (since my regular opponants know how much damage they can do) or the last thing dead.

[aquamarine]

Another vote here for Typhoons. Their huge effective range (when accounting for movement and weaponry ranges), high rate of fire on the move and their ability to 'pop up attack' makes them invaluable in a fire support role.

 

But then I use 3 x MM Attack bikes in my BA army and they rock too, as a mailed melta fist.

 

Both are excellent tools for different jobs. If you are just looking for a melta tool though, it's attack bikes.

[Grizzly_bear]

Thanks for all the reviews and reasons back guys, really a massive helping hand

 

 

Another vote here for Typhoons. Their huge effective range (when accounting for movement and weaponry ranges), high rate of fire on the move and their ability to 'pop up attack' makes them invaluable in a fire support role.

 

But then I use 3 x MM Attack bikes in my BA army and they rock too, as a mailed melta fist.

 

Both are excellent tools for different jobs. If you are just looking for a melta tool though, it's attack bikes.

I was looking for a a fast tank hunting unit that will work very well and work in synergy with my tank hunting (IF rules) devs which as said above will be sporting 3 x ML and 1 LC. Ill try both tbh and see what happens.

 

Again thank you for all the advice and help

[Azash]

to the OP what your looking for is attack bikes with MM's. If you have the points with MM's its pretty simple 1 is better than none, 2 is better than 1, and three is better than 2 :) .

 

Attack bikes w/ MM's are really a niche unit as they really don't excel at anything but killing armor especially heavy armor. They don't have enough shots to effectively hunt MC's or Heavy Troops and they don't have the mid range volume of fire (3 TL bolter shots won't do it) to go after blob units. The downside of Attack bikes is if you run into a list that is armor light you have a unit that will be marginally effective for the rest of the game. In effect they become a screening/support unit. Where the Attack bike shines is survivability and a big part of that is it's a lower profile model than the Land Speeder...this means its easier to use intervening terrain to obtain a cover save. The one draw back of Attack bikes survivability is the range of the MM which draws you in close to all the things that can really kill a T5 two wound model. However the relentless and fast part of the bike does help to insure you will usually get first shot before taking fire.

 

Typhoons are good against light and medium armor but are more of a swiss army knife type unit. Since you have the option of a second weapon they come with a HB or perhaps a HF or even a MM. Basically your paying a premium for the flexibility of the speeder. The Typhoon depending on it's secondary weapon can take on Light to Heavy Armor, Heavy Infantry (in one tournament I lost 9 of 10 marines in a tac squad to 6 frag missile hits in one round), MC's, and blob units. The higher profile and more fragile nature of the speeder makes it an easier target but it tends to be less intimidating and w/ the typhoon it allows it to sit at range keeping it away from allot of threats on the board. However with Missile Launchers being pretty much common with marine armies, LC's and Lance weapons everywhere and all being the same range and all being basically insta penetrate weapons on a speeder being far away won't always keep the unit alive. Speeders work best if they have something to draw your opponents focus away so they can do there work.