Black Legion Supplement Hardcover Release

[Dammeron]

Reading my hard cover copy, it's actually better than I recall: for the first time, we have Abaddon demonstrating a wide array of quite complex states and emotions: his growing "...sick of war..." following the Sons of Horus retreat from the material universe and his subsequent, shamanistic quests throughout the Eye of Terror, his return to the legion on the cusp of its almost total destruction as a visionary, bitterly twisted prophetic figure...it's quite magnificent, in a mythological sense: Abaddon in this text has become every inch the archetypal anti-hero; a kind of dark messiah or prophet archetype, rather than simply being your classic Big Bad Villain: he has philosophy, he has scope and vision and unbelievable powers of persuasion, manipulation and oratory. More than that, his vision is less blinkered than that of Horus, who was largely manipulated into becoming the pawn of Chaos: Abaddon serves the Chaos Gods and their agendas willingly, since they accord with his own. He wants universal apocalypse: for reality itself to become a deranged, daemon infested Hell/Paradise (depending on your perspective).

 

We also have some interesting details about the other legions, which I imagine will be fleshed out in their respectuve supplements: early on during their tenure within the Eye of Terror, it seems to be implied that the Emperor's Children are the largest, most coherent and powerful of what remains of the legions, until their shattering by The newborn Black Legion's retaliation. There's also mention of a feud between the Emperor's Children and the Word Bearers that hasn't been referenced before. Looking forward to seeing what that's all about. Also, any ambiguity as to Fulgrim's fate has been swept away: he is definitely alive, definitely daemonic and seemingly quite happy to tag along with Abaddon's crusades at this point.

 

I also love the emphasis on the Black Legion as a vast structure of infinitely various warbands, all with their own idiosyncracies, philosophies, symbolism etc etc. There is so much potential for character building for individual Black Legion players; so much scope for conversion, myth making etc. It's certainly one of the best products in background terms GW have released in a Space Marine's age. I can only hope that any subsequent supplements are half as inspiring.

[daveNYC]

The Emperor's Children were the largest and most coherent?  I guess the writer didn't read Angel Exterminatus, because even this early in the Heresy the EC are a bunch of deranged nutters who can't go ten minutes without snorting, injecting, or humping something.

 

Do they give any reason why he would want a universal apocalypse?  I can get wanting to tear down the Imperium, but what's the upside for letting Chaos run rampant?

[Dark Disciple]

Its more like breaking open the gates of hell and driving a warp storm straight to Terra than letting Chaos run rampant.

Abaddon wants to funnel Chaos so that he can use the Daemon Primarchs and Legions of Daemons to bear the brunt of the fighting.

[Iron Skull Mask]

1) It's a heck of a lot easier to shave mutations off than it is to sculpt them out of nothing

 

2) After 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror, I don't care what you looked like going in or what your stance on mutations or chaos worship or anything else is. You have chosen to live for 10 millennia in a non-euclidean hellscape where the only physical laws are the mercurial whims of laughing gods. If you're coming out at all, you are coming out mutated, augmented, 'gifted' if not downright possessed. Form follows function in the eye of terror, literally. Armor fuses with skin and grows chitinous plates, weapons grow teeth and claws, and gain a life of their own as they feed on the souls of those they slay, warriors inherit the daemonic attention and infernal favor of those they ley low, becoming infused with the dark majesty of chaos whether they bend their knee to daemonic masters or no. Those who are feared grow more fearsome, their visage taking on a nightmarish countenance. Those who are successful grow mighty, neverborn flocking in their wake whether they call upon them or not. Those who are powerful simply grow, until they dwarf even the stature of other astartes.

 

These are not things chosen by the chaos marines of the Eye of Terror, but rather merely the fundamental reality of the realm in which they reside. Chaos is a real thing in 40k and in the eye it is everything. One does not need to worship it to be touched by it - rather one can't help but be touched by it - resistance would be as futile as a drowning man completely submerged in the water, with no land for miles in any direction, attempting to swat away the sea.

 

 

And besides, if you want your chaos marines to look like loyalist marines, you can always buy loyalist marine models. Or more likely 30k stuff from forgeworld.

 

But try not to forget the name of our faction: not 'traitor' space marines, not 'renegade' or 'heretic' space marines. Chaos space marines. Playing Chaos space marines and expecting to field an army free from any touch of chaos is like expecting to be able to play a necron army with no robots in it.

 

I don't believe that chaos affects every CSM the same way. That would be kind of un-chaotic imo. Also, there's a reason why it is Tzeench who is linked to mutations most of all (Lord of Change). I also strongly doubt that it is easier to shave of the mutations from the new chosen than to glue some bits from the mutation sprue to CSM (which rarely someone ever does). In my opinion a new kit for CSM should offer as much options as possible, and not force a certain concept of chaos influence on us customers.

[Prot]

I'll be picking this book up for sure. I've flirted with the idea of doing Black Legion on and off for a while but always wanted to wait on a hardcopy of the codex.

 

I've heard nothing but positive things about the background in it. Some of the funner psyker abilities and -character- added ruleswise seem fun. Can't wait to get this!

[Sception]

The character added ruleswise is kind of meh.  A few of the artifacts are alright, but the warlord traits, while not terrible, don't feel any more 'black legiony' than those in the parent book, and as mentioned, a lot of the other rules fail to support, actively subvert, or even directly contradict the narrative built by the fluff.  As for that fluff - the stuff for Abaddon and the crusades is great, as is the description of non-Black Legion Sons of Horus warbands - brief though it is.  The descriptions of a few individual subfactions within the Black Legion are ok, but not great.  The fluff is particularly lacking when it comes to building up Black Legion personalities other than Abaddon.

 

Think of it as an 'Abaddon Supplement' instead of a 'Black Legion supplement' - detailing specifically Abaddon's history and goals, with rules describing Abaddon's personal forces - which makes the troop chosen and vets requirement make more sense - it fits for the Warmaster's personal warband, less so for the Legion as a whole.

 

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One doesn't just add mutation sprue bits to generic space marine models for the same reason one doesn't just shave off all the chaos detailing from the chosen.  It tends to look bad.  The chosen and raptor models present mutations that are integrated into the model's overall appearance and aesthetic.

 

Frankly, I would consider it a good thing if chaos had more of a unique aesthetic overall, instead of being 'spikey loyalists', something to help build a distinct identity for the faction.  Again, if you want non-mutated 'traitor' marines, there's always 30k models, they cover that aesthetic better than anything from GW ever will, and aren't even that much more expensive than GW stuff anymore, what with GW prices rising much faster than FW prices over the last several years.  Heck, since FW stuff is purchased in pounds and ordered from Britain regardless of where you are, there are many places where GW's ridiculous embargos and absurd currency exchange policies make FW stuff cheaper, even with shipping from half way across the globe.

[Prot]

I was thinking particularly (ruleswise) of the psyker power. I really like this. I've never been a fan with how they did the cult powers in the main Chaos book so some of these artifacts are very welcome for me.

 

+edited out plural+

[Sception]

There's exactly one psyker power in the Black Legion supplement, purchased via an artifact.  It's a good one, sure, but your use of the plural is throwing me off, here?

[chillin]

I find it "interesting" (yeah, lets call it that) that if you want to use the BL supplement you are forced to buy the VotLW , 2-3 pts a model for some squads , so 60 xtra pts EZ, and not particularly useful, while SM's get chapter tactics for FREE that are much better then VotLW . Then get SC's that amplify those chapter tactics.

[the jeske]

But we got more new models and the helldrake . All marines can do is troll MC and FMC a bit and that is all . We make whole type of builds unplayable[well where unplayable is too hard to play for a random sunday w40ker] , that has to count for something. We also have to remember that pre 6th ed , the DT told us that 6th is going to be the edition of chaos . the time we come back as the big bads as the ones that everyone wants to stop , including nids and necron . It is possible that the chaos codex and BL were just a prelude to that.

 

 

 

Of course not! But the manliness of a codex (or its authors) in rules or
fluff has nothing to do with the manliness of the models' or artwork's
design aesthetic (or that of the artists producing it).

 

Ze wut? the old marine says . look at me , I have to drive horns in to my helmet to have a sport fighting outside of the eye of terror . The good old zerkers plant LoS blocking bunny ears to go even further . They are manly , not carring how they look . Then new marines with their weedy spikes and small horns . What do they say? that they care about how they looks , that is practicly eldar level of thinking .And eldar are not manly.

[Sception]

The new models have spikes and horns because they actually have spikes and horns. The old models have spikes and horns because they went out of their way to staple them to their armor. The ones who 'care too much about how they look' are the ones inconveniencing themselves on purpose to achieve a (stupid) look. And if you want to talk about manliness, the manlier ones are the larger ones, with better proportions and poses, stronger torsos, more powerful arms and legs, the ones that aren't spindly models bent and bow legged under the weight of their over sized backpacks and ridiculous purely decorative spikes and horns. This really isn't even a question, J.

[Dravenguild]

Still, things like that should be optional and not shoe horned into the models, Chaos marines can have "baroque" armor without leering faces and eyeballs growing everywhere, some of the best chaos marine artwork has suitably twisted and baroque armor without cheapening the over all line with blobs of mutations and doodads for no apparent raisin.

[Sception]

I respectfully but firmly disagree, especially as it is not possuble to make such well integrated detail 'optional', and your desired aesthetic will be better covered by the 30k line, regardless of whatever GW prodeces.

[chillin]

Yeah I agree, you can certainly make a piece of art work with a detail and look that would be impossible to mass produce on a 2" model. I also agree that the old csm models with the horns that were 1/2 the size of the model are pretty silly and "unrealistic" looking, but it's what we had at the time, so my army is full of them and I don't plan on replacing them all (esp since 2 lame dex's in a row have basically made me stop playing chaos).

[daboarder]

Abby has finally taken his place alongside archaon as a true bringer of the end times

[Prot]

Sorry for the long post. Please be aware of some minor spoilers on the codex ahead.

 

I finally got a copy and put some time into reading it this weekend....

 

I really liked what I read thus far (not quite finished). The background is probably 90% of why someone would buy this. Just to repeat what others are saying; finally the Black Crusades are fleshed out a little more, giving meaning and purpose to their targets.

 

(On a side note, perhaps the best time I've ever had being a Chaos player was during the Eye of Terror Campaign. Reporting battles to GW's website and having organized email lists with targets, etc, was perhaps the most fun I've ever had in this game. I realize it was a monumental task organizing it, but it was a gaming event truly held on a global scale that brought all players together. The fact that fluff, and game changing stories were written as a result of that campaign was just icing on the cake. That was a historical gaming moment for GW that they have yet to equal all those years ago.)

 

I've always loved the idea of Black Legion but really didn't like how crappy Abe was portrayed. He finally gets his due respect and is fleshed out accordingly.  He does come off as a bad ass, but someone who has.... I dunno how to say it, but 'matured' (?) since his days of hot heated beatings and school yard bullying tactics with the Mourningval (sp?).

 

A very, very long time ago I read a '40K background' paper that was given to me that was allegedly from GW and it had the entire story fleshed out of the Heresy, the Emperor, star children talk, etc, etc... It had the moment where Horus is in this epic fight with dad, and the lights go out... Horus is near death. The Daemons, sensing defeat, leave him to die. It is for a brief moment that Horus has clarity (?) of thought without daemonic intervention, and he wonders what has happened to him, what had he done? His regret seems deep, and he is full of remorse.  In this version, Horus realizes his father could have killed him at any time.

 

Are these the things that Abe found 'weak' in Horus?

 

In reading the Horus Heresy it does come off that Horus is a puppet. Erebus and his secret society operated under his nose, within many legions, without detection. The Word Bearers seem to hold all the cards. But we see that still Abe looked up to him.

 

I really like the light that this codex sheds on Abe. For so long he just came off as a black hat with no brains, and paper bag motivations. Finally we see he does have victories, real victories under his belt. He DOES have the ability to assemble the Legions, whole or in part and win the favour of the Primarchs.

 

Where is this going? Who knows. Will these mini-tales of his crusades be fleshed out in novels? Or will the novels show us how deep the rabbit hole goes? I'm definitely going to find out.

 

Rules wise there isn't much here, is there? Some things they really missed the boat on:

- Possessed. This would have been a amazing opportunity to make possessed work, or even become -functional-. The background is right here under our noses with the Sons of Horus falling to initial possessions and -then- learning control. Totally sucks that it didn't translate into rules.

 

- Drop Pods. Of course, I know it's been mentioned 4.9 billion times, but this has me banging my head against the walls.

 

- Mutilators. Kind of reminds me of the possessed as a missed opportunity. The stories of Horus clones running around- Franken-Horus' would have been a good launch point for something here. I'd love to read more about that story. I mean were any of the clones capable of tying their shoes? Or were they all just raving lunatics? This could be cool to explore.

[Xenith]

Playing Chaos space marines and expecting to field an army free from any touch of chaos is like expecting to be able to play a necron army with no robots in it

 

Just reading through this thread, it's posts like the above that provide a new point of view on CSM than enriches my experience of the hobby, thanks, Mal.

[Xenith]

Double post, please delete.

[Dravenguild]

I respectfully but firmly disagree, especially as it is not possuble to make such well integrated detail 'optional', and your desired aesthetic will be better covered by the 30k line, regardless of whatever GW prodeces.

 

Certainly some of the sons of horus miniatures straddle the line of discord....and rhyme.. But nonetheless I prefer plastic over poorly cast and warped forgeworld any day. I washed my hands of that filth a long while ago.

 

I respectfully agree to disagree with you, and that's the beauty of chaos. We all have our own path, which is 8 fold. So I will continue to shave and cut any hideously deformed spikes and horns where I deem fit, and if they keep going over the top for when we eventually get havocs and plastic chosen I will give GW even less of my money.

[Sception]

You can always buy loyalist models, if you want plastic chaos models that just look like regular old space marines.

[Tenebris]

The way I see it, polished plate = loyalist space marines, spikey bitz and mutations = chaos space marines; overall I would love an update of the basic Chaos infantry with the more organic, more chaos and more mutated look like the miniatures from Dark Vengeance. Also I love the new Sorcerer, Warpsmith and Dark Apostle, great miniatures all and perfectly in line with "chaos", which to me means unrecognizable power armor mark, tubes that have become organic, components that are added to the armor as much for an intimidating look as well as to maim and wound in combat, organic elements that speak volumes of the true corruption of the marine in question, the moment where the man, machine and soul are one in the Warp. 

 

Afterall everything has an echo in the Warp, a bolter that spilled blood in the Great Crusade and followed the betrayal of his wielded in the Horus Heresy would have a dire, wrathful and avenging machine spirit, a spirit that would echo in the chaos of the Warp and consequently warp into a more organic thing, a true extension of his wielder, the weapon once a tool for the warrior has now become the expression of the warrior. That is the beauty of Chaos, everything has a significance and a soul. 

[the jeske]

But mutations and spikes don't work so well for Iron Dudes and Caster dudes.

[Sception]

Not sure why they wouldn't - particularly for caster dudes* who if anything are closer to the distorting influence of the warp - but that's neither here nor there.

 

EDIT:  *unless you mean 'thousand sons', in which case, sure, after the rubric they don't mutate so much... but before the rubric they mutated way more than anybody, the entire point of the rubric was that the remnants of the legion were dying out due to rampant, uncontrolled, uncontained mutation.  Non-mutated thousand sons armor, as though their forms were fixed from before the heresy, don't make much sense to me, because if they had survived the aftermath of the heresy in such a state the rubric would never have happened.

 

I mean, unless we're talking about representing the disembodied spirits of 'slain' rubric marines, bound back into new armor stolen from uncorrupted loyalist stores.  But then, again, there's always loyalist models for that.

 

 

just my own take on things.

[the jeske]

But rubric cleaned the 1ksons from any mutation , they armors are not mutated , the sorcs maybe , specialy if they wearing demon power armor , but 1ksons are runing around in non mutated power armor suits .

[Sception]

Didn't think it patched their armors, but if that's the lore and I had it wrong, so be it.