Black Legion Supplement Hardcover Release

[A D-B]

Reading my hard cover copy, it's actually better than I recall: for the first time, we have Abaddon demonstrating a wide array of quite complex states and emotions: his growing "...sick of war..." following the Sons of Horus retreat from the material universe and his subsequent, shamanistic quests throughout the Eye of Terror, his return to the legion on the cusp of its almost total destruction as a visionary, bitterly twisted prophetic figure...it's quite magnificent, in a mythological sense: Abaddon in this text has become every inch the archetypal anti-hero; a kind of dark messiah or prophet archetype, rather than simply being your classic Big Bad Villain: he has philosophy, he has scope and vision and unbelievable powers of persuasion, manipulation and oratory. More than that, his vision is less blinkered than that of Horus, who was largely manipulated into becoming the pawn of Chaos: Abaddon serves the Chaos Gods and their agendas willingly, since they accord with his own. He wants universal apocalypse: for reality itself to become a deranged, daemon infested Hell/Paradise (depending on your perspective).

 

Almost all of my feedback was about making these changes, or they're mentioned in the Black Legion series synopsis which the digital folks were awesome enough to use in the sourcebook's writing. Abaddon post-Heresy and the Black Crusades themselves were the majority of what I weighed in on, but it was a very different book (especially in terms of the Black Crusades) before that. I obviously can't go into detail on what changed between drafts, but originally the Black Legion and Abaddon himself were significantly less successful, and the Black Crusades were significantly smaller-scale.

[Vesper]

Thousands planets, systems, put to the sword, right ?

Yeah, that's something GW rarely built upon, when you think about it. And that's a shame.

Could be awesomely cool if Abaddon was involved in the death of Rogal Dorn. I mean, that would kinda scream "Hey folks, I'm about to end everything you've ever cherished".

[A D-B]

Thousands planets, systems, put to the sword, right ?

Yeah, that's something GW rarely built upon, when you think about it. And that's a shame.

Could be awesomely cool if Abaddon was involved in the death of Rogal Dorn. I mean, that would kinda scream "Hey folks, I'm about to end everything you've ever cherished".

 

I tried that, actually. They were firming up the dates and I said "I want the Black Crusade where Rogal Dorn dies. Could be Book 4 or 5 in the series."

 

But the studio had locked it down in a lesser Black Crusade already.

[Excessus]

But rubric cleaned the 1ksons from any mutation , they armors are not mutated , the sorcs maybe , specialy if they wearing demon power armor , but 1ksons are runing around in non mutated power armor suits .

The original Thousand Sons are cleansed from mutation. Newer recruits wouldn't be so fortunate...

[Vesper]

I tried that, actually. They were firming up the dates and I said "I want the Black Crusade where Rogal Dorn dies. Could be Book 4 or 5 in the series."

But the studio had locked it down in a lesser Black Crusade already.

*Scream of despair*

Edit : Could be linked to Abaddon and his Chosen, still, I guess .

Edit 2 : Or make it a time traveling :cuss, like, Abaddon goes to a part of the Eye where the times runs backwards, and then SMACKS Rogal Dorn on the nose with Drach'Nyen. Well, that would be kinda cheap, I assume. I thought about that perticular Black Crusade (the one that got RG killed). I guess the Chaos Lord that eats his cereals out of the skull of a Primarch might be a big dude in the Eye. The kind of dude Abaddon had to eliminate in order to become "The big dude among big dudes".

[Jareddm]

Thousands planets, systems, put to the sword, right ?

Yeah, that's something GW rarely built upon, when you think about it. And that's a shame.

Could be awesomely cool if Abaddon was involved in the death of Rogal Dorn. I mean, that would kinda scream "Hey folks, I'm about to end everything you've ever cherished".

I tried that, actually. They were firming up the dates and I said "I want the Black Crusade where Rogal Dorn dies. Could be Book 4 or 5 in the series."

But the studio had locked it down in a lesser Black Crusade already.

First denied Vulkan and now Rogal Dorn. Any chance they'll just let you write the death of Sanguinius?

[Karthak]

I've been wondering for a while whether or not I should start following ADB's Black Legion books when they come out. On the one hand: ADB is my favorite Black Library author, and I've enjoyed all his books immensely. On the other hand: it's really hard for me to re-read books where the bad guys win. Dunno why, maybe it's because I've followed the news closely since I was a wee lad, and so I already get so much of "the villain got away clean" in real life that I don't need it in my fiction as well. And a series about effing Abaddon is almost certainly going to be full of that kind of stuff. I don't know if cognitive dissonance is the right word, but I get this weird feeling in my skull when I'm reading a really well written story where I keep hoping that the protagonists fail in all their goals and die horribly like the chaos-poisoned fools they are.

 

My reaction to Guilliman narrowly escaping death: "YES!"

My reaction to Lorgar escaping death several times in The First Heretic and Betrayer: "@/¤(&!"

[Vesper]

Thing is, nobody is the good guy, in the setting.

The Emperor is a galactic douche that has genocided a fair part of the planets he set foot on. Hell, he even created people to do it on a daily basis while he's chilling in his palace made of the bones and blood of innocents.

Guilliman ? The same kind of deluded fool and genocidic monster as Lorgar. The Emperor isn't leading Mankind because he's right, because he's doing the right thing. No, he's just leading Mankind because he can, because he has the power to do so.

There is no good guy, or if there is, they don't live long, because it's simply not their Galaxy. But in the end, whatever, as everyone dies.

Abaddon is pretty mean. He might very well have been the most successful astarte ever (being the most successful general of the most successful legion), so insanely badass people actually take him for the clone of a Primarch. He's the guy that makes the Eye bow before him, after all. It's going to be a fascinating tale.

[Slayer le Boucher]

The difference here is that CSm and Black Legion arn't any more villains that the Imperium or the Emperor are.

 

Because when you read the HH series, you realise what a scumbag the Emperor and the other Primarchs are, and that it really was a matter of time, that things would blow up.

 

Its a matter of perspective.

 

Be it the BL fluff or Betrayer, its the first time in years i had a blast to read Legions/CSM fluff, i've litteraly devoured the book in 18 hours!

 

By the way i loved the bromance between Khârn and Argel Tal, a shame really what happened with him.

 

I really can't wait till we reach the point of the Siege of Terra, and all hell break loose, specially regarding Khârn and Angron.

[Sception]

Actually, I'm pretty sure chaos are bigger villains than the imperium.  Maybe it wasn't once, but lore of recent years has been making the imperium more and more 'the good guys', and chaos was always pretty much 'the evil so evil that all the lesser evils joined together to fight it'.  Sure there's bits here and there about how 'Nurgle is also life' or 'Tzeentch is also inspiration' or whatever, but that never plays out in the actual fiction.  Chaos, daemons, they're never depicted as uplifting or helping or saving anyone, only as furthering death and misery.

 

In fantasy fiction, lawful evil villain striving either for personal power, or working towards a noble goal (say, the survival of the human race) but willing to perform terrible atrocities to achieve it (genocide of aliens, sacrifice of any number of individual humans), while undeniably villainous, will always be a lesser evil than the chaotic, elemental evil literally born of suffering which exists only to inflict that suffering on others.

[Prot]

 

Thousands planets, systems, put to the sword, right ?

Yeah, that's something GW rarely built upon, when you think about it. And that's a shame.

Could be awesomely cool if Abaddon was involved in the death of Rogal Dorn. I mean, that would kinda scream "Hey folks, I'm about to end everything you've ever cherished".

 

I tried that, actually. They were firming up the dates and I said "I want the Black Crusade where Rogal Dorn dies. Could be Book 4 or 5 in the series."

 

But the studio had locked it down in a lesser Black Crusade already.

 

 

Wouldn't Rogal Dorn's demise be better portrayed in an Iron Warriors type of HH novel? That's a long term grudge match I think we're all dying to see. It will be very interesting to see how it plays out versus the little one page story from IA articles written way back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Almost all of my feedback was about making these changes, or they're mentioned in the Black Legion series synopsis which the digital folks were awesome enough to use in the sourcebook's writing. Abaddon post-Heresy and the Black Crusades themselves were the majority of what I weighed in on, but it was a very different book (especially in terms of the Black Crusades) before that. I obviously can't go into detail on what changed between drafts, but originally the Black Legion and Abaddon himself were significantly less successful, and the Black Crusades were significantly smaller-scale.

 

Well I'm glad you did this. I have been one of those people that compared him to an unwanted relative at Christmas dinner. His crusades were largely written as massive failures that really made you wonder how believable this 'Warmaster' is at leading anything. It was way overdue to at least make him look competent... which the Codex does quite nicely.

 

 

 

The difference here is that CSm and Black Legion arn't any more villains that the Imperium or the Emperor are.

 

Because when you read the HH series, you realise what a scumbag the Emperor and the other Primarchs are, and that it really was a matter of time, that things would blow up.

 

Its a matter of perspective.

 

I agree with this. The victors write the history books. The Emperor for all his greatness has this ridiculous short sightedness that has him NOT explaining Chaos, the taint or temptation of the warp to his Sons for whatever reason. The Emperor is known to his people as infallible but he's obviously got serious mother issues that we need to visit on the next Oprah show.

 

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure chaos are bigger villains than the imperium. 

 

To who? To me and you? Certainly.

 

Chaos, just like any other warmongering body is looking to expand. It's looking to survive! Chaos aren't bigger villains imo. They're just trying to roshambo the Emperor before he does it to Chaos. It's about survival, and then conquering for most of us. Chaos is no different.

[Sception]

Chaos is literally made of and exists only to further the suffering of sentient mortal creatures.  Yes, they're the 'more evil' villains.  Elemental evil, with a capitol 'E'.  Not that chaos had to be that way in the fluff.  Again, there is lip service here and there to the chaos gods being more than just giant, self-perpetuating suffering engines, but I have never seen that fluff make it all the way to any of the fiction, or any of the portrayed actions of actual daemons or chaos worshipers or servants.  There's noble intentions or tragic figures who turn to chaos, but after that it's basically a one way trip to torture cult town.

 

Of course, I can only base that impression on what I've actually read.  If anyone has read books where the forces of chaos act in any other manner, where it's clear that such behavior isn't just an act, let me know.

[daveNYC]

Chaos has always been the baddies, it's just that back in the day, they were the baddies that were so bad that they managed to make the Imperium look not totally evil.  I mean sure the Imperium of Man might have incorporated the worst elements of Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, and the Spanish Inquisition, but when compared to what Chaos got up to, it actually seemed reasonable for them to do so.

 

These days though, it's become a bit more of straight 'Chaos bad, Imperium good'. 

[Iron_Within]

Chaos is like eating food, Tzeentch in tiny tiny portions might be inspiration and genius, but he's now a massive factory process, and he wants you tzeentch all the time every day, he doesn't care if you get fat, get diabetes or grow a tentacle, he's tzeentch, a primodial entity of truly inhuman consciousness beyond all understanding, beyond understanding any form of suffering because mortal suffering is so beyond it.

 

Chaos in 30k and 40k isn't the tasty marshmallow, no its grown, it's the stay puff marshmallow man and he's come for your soul Vankman.

 

The only truly "good" character I've seen in almost all 40k lore is Oll Persson, the reason why is out of everyone he is the most human in our sense of the word. He didn't like the Emperor and his schemes or other characters and I think he thinks what the big E has done is wrong.

Abaddon I hope to see more of, to see him more 'human' in a way, y'know as much as an 8 foot tall killing machine that lives in hell can be. He still needs reasons though, aspirations, hopes and fears and all those need justifications.

[Dammeron]

 

Reading my hard cover copy, it's actually better than I recall: for the first time, we have Abaddon demonstrating a wide array of quite complex states and emotions: his growing "...sick of war..." following the Sons of Horus retreat from the material universe and his subsequent, shamanistic quests throughout the Eye of Terror, his return to the legion on the cusp of its almost total destruction as a visionary, bitterly twisted prophetic figure...it's quite magnificent, in a mythological sense: Abaddon in this text has become every inch the archetypal anti-hero; a kind of dark messiah or prophet archetype, rather than simply being your classic Big Bad Villain: he has philosophy, he has scope and vision and unbelievable powers of persuasion, manipulation and oratory. More than that, his vision is less blinkered than that of Horus, who was largely manipulated into becoming the pawn of Chaos: Abaddon serves the Chaos Gods and their agendas willingly, since they accord with his own. He wants universal apocalypse: for reality itself to become a deranged, daemon infested Hell/Paradise (depending on your perspective).

 

Almost all of my feedback was about making these changes, or they're mentioned in the Black Legion series synopsis which the digital folks were awesome enough to use in the sourcebook's writing. Abaddon post-Heresy and the Black Crusades themselves were the majority of what I weighed in on, but it was a very different book (especially in terms of the Black Crusades) before that. I obviously can't go into detail on what changed between drafts, but originally the Black Legion and Abaddon himself were significantly less successful, and the Black Crusades were significantly smaller-scale.

 

I'm greatly looking forward to this, I must say: Abaddon isn't the first character I would have conventionally looked to as the basis for an entire series (that would be  Ahriman or Fabulous Bill), but after what the supplement has provided, there's a vastly greater scope for actual character arcs and development. I'm particularly fascinated by that vaguely alluded to era in which he leaves the Sons of Horus and goes sojourning through the Eye of Terror on what seems to be a messianic or at least shamanistic pilgrimage: what does he see and learn within the boundless tracts of Hell? What secrets does he uncover and what revelations does he experience? It seems that the Abaddon which makes this journey is very different from the one that emerges: a broken soul, unwilling to lay down and surrender, not wanting to live and fight any longer; I imagine it's one of the rare occassions you might be able to drum up some genuine pity for the character.

[A D-B]

 

 

Reading my hard cover copy, it's actually better than I recall: for the first time, we have Abaddon demonstrating a wide array of quite complex states and emotions: his growing "...sick of war..." following the Sons of Horus retreat from the material universe and his subsequent, shamanistic quests throughout the Eye of Terror, his return to the legion on the cusp of its almost total destruction as a visionary, bitterly twisted prophetic figure...it's quite magnificent, in a mythological sense: Abaddon in this text has become every inch the archetypal anti-hero; a kind of dark messiah or prophet archetype, rather than simply being your classic Big Bad Villain: he has philosophy, he has scope and vision and unbelievable powers of persuasion, manipulation and oratory. More than that, his vision is less blinkered than that of Horus, who was largely manipulated into becoming the pawn of Chaos: Abaddon serves the Chaos Gods and their agendas willingly, since they accord with his own. He wants universal apocalypse: for reality itself to become a deranged, daemon infested Hell/Paradise (depending on your perspective).

 

Almost all of my feedback was about making these changes, or they're mentioned in the Black Legion series synopsis which the digital folks were awesome enough to use in the sourcebook's writing. Abaddon post-Heresy and the Black Crusades themselves were the majority of what I weighed in on, but it was a very different book (especially in terms of the Black Crusades) before that. I obviously can't go into detail on what changed between drafts, but originally the Black Legion and Abaddon himself were significantly less successful, and the Black Crusades were significantly smaller-scale.

 

I'm greatly looking forward to this, I must say: Abaddon isn't the first character I would have conventionally looked to as the basis for an entire series (that would be  Ahriman or Fabulous Bill), but after what the supplement has provided, there's a vastly greater scope for actual character arcs and development. I'm particularly fascinated by that vaguely alluded to era in which he leaves the Sons of Horus and goes sojourning through the Eye of Terror on what seems to be a messianic or at least shamanistic pilgrimage: what does he see and learn within the boundless tracts of Hell? What secrets does he uncover and what revelations does he experience? It seems that the Abaddon which makes this journey is very different from the one that emerges: a broken soul, unwilling to lay down and surrender, not wanting to live and fight any longer; I imagine it's one of the rare occassions you might be able to drum up some genuine pity for the character.

 

I think so, too. I'll never stand atop the bell tower and say my own work rocks (since I can't stand reading it) but I'm really proud of the "pilgrim in Hell" idea. Having more and more of his revelations come to light over the course of the series, and so on. One of the first things I ever did for him was the Games Day 2012 Anthology story, where we briefly first saw Abaddon journeying alone through the underworld, after leaving his Legion and hiding the powered-down Vengeful Spirit.

[Wade Garrett]

No offense, ADB, but I'm curious to see you tackling a series where the main character is pretty much required to kick copious amounts of buttock and end on a triumphant note, given how the Night Lords trilogy (SEE First Claw run away from Blood Angels, Red Corsairs, and eldar!) The First Heretic (WATCH Lorgar have a psychological breakdown and have Corax smack the taste out of his mouth) The Emperor's Gift (LEARN why it is a spectacularly bad idea to hack off Logan Grimnar) played out.

 

Given that Book 3 of this trilogy kind of has to end with Abaddon as King of Hell who won the Legion Wars forever...I guess what I'm trying to long windedly ask is if this presents a unique challenge for you as an author?

[chillin]

so many (......) in there it's kind of hard to tell what you are actually saying.

[the jeske]

 

But rubric cleaned the 1ksons from any mutation , they armors are not mutated , the sorcs maybe , specialy if they wearing demon power armor , but 1ksons are runing around in non mutated power armor suits .

The original Thousand Sons are cleansed from mutation. Newer recruits wouldn't be so fortunate...

how would they even get new recruits . they  don't have the gene seed so can't make pre rubric marines and the last time rubric was cast it was cast on a very specific group of people [no idea if it would work on humans or  non 1ksons marines] and required so much power that it was never cast again en mass.

 

 

 

As stories goes , what I like to see is the world from the bottom tiers. The main character always has plot armor [specialy if there is 1+tome planed] , but it is less thicker then for a some dudes that become marines , then someone like abadon. Does not mean tha t abadon is a bad character to write/read about , of course not . But it is more fun for me to read books technicly abadon , but which tell me more about chaos cosmology or the black legion , then be another "Tales of Draigo:Chaos Strikes Back:". Not that I dislike the hackn'slash/heroic type of books , I smuggled Conans in to Russia [and at the time I did it you and your family could get in to serious trouble for that] , when I was a kid.

[daveNYC]

The problem with the main men of Team Chaos is that most of them are either frothing at the mouth lunatics (Khârn and Fabius) or plot armored (Lucius, Erebus, KP, maybe Typhus). You might be able to write a good story that has them in it, but an interesting character arc would be difficult. Ahriman and Abaddon are probably the two easiest/best characters to work with. The biggest issue with Abaddon is that you know how things turn out, but then again the HH series has been pretty badass and the outcome of that has been written in stone for decades.

[Excessus]

 

 

But rubric cleaned the 1ksons from any mutation , they armors are not mutated , the sorcs maybe , specialy if they wearing demon power armor , but 1ksons are runing around in non mutated power armor suits .

The original Thousand Sons are cleansed from mutation. Newer recruits wouldn't be so fortunate...

how would they even get new recruits . they  don't have the gene seed so can't make pre rubric marines and the last time rubric was cast it was cast on a very specific group of people [no idea if it would work on humans or  non 1ksons marines] and required so much power that it was never cast again en mass.

The rubricae are what they are, nothing changes that. They are immortal and is re-summoned into their armours. But the sorcerers aren't immortal in that sense, they die just as well as any other astartes. The rubric stopped the rampant mutations in their geneseed (they are still afflicted by the "regular" ones though), but the original sorcerers still have their geneseed. Also, they would be getting new recruits just as all the rest of the legions get new recruits, assimilating renegades into their ranks or "marinating" promising recruits with either TS geneseed or other stolen geneseed. Only the rubricae stays the same...

[the jeske]

They summon them just as easy as the rubrics . There may not be many people that might want to summon then back after they die , with the whole ethos of backstabing/power struggle all csm have , but  no 1ksons that was alive at the time of rubric being cast is easy to kill . one more or less has to kill his essence at the moment his body dies and that can be done by view beings in w40k .

[daveNYC]

 

 

 

But rubric cleaned the 1ksons from any mutation , they armors are not mutated , the sorcs maybe , specialy if they wearing demon power armor , but 1ksons are runing around in non mutated power armor suits .

The original Thousand Sons are cleansed from mutation. Newer recruits wouldn't be so fortunate...

how would they even get new recruits . they  don't have the gene seed so can't make pre rubric marines and the last time rubric was cast it was cast on a very specific group of people [no idea if it would work on humans or  non 1ksons marines] and required so much power that it was never cast again en mass.

The rubricae are what they are, nothing changes that. They are immortal and is re-summoned into their armours. But the sorcerers aren't immortal in that sense, they die just as well as any other astartes. The rubric stopped the rampant mutations in their geneseed (they are still afflicted by the "regular" ones though), but the original sorcerers still have their geneseed. Also, they would be getting new recruits just as all the rest of the legions get new recruits, assimilating renegades into their ranks or "marinating" promising recruits with either TS geneseed or other stolen geneseed. Only the rubricae stays the same...

 

Um... rampant means flourishing or spreading unchecked.  It's not like there were two categories of mutation in the sense of extra limbs vs. third nipples.  

[Excessus]

That's not what I meant either, dave. The rampant mutations was a part of their geneseed, and they would have been completely destroyed by it if it weren't for Magnus contract with Tzeentch. When they popped up again later, the rubric sorted it out amongst the sorcerers (and we know what happened to the rest of them).

 

...but the warp is a funny place, and has a (un)natural willingness to mutate stuff, and those mutations, as far as I know, they aren't immune to...

[daveNYC]

Sorry for being snarky.

Dunno, there hasn't been much mention of mutated 1k Sons in any of the fluff.  Not much mention of the Sons period, really.  

Only bit I remember about mutations is in Battle of the Fang, where the one sorcerer started to lose it when he though he was undergoing some mutations.  He was worried it was the flesh change coming back.

 

Personally I go for 1k Sons to be without mutation.  Not that I'd say the Rubric was a rousing success, but if all it did was stop the flesh change, while doing nothing mutations not tied directly to their geneseed, then it's just a total failure, which doesn't sit well with me.  I prefer my Sons to have pyrrhic victories.  

 

Huzzah, we did an OK job fighting the Wolves and then we escaped Prospero with our lives... by maiming a loyalist legion, and now we're stuck on some bizarre hell planet.

Huzzah, we stopped the flesh change... by turning 90% of the legion into dust sealed inside magic armor.