Horus Heresy What Ifs

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

IIRC, those who were connected through the noosphere(think wi-fi, but rare) were vulnerable to the scrapcode as it was traveling through the network. Those who were not connected to the network at large, were thus safe from infection.

 

On a basis of individual legionaries, in the 30k era, Iron Hands had bionics to a lesser extent than later on - basically they used them instead of growing replacement limbs / organs etc because they could be more efficient and they allowed IHs to be back on the field faster. This suggests their bionics wouldn't be involved in networking / comms - partly because they don't yet have the overriding compulsion to bionically upgrade, partly because it'd be likely only some members of a squad would have them, so it would be kinda pointless (the only evidence of IHs using networking systems is Wrath of Iron, in which they 'cant' digital messages to each other, presumably via binary code - but this would require a neural interface, extensive bionic enhancement probably pretty rare in 30k Iron Hands - the book is set in the 40k era). So its unlikely individual Iron Hands would be effected by the scrapcode, but they did have a lot of advanced wargear, so some of that might be effected, plus they used mechanicum allies more extensively than other legions.

[Kol Saresk]

I was thinking of the Skitarii, not the IH. I agree with you that most of them would have been secure. The Iron Fathers on the other hand, that might be a different story.

[[TA]Typher]

1. If the Lion would have been ambushed by the Word Bearers like that and had that level of resources of the Ultras the word bearers would be extinct. Guilliman is amazing with logistics, clearly the best of the primarchs at it and bureaucracy. But, logistics and strategy are two different things. Sure they intersect but one does not encompass the other. The Lion is a general. Guilliman is an administrator.

 

If the Lion had the 500 worlds to muster troops from Horus's strategy would have had to be more involved with the first Legion.

 

 

Against others like Manus or Vulkan not much would change.

 

If Sanginius was the victim I think the confrontation between him and Logar and Angron (in Betrayer) would hav been vastly different, with at leat one of the traitor Primarchs dead.

 

 

2. Agron would have been a good choice to sanction Magnus. It would have been interesting to read, but in the end I think both Legions would have been marred heavily. Teenzch Vs Korne. The warp influence would have been overt and crippling toward both legions.

 

Kurze would have been equally brutal, with the night haunter over stepping his mandate to the extreme. The story would have been darker. I do wonder however how the Night Lords would do. They aren't know for their steadfastness when fighting equally tough enemies. They are more of a "pick on the weak" type of Legion.

 

I think others like Sanguinius would have had a more restrained and brotherly approach to the situation. Without other influences (Chaos mucking up the works) it would have ended rather peaceably.

 

3. I'm not sure of this one.. I might not have read this book.

[depthcharge12]

Indulge me here with a thought from that Typher with the Dark Angels at Calth.

 

 

 

Might the Lion have been paranoid enough to prevent such an outcome? We see that he isn't below shooting at Iron Hands or questioning Ultramarines.

 

 

I haven't read UE yet but are the Dark angels somewhat more compartmentalized in their structure and might act more independently of eachtother without needing overriding commands from their primarch. I could be completely wrong

 

 

Plus, wouldn't the Lion's orb of Saruman teleport thingy have been advantagous to relocate his ships to make a defensive maneouver or gain line of sight?

 

 

And for the sake of hiliarity, when Kor Phaeron would have the Lion on his knees from gypsy sphess majick, he would ask Kor to forgive him as he did a low blow of kneeing Kor's geneseed into his old geezer neck :P

[Wade Garrett]

Regarding resolving Prospero peaceably...that might actually require one of the more "Stuff the Emperor, I do what I want" Primarchs instead of, say, Guilliman or Dorn.

 

When the Warmaster and Constantin Valdor, who are pretty much as close to Emps as you can get without +booming god voices and shining gold everywhere+ say to bring back Magnus's head in a basket, Dorn or Guilliman are going to bring that head back in a basket or die

trying.

[[TA]Typher]

@depth

 

I don't think Calth would have changeduch under the Lion, but the aftermath would have.

 

Guilliman has the largest legion. While he did shuffle resources and prevent collapse of the 500 worlds he wasn't able to use that superior force crush the traitors.

 

Logistics are good for protracted battles, but tactics and strategy will win more battles overall. Next to horus, who had been with the emperor since he was young, the Lion had the most victories. As we see in the representaton of the Lion he's slow to anger, but overwhelmingly brilliant when motivated. Just ask 1/3 of the shattered Nightlord legion that are floating lifeless in space.

[daveNYC]

There's some legions that you can't really stick in the scenario very well.  A Thousand Sons at Calth for example.  Their main advantage would, in theory, be that they would have predicted the ambush.  Get rid of that and they probably get their faces eaten.  Flip side is that if you assume the Sons do predict the ambush, then the Word Bearers end up getting slaughtered.

 

Not to mention the funky warpcraft the Word Bearers and their minions were using would either be highly effective at mucking up the Son's powers, or totally ineffective what with everyone on that side being a rank amateur (relative to the Sons).

[Legatus]

 

Logistics are good for protracted battles, but tactics and strategy will win more battles overall.

 

Then I guess it is good that the latter were Guilliman's greatest strength.

[Kol Saresk]

All three were Guilliman's strengths. All three were taught to him as he was taught to manage, not just rule, an entire empire. He was taught to be able to make sure the infrastructure ran smoothly. He was also taught how to lead armies into battle and how to play on the strengths and defenses of those involved.

 

The Lion is similar, but is more instinctual. He is prone to follow "what feels right" rather than "what should work". Both have their strengths as sometimes, it is the "Hail Mary Pass" that will win the game. And both have their weaknesses as sometimes, the ball is just thrown into the air.

[depthcharge12]

How about Blood Angels at Prospero vs. Space Wolves?

 

 

The wolves go into ragin Wulfen mode and the angels go into berserk vampire mode so that we have vampires vs werewo-

 

Agggh!!! Stephenie Meyer is Alpharius!!!!

 

 

HERESY! *Blam* *Blam*

[Wade Garrett]

I don't think you can point to the outcomes of the Thramas Crusade vs the Shadow Crusade

as evidence that Lion is "better" than Guilliman.

 

Lion was held in a protracted stalemate by Konrad Curze until he equipped his flagship with a warp engine that runs on the souls of children.

 

In contrast, Guilliman's Legion endured a devastating sucker punch at Calth and then had to fight off the Word Bearers and the World Eaters.

 

These situations are not the same.

[Kol Saresk]

But Curze and the Night Lords aren't smart or tactful enough to purposefully pull off a stalemate. ;)

[DuskRaider]

I don't think you can point to the outcomes of the Thramas Crusade vs the Shadow Crusade

as evidence that Lion is "better" than Guilliman.

 

Lion was held in a protracted stalemate by Konrad Curze until he equipped his flagship with a warp engine that runs on the souls of children.

 

In contrast, Guilliman's Legion endured a devastating sucker punch at Calth and then had to fight off the Word Bearers and the World Eaters.

 

These situations are not the same.

This. You're also comparing a Legion that has an average amount of Astartes (Dark Angels) to the largest known Legion in the Imperium (Ultramarines). I honestly don't see how Dark Angels, with numbers probably equal to or lesser than World Eaters alone, would be able to hold up against said World Eaters AND the second largest Legion (Word Bearers). Strategy is good and all, but the Lion was on even keel and being held back by Night Lords. I don't see much success against at least four times their number in Astartes alone.

[Kol Saresk]

There's also the fact that(IIRC Savage Weapons correctly) the Night Lords were performing multiple simultaneous attacks with small combat groups while the DA were patrolling in larger combat groups. If the DA had a majority of their strength at Calth and that strength was shattered, there is no guarantee it would have turned out better than Humpty Dumpty.

[Conn Eremon]

So the Dark Angels were unable, or unwilling, to adapt against their Night Lord foe. That's a point in favor of them being mauled worse at Calth than the Ultramarines, who are all about adapting to meet the foe.

[Legatus]

Weell, I tdon't think the Dark Angels would be outnumbered by the World Eaters. The World Eaters were pretty much the Legion with the highest casualties, due to their recklessness, whereas the Dark Angels were among the more tactically savvy Legions. (Fun trivia, the Ultramarines had the least amound of casualties, reportedly due to Guilliman's exceptional tactical expertise.)

 

And compared to the World Eaters and the Word Bearers, I would attest the Night Lords the greater tactical skill. Their Index Astartes article describes that Curze had a keen grasp on tactical principles, just that he would choose to employ intimidation tactics most. The Word Bearers and World Eaters on the other hand have never really been known for their tactical finesse.

 

Of course, where the comparison between the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines falls way short is the fact that Guilliman simply wasnt "an administrator". He was raised as a military leader, and by the end of the Great Crusade, while there were a few Primarchs that claimed a greater number of victories, none had achieved as much in terms of liberated worlds.

Exchanging Guilliman for Jonson would not suddenly open up the magical world of strategy and tactics for the Legion involved. Guilliman was already one of the most gifted strategist among the Primarchs. Exchanging the Ultramarines for the Dark Angels would change very little in terms of how they would have prosecuted the campaign. Other than slashing the number of Marines available in half.

[Kol Saresk]

I'd put it more towards unwilling. When given the means, they waited for a large enough gathering of the VIII in a single location and then ambushed that. As a result, they destroyed a confirmed one-fifth, suspected one-quarter of the Legion at Sheol, but as a result, caused the VIII to go to ground.

 

EDIT: But the World Eaters were still one of the "larger"(this sees to be a relative term indicating at least ~120,000) Legions.

[Conn Eremon]

They were up to, and believed to be beyond, a 150k preceding Isstvan III. And they suffered the least casualties, after the Death Guard.

 

At Isstvan V, not sure.

[Legatus]

Hm, ok.

 

That's... odd. I guess all the "smaller" or average Legions weren't really interested in higher numbers, then. If the World Eaters can get that many men, there really is no other reason for why the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels, Luna Wolves, Dark Angels etc. weren't just as big as the Ultramarines.

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, World Eaters were a large Legion... smaller than Ultramarines & Word Bearers, but larger than Sons of Horus (who themselves were a large Legion). There's also evidence that at the time of the Heresy, World Eaters were still actively recruiting. The Lion may be a great strategist, but he would be no match for a concerted effort of two larger Legions. You also need to remember, the reason both the World Eaters and Word Bearers were sent to Calth was BECAUSE of the Ultramarines' Legion size. It required two other large Legions to deal with the vast numbers that Guilliman had, and even then they (the Traitors) were dealt a massive blow.

[Legatus]

 

It required two other large Legions to deal with the vast numbers that Guilliman had, and even then they (the Traitors) were dealt a massive blow.

 

Is that in one of the recent books?

[DuskRaider]

Hm, ok.

 

That's... odd. I guess all the "smaller" or average Legions weren't really interested in higher numbers, then. If the World Eaters can get that many men, there really is no other reason for why the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels, Luna Wolves, Dark Angels etc. weren't just as big as the Ultramarines.

The World Eaters had larger numbers due to A: Their recruitment procedures, which involved recruiting from not only Terra, but Sarum and a number of other tithed worlds, and B: Their high attrition rate required intense recruitment. This is all in Betrayal.

 

 

 

It required two other large Legions to deal with the vast numbers that Guilliman had, and even then they (the Traitors) were dealt a massive blow.

 

Is that in one of the recent books?

What kind of evidence do you require? Do you expect Horus to send smaller Legions against the largest Legion in the Imperium? That would be pretty nonsensical. 

[Legatus]

No, I mean where was it described that the traitors were dealt a large blow. I have read Betrayer, and there wasn't really any blow dealt to the traitors. Was that in 'Mark of Calth' or something?

 

As for recruitment: If the Legion with the highest casualty rates can just ramp up recruitment and end up with 150K warriors, then why didn't all the Legions with significantly lower casualty rates increase their recruitment just a tiny bit and end up with 200K warriors? Why wouldn't they want more warriors to fight the Crusade with? Some like Russ, Magnus or Fulgrim were of course restricted in how much they could recruit. But others like Jonson, Horus, Dorn or Sanguinius weren't. So apparently they simply chose to not grow their Legions beyond a certain strength.

[Conn Eremon]

I think he meant the massive blow to the traitors.

 

I got the sense, and I believe this is an assumption on my part, not stated anywhere, that the World Eaters had no real standards. They recruited faster and more, because their selection process just pumped bodies through.

 

Edit: Ninja'd. Takes too long to post on phones.

[DuskRaider]

No, I mean where was it described that the traitors were dealt a large blow. I have read Betrayer, and there wasn't really any blow dealt to the traitors. Was that in 'Mark of Calth' or something?

 

As for recruitment: If the Legion with the highest casualty rates can just ramp up recruitment and end up with 150K warriors, then why didn't all the Legions with significantly lower casualty rates increase their recruitment just a tiny bit and end up with 200K warriors? Why wouldn't they want more warriors to fight the Crusade with? Some like Russ, Magnus or Fulgrim were of course restricted in how much they could recruit. But others like Jonson, Horus, Dorn or Sanguinius weren't. So apparently they simply chose to not grow their Legions beyond a certain strength.

Calth was a massive blow to the Traitors, is what I'm saying. Despite having the jump on Guilliman and similar numbers, they suffered high casualty rates.

 

On recruitment... I assume it would have to do with tithed worlds, population numbers, and required training. A world like Caliban is considered a Death World. The population is small and sparse, so recruitment would be lower. I'm not even sure they have other recruitment worlds. Sons of Horus on the other hand, number around 130,000... which is actually pretty large. I'm sure supplies play a large part of it as well. Can Cthonia or their parent Forge World actually supply the arms and armor for 200,000+ Astartes? Things like that. This is all just guessing, obviously, because no one really touches on WHY the Legions number as they do. Obviously some, like Thousand Sons, number so little because of their specialization.

 

Edit: It must also be said that TECHNICALLY Calth was a success for Horus. It knocked Guilliman out of a large part of the Heresy, and due to the Warp Storm that Lorgar had successfully created, cut them off from assisting too much in the Heresy on a large scale. However, the Word Bearers were dealt massive casualties and while Lorgar had prepared for this (and actually expected it, as it was seen as a cleansing of the Legion), and Calth ultimately was not destroyed, nor was Guilliman killed. I personally haven't read Know No Fear or Mark of Calth, but from what I gather from other novels, the general background, and folks on here, Calth was ultimately considered a victory for the UItramarines as well. Kind of a phyrric victory for both sides, in my opinion.