Horus Heresy What Ifs

[Kol Saresk]

Hm, ok.

 

That's... odd. I guess all the "smaller" or average Legions weren't really interested in higher numbers, then. If the World Eaters can get that many men, there really is no other reason for why the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels, Luna Wolves, Dark Angels etc. weren't just as big as the Ultramarines.

The theme we see to be getting from the FW books is the more planets a Legion recruits from, the larger it is. The World Eaters recruited from pretty much every planet they came across that they left survivors. So they were always bringing in new blood faster than they were losing old blood.

 

Like you pointed out earlier, part of the Ultramarines big numbers was from a relatively low attrition rate. The World Eaters are basically the Ultramarines(number wise) with a high attrition rate.

 

And Legatus is right, no massive blow was dealt to the Traitors.

 

Unless you're referring to Calth. Which is rather subjective since Lorgar wanted all the Word Bearers there to die.

[Wade Garrett]

This is strictly me theorizing here, but my belief is that the gene seed of certain Primarchs just naturally has a higher success rate of implantation and maturation than others.

 

For example, we know the Russ type is most compatible with the people of Fenris, and even then it is prone to oopsie-whoopsies (the Wolfen).

 

In contrast, the Guilliman gene seed seems capable of taking in people from almost any world without turning them into slavering monsters.

 

Maybe Angron's genome is one of the more stable types, with smaller Legions like the Emperor's Children and Blood Angels requiring a more careful screening for compatible recruits?

[Legatus]

 

And Legatus is right, no massive blow was dealt to the Traitors.

 

Unless you're referring to Calth. Which is rather subjective since Lorgar wanted all the Word Bearers there to die.

 

Yeah. Pre-'KNow No Fear', the Ultramarines defeated the Word Bearers at Calth.

 

Post-'Know No Fear', the Word Bearers achieved their main objectives at Calth, and they managed to destroy Armatura, which was just as important to the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines however managed to survive being ambushed at Calth.

[Wade Garrett]

Depends on how you define "Main Objectives".

 

The Bearers did kill many of Guilliman's sons and birth the Ruinstorm...but they were supposed to wipe out the Thirteenth completely and sacrifice Rob to the Chaos Gods.

 

Instead, they lost all their ground forces, a significant chunk of their fleet, ran away from Calth, and enough Ultramarines survived that they continued to fight the Bearers on Calth while sending pursuit fleets after both Kor Phaeron and Lorgar.

 

But ultimately, I think this debate should be resolved by the words of Guilliman himself:

 

"Victory and defeat are a matter of perception."

[Haranin]

According to the last full DA book Caliban alone is producing 5,000 legionaries a year. Depending on how long that has been going on, DA are NOT a small legion unless they are taking brutal losses; and they could have more than one recruiting world.

[DuskRaider]

 

Hm, ok.

 

That's... odd. I guess all the "smaller" or average Legions weren't really interested in higher numbers, then. If the World Eaters can get that many men, there really is no other reason for why the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels, Luna Wolves, Dark Angels etc. weren't just as big as the Ultramarines.

The theme we see to be getting from the FW books is the more planets a Legion recruits from, the larger it is. The World Eaters recruited from pretty much every planet they came across that they left survivors. So they were always bringing in new blood faster than they were losing old blood.

 

Like you pointed out earlier, part of the Ultramarines big numbers was from a relatively low attrition rate. The World Eaters are basically the Ultramarines(number wise) with a high attrition rate.

 

And Legatus is right, no massive blow was dealt to the Traitors.

 

Unless you're referring to Calth. Which is rather subjective since Lorgar wanted all the Word Bearers there to die.

 

I meant specifically at Calth, where the Traitors were dealt a massive blow, both in the amount lost (which as I said was more or less Lorgar's plan anyhow) and the fact that Guilliman lived to fight another day.

[Kol Saresk]

Guilliman wasn't eant to die at Calth. Lorgar's plans were pretty much everything that happened, including every Word Bearer present dying. Kor Phaeron and Erebus escaping are against his plans. Sources are Aurelian, Betrayer and The Underground War.

[Wade Garrett]

Betrayer?

 

Where Lorgar tells Erebus (paraphrasing) "Kor Phaeron now orbits Calth in victory, having sacrificed my brother to the True Pantheon? That was the expected victory you claim to have exceeded, was it not?"

[Kol Saresk]

Betrayer?

 

Where Lorgar tells Erebus (paraphrasing) "Kor Phaeron now orbits Calth in victory, having sacrificed my brother to the True Pantheon? That was the expected victory you claim to have exceeded, was it not?"

No, not the sarcasm. The part where Argel Tal told Khârn that Calth was meant to be a massive sacrifice.

 

Which we see confirmed again in The Underground War when Lorgar tells Argel Tal that he wants all the new Gal Vorbak to be Word Bearers who have an axe to grind against the Ultramarines.

 

And then there's the passage from Aurelian where Lorgar is told Guilliman needs to survive Calth so others may be drawn to Ultramar and away from the rest of the Heresy, which is something we see in Unremembered Empire. Would you like me to dig it all up?

[Wade Garrett]

I haven't read Aurelian, and I seem to remember Lorgar told Argel Tal to use the "haters" to make new Gal Vorbak because the "nice guys" Last Angel had been trying the process with kept dying.

 

And the bit where Argel Tal tells Khârn Calth was nothing but a great sacrifice is also where he boasts that the Word Bearers never had to purge themselves of the disloyal.

 

Which we know is a lie because of what Erebus says in The First Heretic and Marduk's actions in his trilogy and..."Heart of Darkness" is the title of his story in Mark of Calth, I think?

[Kol Saresk]

I haven't read Aurelian, and I seem to remember Lorgar told Argel Tal to use the "haters" to make new Gal Vorbak because the "nice guys" Last Angel had been trying the process with kept dying.

 

And the bit where Argel Tal tells Khârn Calth was nothing but a great sacrifice is also where he boasts that the Word Bearers never had to purge themselves of the disloyal.

Which we know is a lie because of what Erebus says in The First Heretic and Marduk's actions in his trilogy and..."Heart of Darkness" is the title of his story in Mark of Calth, I think?

And he also mentions Calth as their Istvaan. The "Purge" by the Brotherhood are those who will not follow the Heresy. The Purge at Calth are of those who will not follow Lorgar.

 

I'll throw up all the pertinent information bits in a bit. And Heart of Darkness was just Marduk butt-kissing Kor Phaeron for an apprenticeship by killing his original master.

[Wade Garrett]

Yeah, Reynold's tale was a let down for both Kor and Marduk. Wow. He killed his mentor by scribbling a Chaos rune on his helmet. Awesome. You should totally bring him into your inner circle as a reward for killing your loyal minion, Kor.

 

Why We Aren't Winning The Long War, Exhibit K-53-a (7)

 

But I mentioned it because of Marduk's flashbacks to killing other Word Bearers as he's fighting the Ultramarines.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah, Reynold's tale was a let down for both Kor and Marduk. Wow. He killed his mentor by scribbling a Chaos rune on his helmet. Awesome. You should totally bring him into your inner circle as a reward for killing your loyal minion, Kor.

 

Why We Aren't Winning The Long War, Exhibit K-53-a (7)

 

But I mentioned it because of Marduk's flashbacks to killing other Word Bearers as he's fighting the Ultramarines.

 

 

The word bearers before meeting their primarch were known as the Emperor's Doodlers.

 

 

 

Another reason why Lorgar went nutso and started scribbling his thoughts everywhere.....

[wtwhizz]

Yeah, Reynold's tale was a let down for both Kor and Marduk. Wow. He killed his mentor by scribbling a Chaos rune on his helmet. Awesome. You should totally bring him into your inner circle as a reward for killing your loyal minion, Kor.

 

Why We Aren't Winning The Long War, Exhibit K-53-a (7)

 

But I mentioned it because of Marduk's flashbacks to killing other Word Bearers as he's fighting the Ultramarines.

 

It kind of makes one wonder what happens to Lorgar and the Word Bearers between the Heresy and 40k.  

 

Lorgar becomes sure of himself.  Absolutely despises Erebus and Kor.  They fail time and time again.  Lorgar goes on to do awesome things like elevate Angron to be a daemon prince, etc.  Then in 40k Lorgar is holed up somewhere and Kor/Erebus are running the show again.  Was Argel Tal Lorgar's only confidant when it came to clearing the Legion out of idiots like Erebus/Kor?  

[Kol Saresk]

Here you go Wade.

 

Aurelian, page 100

 

'Calth,' the first head intoned. 'You will be given one chance - and only one chance - to shed Guilliman's blood. It is written in the stars, by the hands of the gods. If you face him at Calth, you will slay him.'

 

'But you will lose the war,' said the second. 'You will earn your brothers' respect and awe. You will savour your vengeance. But your holy war will falter. The Emperor's defences will be enriched by too many defenders, drawn there by fates that would otherwise have been denied. You may never even reach Terra.'

 

 

 

*Note, this is the one time both heads agreed.

 

Betrayer, page 186

 

'Thousands of the Legion detested the Ultramarines. Lorgar ordered many of us to gather when we were already enroute to Calth. I, and the others who would become commanders and apostles of the Vakrah Jal. He wanted our counsel on what to do with those among the Legion he no longer trusted. Our Legion culled its ranks in a trickle down the decades, but nothing like the Isstvan Atrocity that Angron is so proud of. Lorgar knew the loyalty within the Word Bearers was never in doubt. Competence was a different matter.'

 

Even Khârn was ignoring the struggling Ultramarine now. He was silent as Argel Tal continued.

 

'Lord Aurelian asked what we should do with the warriors he felt were no longer reliable. Those whose hatred burned brighter than their sense. Tens of thousands of them, Khârn. Whole companies. Whole Chapters. Their rage was no longer pure.'

 

'You killed them?'

 

'Not directly. We gave them the mission they craved. They sailed with Erebus and Kor Phaeron, to martyr themselves in glory.'

 

 

 

*Funnily enough, just a few lines down and after Khârn tells Argel they won at Calth, Argel replies 'Victory is a matter of perspective.'

 

The Underground War, Mark of Calth anthology, page 325-326

 

'Do not look amongst the ranks of our best warriors,' Lorgar said, once the thralls were gone, with the corpse dragged away between them. 'That's where you're going wrong.'

 

Argel Tal looked up at his father, lost by the words. 'I don't understand.'

 

'I want two thousand of these daemon-souled warriors, my son. Two thousand, before we reach Calth, one year from now.'

 

Two thousand. Two thousand.

 

Argel Tal gaped. 'Lord Aurelian, I can't...'

 

'You can.' Lorgar's eyes were flint. 'I do not want our best warriors to be thrown at Calth. We will need the strongest and finest Chapters to reeve our way through the rest of Ultramar. Do not use our best blood for this game, Argel Tal. Use the ones that loathe the Ultramarines beyond balance, beyond reason, beyond sanity. Let the daemons come, drawn by the hatred in the hearts of wrathful men. Emotion attracts them as much as devotion. Remember that.'

 

'Practically half the Legion still prays for the Thirteenth's annihilation, my lord.'

 

'Exactly.'

[Blood Angel Scout]

I took the passage in Aurelian to be if Lorgar himself faced Guiliman, especially cause the daemon shows this to Lorgar in the next scene....then the crusade would fail.

 

Lorgar to Erebus after he warpwalks rom Calth to the Word Bearers tearing through Ultramar, is what you have quoted true enough, but again the full context is continued later in that passage in reference towards Erebus/Horus scheme at Signus, in that Erebus failed and continue to fail if he doesn't listen to his primarch.....the sarcastic tone is exactly that, to bring Erebus down a notch in front of Argel Tal and Khârn and highlight his constant moustace-twirling ways

[Kol Saresk]

I took the passage in Aurelian to be if Lorgar himself faced Guiliman, especially cause the daemon shows this to Lorgar in the next scene....then the crusade would fail.

Maybe. Maybe not. But it seems rather integral that Guilliman live. And if Guilliman had not survived Calth, then neither the Lion nor Sanguinius would have headed to Macragge as Guilliman would not have sent a certain Tetrarch after a certain Warsmith before sending both to a certain planet.

[Wade Garrett]

It certainly casts an interesting light on Lorgar's fight with Guilliman on Nuceria and his psy locking Angron's muscles to steal the killing blow.

[Kol Saresk]

And also why he thought he knew where Guilliman should have been.

[Augustus]

Is it still possible to believe that the demon (fateweaver?) lied when they said "we will both tell the truth" or is it the consensus that it in fact told the truth?

[Kol Saresk]

 

Is it still possible to believe that the demon (fateweaver?) lied when they said "we will both tell the truth" or is it the consensus that it in fact told the truth?

No one said "we will both tell the truth." But everywhere else, when one head says one thing, the other says the opposite. This is simply the one place in the book where they do not contradict, meaning that if it was a lie, then both lied, or both were telling the truth, as the biggest lie ever told was the truth.

[Conn Eremon]

Or one did lie, one did tell the truth, but both phrased it to seem like they were in agreement.

 

And I think it's established lore from elsewhere as well about the nature of the two heads.

[Kol Saresk]

Or one did lie, one did tell the truth, but both phrased it to seem like they were in agreement.

And I think it's established lore from elsewhere as well about the nature of the two heads.

"The biggest lie ever told was the truth."

It is more feasible that the lying head "lied" by telling an unwanted truth while the other told the truth than both lied.

Although, you are right. I only said this is the one time both heads are in agreement in my original post though.

[Conn Eremon]

Just adding a third option, each entirely possible.

 

To me, mine seemed the more feasible. The fact that one head lies and the other tells the truth is established in many places. So I believe that it was still the case, just that they both phrased their responses in a way to seem like a single, grand truth. The kind of loophole-utilizing trickery you'd expect from a Tzeentchian.

[Kol Saresk]

True enough. I just keep thinking of things like how every lie is a perversion of truth and how in many cases, the lie is the truth, just told to an unwilling audience. And Lorgar was very much an unwilling audience.