Help vs GK

[Barnie25]

On thursday I will face an opponent which fields both mordrek and draigo in a 1850 point battle. My primary army is 2 RAS with 2 meltas, 2 plasmas and 2 MM attack bikes, a darkshroud and 5 black knights.

 

Will hammernators or DWK in a LRCbe better for dedicated CC against such an opponent will 12 s10 hits on the charge be enough to kill either of his characters or should my bikes take care of them. I see the bikes easily wreck the paladins with plasma and melta fire.

 

I also will be fielding Mephiston and a Storm Raven as allies for extra fire power.

 

How do you guys deal with these kinds of armies?

[march10k]

First of all, don't take Mephiston, he's a psycher, and so Draigo gets S10 against him, and GK are generally pretty pimp against psychers anyway.

 

If you're playing a fast army, and you are,  ignore/run from mordrak.  Played right, he starts with five ghost knights, tanks some wounds to generate more ghost knights, and he's an upgrade character with a daemonhammer, so you don't want to be meleeing his unit.  Let him and his unit be a land raider sized waste of points!

 

Hammernators or DWK will make a red mist out of Draigo, he's only S/T5 against them.  Go for hammernators, S10 doesn't help, so you might as well go for a S8 that you can keep.

[Barnie25]

I also have a regular LR, a LRC, 15 terminators(4TH/SS one with CML, AC, PC and regular dorks), 5 DWK and a biker libby. Do you recommend type of list you normally run or just the two Land Raiders with the Hammernators and the DWK's.

[shabbadoo]

Deathwing with no psykers will smash GK.  All you really "need" is plasma cannons for heavies.  In this case, run Belial with TH & SS, as the Sword of Silence and lightning claws will be ineffective...unless your opponent is a freak of nature and runs lots of power armored GK (which is really, really nasty actually).  Ravenwing are not well suited to taking down GK,as the volume of their shooting is just not up to par, and their close combat ability is woefully inadequate in comparison to that of GK.  You will have a tough fight.  I agree that you should leave the Blood Angels stuff by the wayside.  You would be better off running three Venerable Dreadnoughts with plasma cannons and heavy flamers and some Vindicators instead.  Nothing makes GK cry more than a Str 10 AP 2 pie plate landing on Paladins.

[Barnie25]

I was actually thinking of running bikers with the dakka banner. But the termi army will do better you guys say. I only have one dreadnought with TL LC and ML. I was also thinking of running devastators with 2 plasma cannons, a lascannon and a missle launcher.

 

As far as Land Raiders go is a Regular LR better or a LRC against them.

[dropped my axe]

He's running two Unique GK HQ's???? well it'll be a small terminator list most likely with paladins so bikes will work great as well as plasma and or TH/SS termies GK armies dont get SS so their invul saves wont be great except draigo but unless hes running LR or a raven it'll be a slow army so just shoot and move!

 

GK are good in CC as thats where all their special rules come into play but fall apart from dakka, even demons can take them down easily from shooting. just watch out for psycannons the only real range threat

 

also i would use the normal LR, and any ap2 weapons as bolters will obviously still allow him his 2+ and he might even have an apotho with his paladins giving him FNP on his 2W termies

[johnyocum]

Against GKs (as I play them):

 

Anything AP2 or AP1 in shooting is your friend, especially if it's S8+.  They don't have very good invulns outside of CC.

 

Ravenwing Black Knights will probably work well, but regular RAS are unlikely to do much, except with volume of fire.

 

In CC, either expect him to have a higher init (halberds which are I6 in cc) OR a better invuln save than a 'normal' Terminator (warding stave giving a 2++ or the normal NFS giving a +1 to your invulns).

 

If he brings a Dreadknight, hammer it immediately with as much AP 1/2 as you can hit it with as soon as you are allowed to shoot.  It's a T6, 6 wound model, so recommend Black Knights rad grenade it, then Vindicators (if you have them) hit it that same shooting phase to take advantage of the -1T it gets.

[Barnie25]

The only Vindicator I have is a Leman Russ Demolisher. Would allies with the IG be worth while as I could field said Leman Russ and drop a 45 man guard blob with multiple lascannons and autocannons, with the Rank one, Rank two Rank, three Fire special rule that squad could put out an insane amount of lasshots for the price of 385 points (including the HQ) they would be getting a 4+ invulnerable save due to Azrael. Or would that be rather useless against them?

 

Also 2 squads of 3 bikes with 2 special weapons each and 2 attack bikes with two MM maybe isn't even that bad against them that would give me 6 ap2/1 weapons. What do you think?

[Morticon]

Id look to a squad of Command Black Knights- talons, mobility, high cover save, scout, rad grenades to pop the pallies not to mention FNP for the power weapons.  Hell, id take two!

[Barnie25]

How would flyers such as a Storm Raven and Storm Talon match up against the GK?

[march10k]

Well...the dreadnought with two twinlinked S8 autocannons says "leave the fliers at home," especially if he has more than one.  And, honestly, other than the dark talon dropping its bomb on a dreadknight right before you smack it, I don't see much benefit.

[Barnie25]

I think I'm just gonna go with the Dakka banner bikers,to be mobile and shoot his as with low AP weapons and bolter fire, then a gunline with devastators with PC's and a LC and a Dreadnought with TL LC and ML. 

 

Would your terminator list be good against a Draigo, Mordrekwing. As I have 15 termi's, 5 DWK's, a LR and a LRC.

[dropped my axe]

sm ravens are better than gk ravens for anti air due to the different missiles, if you have one to take sure take it dont fear the gk dreads to much doubt he'll have the points to spam them and if he has  got his own raven then you will have a counter to it, just remember if he tries to use mordrek in a raven for first to the fight it got faq and is a no go!!!

 

in the end i think you have the means to take him down will just depend on his heavies, dread knight being the thing to worry about

[Barnie25]

I know for a fact that he doesn't have flyers or dreadknights so that is a good thing to know. I can bring a Storm Raven and a Dread of my own with snipers and a libby as a allied detachment with the snipers and the libby as a backfield objective claimer with the dread as fire backup and protection and the Storm Raven as a pain in the butt to hunt his troops. 

[march10k]

Deathwing, especially with thunderhammers, will :cuss grey knights...and he won't have much chance of killing land raiders, either. It would almost be cheating, it would be so easy.

 

++ Go easy using the colourful language. Use the cuss emoticon. I ++

[Barnie25]

Deathwing, especially with thunderhammers, will :cuss: grey knights...and he won't have much chance of killing land raiders, either. It would almost be cheating, it would be so easy.

I have total and utter faith in you! I will try this then

[Prot]

I think I'm just gonna go with the Dakka banner bikers,to be mobile and shoot his as with low AP weapons and bolter fire

There you go. This is the magic right here. Ravenwing LOOK small and elite, but the Dakka banner evens the playing field. I've made horde nids disappear (with some luck admittedly). The reality is weight of fire counts if you work the banner properly.

I've not taken this to a tournament yet, but the way I use the banner it is possible for 2-3 squads to take advantage. That's a LOT of fire power. Use hit and run to your advantage as well... never get stuck in with these shiny turkeys.

Deathwing, especially with thunderhammers, will grey knights...and he won't have much chance of killing land raiders, either. It would almost be cheating, it would be so easy.

This I don't understand. Won't the Terminators bring his (Dark Angels) numbers down and play into the hands of his elte killing army list?

[Barnie25]

This I don't understand. Won't the Terminators bring his (Dark Angels) numbers down and play into the hands of his elte killing army list?

 

I am also interested to know what the actual reason behind his statement is, however I do value his opinion as he looks to be far more weathered by battle than I am.

[shabbadoo]

Here is why:

 

Grey Knights Terminators will outnumber Deathwing Terminators with thunder hammers and storm shields by about 6 to 5, but the Deathwing will have 3++ storm shield saves while the Grey Knights Terminators will have the usual 5++ terminator armor invulnerable save.  That is only the case if the Grey Knights Terminators are as threatening as they can be, meaning they ALL have daemon hammers (not too likely based on the Grey Knight armies I usually see).  If they do not all have daemon hammers, the Deathwing get their regular 2+ terminator armor saves.  Either way, things still favor the Deathwing; hugely if there are few daemon hammers in the opposing force.  Deathwing Terminators with thunder hammers and storm shields are also not all that impressed by Grey Knight Paladins or Grey Knights Special Characters who they will instant kill (excepting only Draigo and Karamazov) with their thunder hammers.

[Barnie25]

I have 4 TH/SS termis, Belial with that config and 5 Deathwing Knights, so thats 10 of the 20 terminators with a 3++ save. By placing my bike libby behind my termi squad at exact the right distance I can also give one squad a 4++ save. Is that enough ++ to make a difference?

[Prot]

Thanks for the explanation Shabadoo.... I don't get the chance to play against GK that often.

[shabbadoo]

I have 4 TH/SS termis, Belial with that config and 5 Deathwing Knights, so thats 10 of the 20 terminators with a 3++ save. By placing my bike libby behind my termi squad at exact the right distance I can also give one squad a 4++ save. Is that enough ++ to make a difference?

I almost included that Deathwing Knights are worth much of nothing versus Grey Knights. The one-shot Strength 10 AP 2 Smite mode really doesn't affect things any more than a thunder hammer will, and the usual Str 6 AP 4 is practically worthless. Sure, the Smite mode goes off at Initiative value, but anything you would want to use this against will be either a character (who will usually be a part of a challenge, which strips away much of the Smite effect) or a Nemesis Dreadknight, which thunder hammers kill easily enough anyways (and thunder hammers are always useful, not just once per game). Deathwing Terminators with thunder hammers and storm shields will out perform Deathwing Knights. I would leave the Deathwing Knights off the list and include something else instead.

 

As to Belial, this is one opponent where I would definitely field him with thunder hammer and storm shield.

[march10k]

Whether or not to include the knights depends on the alternative, and on what the enemy is bringing.  If he has larger units of terminators, one round of smite is all you need to fully justify the knights.  But most things you could take instead are a better idea, including tactical terminators...why?  Goes back to Shabbadoo's explanation of why deathwing are now better than GKTs.  Your powerfists give him a 5+ save.  If he pays for daemonhammers, he's doing the same thing to you, but if he doesn't, you have a 2+ save, so you've got a slight edge (versus the massive edge that you'd have with thundernators.  Black knights would be better than DWK, too...DKW aren't bad against GKTs, but there are better choices.  Actually, non-smiting knights are going to be better than GKTs on account of their T5....IIRC, GKTs wound knights on 3+, knights wound GKTs on 2+, and they both get a 2+ save....that's going to be a loooooooong fight, lol, but statistically, non-smiting knights should come out on top in the long haul.  GKTs are simply horrible against TEQs.

[Barnie25]

Then it will be simple as I will Just field my knights for hammernators and all will be fine. Thanks alot for the insight guys. I will report back tomorrow!

[march10k]

Ah, good plan...proxy!