Tank shocks and terrain.

[Raeven]

I thought that if the unit in question cannot place a model because of terrain or other limitations on space then the models that couldn't make it out of the way are destroyed? Any model that cannot be placed aside or so that it maintains coherency goes splat under the treads no? I once boxed in a MC with a wrecked tank, the board edge, another tank and then rammed it off the board with a vindie. It had nowhere to go so it had to death or glory... bye bye birdy...

Bringing this topic back from the dead because I have some questions regarding Tank Shock as well.

In the above example, would the wrecked tank have been enough to kill the MC? Technically, the wrecked tank is now Difficult Terrain and should not have been able to block the MC from moving out of the way. Correct?

Now, the question I have regarding the rule is, how strict is the wording that the unit moving out of the way must move the shortest possible distance? I ran into a situation where a Tank Shock would have hit units that are fearless and could not possibly do any damage to the vehicle's front armor. There was a blocking vehicle on one side and impassable terrain in line with the tank shock.

The below illustrates my question. If you can only move by the shortest possible route, the top three models would be dead because they are closer to the top centerline of the vehicle. The bottom left would clearly get out of the way. The last model is the real question. Which route would the right corner model take? I'm fine with either way, but how would you guys rule this situation?

[Dam13n]

You move by the shortest legal distance.

 

In your example, the only direction any of the models in the tank shocked unit can move is downwards.

- They cannot move to within 1" of an enemy unit/model (up)

- They cannot enter impassable terrain (right)

- They cannot move into the path of the oncoming vehicle (left)

 

The entire unit therefore moves in a downwards direction, ending their movement more than 1" from the tank-shocking vehicle.

 

No models are removed. None!

 

The only way you could conceivably kill them is if they were surrounded.

[Raeven]

You are adding words that are not there.  The rule is, "these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board.  Any models that cannot manage this are removed from play as casualties."

 

This rule sets up two conditions.   You must move by the shortest distance.  You must be 1" away from the tank, within unit coherency, and stay on the board.

 

 

Even if we were to take your argument as correct, meaning they must make a legal move, you would still lose the top two models in the corner near the building because the bottom two models would block their passage.  You cannot move the shortest distance and at the same time move models farther than the shortest distance in order to make room for other models.

 

Note, it doesn't even say possible distance.  Just the shortest distance.

[Dam13n]

The shortest distance that the model can move, which will still be subject to the rules for moving (as are all moves, the clue is in the name "move") which prevent a model from moving to within 1" of an enemy model, and cannot enter impassable terrain (BRB page 90).

There is no restriction to moving through your own units/models. Therefore you cannot be blocked by your own models. The only models that can block your units are enemy models. (BRB page 10, models in the way)

The rule also states that they must maintain coherency. Therefore, when moving my models out the way, I move the ones at the bottom first in a downwards direction, I then have to move the ones at the top, both out of the way of the tank and in such a way as to maintain coherency, which means also moving them downwards. They can pass through the other members of their unit that I've already moved if that is required to get them fully out of the way of the vehicle.

If we use your picture as an example, even the one at the bottom right isn't an issue, as I would move the one to the left first, therefore coherency would pull the one at the bottom right away from the impassable terrain.

I stated legal move because all moves must be legal - as defined by the movement section of the rules.

[Raeven]

You are violating two rules by doing such.

 

1. You cannot move through any models. Friendly or enemy. Reread models in the way. There is nothing that allows you to move through other models.

 

2. You are required to move the shortest distance that will place your models 1" away from the vehicle.

[Leonaides]

Re: point 2 - if you are required to move teh shortest move that will place your models 1" away, then whats the problem? Models... Plural. Some models may have to move slightly further as a squad than they would have had to do as individuals in order to accomodate the rest of the models. Thats still moving the shortest possible amount to accomodate all models and keep them away from the tank.

[Raeven]

If that were true, then you could never kill anything with a tank shock. Even if boxed in, all the models would just move behind the attacking tank in the path it travelled.

 

I don't think it is just that simple.

[Spinsanity]

And you think your way makes any sense? If it were true, since you can only move models as long as they remain in unit coherency, it would mean that *every time* someone tank shocks a unit, half of said unit auto-dies; those that jumped left, or those that jumped right...

[Raeven]

Yep. In the situation I presented, you would be correct.

 

What doesn't make sense about it? It's far more logical than models being able to teleport directly behind the attacking vehicles path of travel because they are entirely blocked in. I

[Magpie]

I think it is important to note that the models do not "move out of the way" but rather are "moved out of the way".

It isn't a "move" as such and so isn't restricted by distance, difficult terrain and so forth, if the shortest distance you need to move them is 24" through a forest then so be it.

 

It's is possible that impassable terrain wouldn't come into it either but I wouldn't play it that way.

 

No models die in this instance as each model moves what distance is required to get all of them out of the way and yes the only time a model will die is if they are boxed in in some manner or you're up against the board edge

[Gentlemanloser]

 

You are violating two rules by doing such.

1. You cannot move through any models. Friendly or enemy. Reread
models in the way. There is nothing that allows you to move through
other models.

 

There is no restriction in the Movement Phase section about moving through friendly minis.  Only;

 

 

MODELS IN THE WAY A model cannot move within I " of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase. To move past, they must go around.

 

The friendly model bit is in the Tank Shock section;

 

 

A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through. Remember, though, that friendly models still cannot be moved through,

 

Which is in regards to the Tank's move, not the enemy.  You can't Tank Shock your own dudes.

 

 

If the Tank would move into contact with a friendly model, <snip> it immediately stops moving I " away.

[Magpie]

Although the movement phase bit doesn't say it you cannot move through any model friends or enemies at anytime other than the tank shock.

[Gentlemanloser]

Do you have a reference to that?

 

If it's not a restriction in the Movement Phase, then you can move through friendly minis.

[Raeven]

Though unrelated to this topic, the topic of moving through models keeps coming up.

 

You cannot move through models.  It does not matter if they are friendly or enemy.  The Models in the Way rule (pg 10) sets two restrictions when moving.  First, that you must maintain 1 inch of separation from all enemy models unless you are in close combat.  Second, "To move past, they must go around."  People seem to be reading this to mean, "To move past enemy models, they must go around."  That is not what the rule says.  The two sentences are two separate conditions for when there are models in the way.

 

 

 

 Although the movement phase bit doesn't say it, you cannot move through any models friends or enemies at anytime other than tank shock.

 

Correct.  And technically, you are not moving through models, but forcing the models out of the path of the vehicle (which they then regroup back to original positions if the vehicle moves past said model /fluff).

 

 

 Magpie

I think it is important to note that the models do not "move out of the way" but rather are "moved out of the way".
It isn't a "move" as such and so isn't restricted by distance, difficult terrain and so forth, if the shortest distance you need to move them is 24" through a forest then so be it.

 

If this was the case, why put in the caveat that any unit that cannot move out of the way is removed from the game as a casualty?  Because if you can always move the whole group of models under the vehicle out from under it, those models can never be killed with a Tank Shock. 

 

I don't think it is meant to read "the Shortest safe distance to keep your models alive."  Otherwise, how could a tank shock ever cause a unit to be pushed off the table, be pushed out of coherency, and ever be crushed by a tank?

[Magpie]

Do you have a reference to that?

 

If it's not a restriction in the Movement Phase, then you can move through friendly minis.

Page 21 Has a list of things that restrict movement.

[Gentlemanloser]

All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move - up to the 2D6 distance you rolled earlier - following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be move dwithin l" of enemy models. Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, cannot pass through gaps narrower than their base, and cannot move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are

not charging.

 

The 'still' has been used both here, and in the Tank shock section later.

 

But nowhere earlier, and not in the Movement section.

 

It appears that GW have left out some *important* movement restrictions from the movement section...

 

Edit: Do you count minis in the same unit as 'friendly' models you can't move through?

[Magpie]

 

"If this was the case, why put in the caveat that any unit that cannot move out of the way is removed from the game as a casualty?  Because if you can always move the whole group of models under the vehicle out from under it, those models can never be killed with a Tank Shock. "

 

 

The caveat is there to cover what would happen if the unit is unable to get out of the way, should that ever arise.

 

 

 

 

I don't think it is meant to read "the Shortest safe distance to keep your models alive."  Otherwise, how could a tank shock ever cause a unit to be pushed off the table, be pushed out of coherency, and ever be crushed by a tank?

 

 

 

Tank shock isn't meant to kill anyone. The main purpose of tank shock is to cause an enemy unit to take a morale check and run away if they fail. the ONLY time the move out of the way thing happens is the very rare occasion when the tank ends its move on top of a unit. There is a slight chance that this might kill some models in a very peculiar situation.

 

 

 

 

The 'still' has been used both here, and in the Tank shock section later.

 

But nowhere earlier, and not in the Movement section.

It appears that GW have left out some *important* movement restrictions from the movement section...

 

 

 

Either that or they again have placed a bit much faith in us to read all the rules and understand a pretty basic principle out of doing so without it being bluntly stated.

 

 

 

Edit: Do you count minis in the same unit as 'friendly' models you can't move through?

 

 

Yes. otherwise charging units would always be compelled to have all of their models in base contact. If a guy is blocking the door way you can't move through him, regardless of who's unit he is in.

[Ushtarador]

 

..There is a slight chance that this might kill some models in a very peculiar situation.

 

Could you construct such a situation for us in paint? :D

[Magpie]

It would be along the lines that we have spoken about earlier, the unit would have to be hard up against the table edge or buildings or enemy units etc.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Yes. otherwise charging units would always be compelled to have all of
their models in base contact. If a guy is blocking the door way you
can't move through him, regardless of who's unit he is in.

 

No it wouldn't.  Move through is different to occupy the same space.

 

If you can't move through the minis in the same unit, then you can't;

 

 

After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the
following conditions:

 

You'd always have to follow the 'initial charger' section and always move the next closest mini to the target unit.

 

Which isn't the case.

 

You can move in any order, which would imply that you can move minis behind others, through those in front.

 

 

Either that or they again have placed a bit much faith in us to read
all the rules and understand a pretty basic principle out of doing so
without it being bluntly stated.

 

No, it's not written logically.

 

Both 'stills' imply that this restriction has been explained originally, earlier in the rules.

 

I can't find this to be the case.

[Raeven]

It says it quite simply, on page 10. 

 

"To move past (MODELS IN THE WAY), they must go around."

 

Just because the previous sentence starts by talking about enemy models and how far you must stay away from them, does not mean the second sentence refers to just enemy models.  It means all models must be moved around.  The two sentences on page 21 and 85 support this conclusion.

[Gentlemanloser]

Really?

 

The whole passage is;

 

 

MODELS IN THE WAY

A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase. To move past, they must go around.

 

Why would you think the "must go around" is referencing anything but the enemy model in the preceding sentence?

 

No where, in the entire section, mentions 'friendly models' at all.

[Raeven]

Because the entire section is talking about MODELS IN THE WAY, not just enemy models.  If it was as you say, it would have read, ENEMY MODELS IN THE WAY.  The first sentence is a caveat on all movement.  The second sentence is the restriction on movement for all models.

 

You cannot get within 1" of enemy MODELS IN THE WAY unless they are charging into close combat in the assault phase. 

 

To move past MODELS IN THE WAY, you must go around.

 

 

Anyway, back on topic, when can a tank shock crush a unit underfoot?  About the only scenario I can see it being possible, by the interpretation of everyone here, is that the unit being shocked is completely surrounded by models, whether friendly or enemy.  Not even boxing a unit in is enough to crush them it seems.

[Gentlemanloser]

There are no other 'models in the way', other than enemy models (unless you are charging).

 

That's the entirety of the section.  That's all it says.  Anything else is wishful thinking and assumption.

 

To move past dice, you must go around.  To move past your opponents hand, you must move around.  To move past *that terrain feature that isn't impassible* you must go around.

 

Surely you can see just how wrong and silly this is?

 

The second sentence is a clause of the first sentence.  And can't be taken on its own.

 

 

Anyway, back on topic, when can a tank shock crush a unit underfoot? 
About the only scenario I can see it being possible, by the
interpretation of everyone here, is that the unit being shocked is
completely surrounded by models, whether friendly or enemy.  Not even
boxing a unit in is enough to crush them it seems.

 

I don't think the rules allow anyone to be crushed.  The entire unit can just move in the direction the Tank came from, to escape, if that's the only route left.

 

There's no restriction on that.

[Magpie]

 

No it wouldn't.  Move through is different to occupy the same space.

 

 

No it isn't. To move through something you must, even if only momentarily, occupy the same space. That's why you can't walk through a door when someone is standing blocking the doorway.

 

 

 

No, it's not written logically.

 

Both 'stills' imply that this restriction has been explained originally, earlier in the rules.

 

I can't find this to be the case.

 

 

Then make the leap that still implies the normal case is that you can't move through models of any type, it's not that big a step.

 

Can you not see that drawing that one circumstantial conclusion makes it all fall into place?

 

 

 

Because the entire section is talking about MODELS IN THE WAY, not just enemy models.  If it was as you say, it would have read, ENEMY MODELS IN THE WAY.  The first sentence is a caveat on all movement.  The second sentence is the restriction on movement for all models.

 

You cannot get within 1" of enemy MODELS IN THE WAY unless they are charging into close combat in the assault phase. 

 

To move past MODELS IN THE WAY, you must go around.

 

 

It's a pretty good sign that if you have to add words to a sentence to establish your interpretation then your interpretation is flawed.

 

The s no subject for the second sentence. "To move past they must go around" can only be a continuation of the subject from the first sentence.

I see what you are saying and I agree that you cannot move through models. The proof of that is not here.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, back on topic, when can a tank shock crush a unit underfoot?  About the only scenario I can see it being possible, by the interpretation of everyone here, is that the unit being shocked is completely surrounded by models, whether friendly or enemy.  Not even boxing a unit in is enough to crush them it seems.

 

As I said before crushing units underfoot is not the intended outcome of this rule. It is a fairly rare situation that would result in that.