Advice against eldar

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Any advice about going against eldar with thousand sons? He runs mech dar, full sized dire avenger squads and a full fire dragon squad in wave serpants, plus over tanks as well, I think he takes a farseer and an autarch not sure. Any advice?

[KnightOfBAAL]

die in a blaze of glory

[Xenith]

I wish I could give all of my days likes to you, Milkman.

 

This topic came up when the eldar were released.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277612-how-to-deal-with-the-new-eldar/?hl=%2Bdeal+%2Bwith+%2Beldar&do=findComment&comment=3411491

 

Interestingly, Eldars ability to deal with AV12 is neutralised by fiends having 5++, IWND. A dakkafield may be useful.

 

If there is only 1 Fire Dragon unit, then you have to present it with too many options to kill. Fragons are wasted on anything less than AV13.

 

You could actually go all infantry and 4++ and render the fragons pointless - about 350pts right there. Although they will still murder oblits, they should have a harder time getting to them.

 

Against Mech dar - obliterators, autocannon havocs.

 

Take lots of anti tank.

[Ethrion]

Heldrakes to vector strike across the tanks, T5 obliterators to swap between modes of firepower, maulerfields to rush and put pressure on the tanks, Ahriman to infiltrate D3 rubric marines, obliterators etc.. maybe bikes for some melta mobility and zippability in general. Maybe daemon prince with black mace, wings, psychic scream power...

[*Furyou Miko]

Yeah, against Eldar, TSons are better than normal Marines because we don't really have to worry about Bladestorm (although wave serpent kamehameha spam is still a pain, I expect).

[Tenebris]

Sigh, spam Heldlrakes, Obliterators and Bikers

 

The eldar are fast, the Tsons are slow...

 

It will be nasty. 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

My main problem is my anti tank is my pair of predators, I have some sorcerer models I could use as oblierators, but they are not really built with that in mind. Might a bog standard chaos marine squad with plasma gun and autocannon behind a defence line with quad gun be an idea? that could sit at the back with the home objectives whilst the rubrics get up and close drawing fire. Might a dreadnought with either lascannons or autocannons be any good?
I do a have 6 man noise marine squad (blastmaster, sonic blaster and champ with claw). might that help?
 

[Tenebris]

I have found Blastmaster Noisies one of the best units to counter Eldar. It is death for their infantry since the weapon ignores cover and it has a high strength that allows for insta kills. The true problem is the Wave Serpent, those things are nasty and very tough and very shooty. My advice is to load on Obliterators, use a rotation of lascannon, plasmacannon and assault cannot to open them but still this is at best a limited resource. Predators are good but they are also prime targets and the Eldar have ample resources to kill them by turn two/three, leaving you open for the mop up phase.

 

Aegis is good but it is static, needs a solid complement of crew to hold and a character with a solid BS to operate the guns. Counting all that it is expensive. 

 

As I see it to counter Eldar you need to spam firepower, so better load on autocannons all across the army. It would work but it would leave you vulnerable to other things.

 

In short get as many ranged weapons as possible, get as much cover as possible, do not try to run after them and allow your ranged weapons to do this instead. Blastmaster is golden and load as many squads as you can with it, MSU config is the best IMO. Use Predators, Brutes, Marines and all to provide a torrent of autocannon fire. Sadly the prohibitive cost of Thousand Sons would make them for a poor tarpit option...

[Narse]

I've been playing my wife's Eldar.   My suggestion is to hide behind fortifications.  In theory, if you take larger fortifications such as the Firestorm Redoubt you can hide enough units and objectives so that the Eldar player must come to you.  Otherwise he's firing lanes will be useless.  Once he is coming to you, you should be able to concentrate fire and pick off targets one at a time.  Then using your superior armor save make late game objective grabs.

 

At least that's the theory.

[oreaper84]

I have tried to find key ways to beat those blasted elves for some time now and it comes down to this....you have to out-play your opponent. They are faster than you, have better transports, better firepower, and specialize better. Countering the extreme specialization of eldar is the only key to victory. Avoid firelanes at all costs as they will just pummel you. If he's running heavy mech, then chances are he will blow chunks at CC so hide....hide.... hide some more, then pounce. As has been said maulers, bikes, even raptors w/ a fist will scare the bejeezus outta him (or at least it should). Your shooty portion of the army should be awaiting the time when your speedy threats rip open those serpents in h2h b/c seriously what are 3 dire avenger squads gunna do against your mauler? Id run 2 big bike squads and a drake at least, each with a high str char. Best of Luck!

[Xenith]

As an Eldar player, I usually comment in threads like this with things that I do not like seeing in my opponents armies.

 

In the case of Chaos, there isn't too much, unfortunately.

 

Deepstrikers are what I fear. Combimeltas in the rear can take out a tank, heavy flamers in my backfield wipe out my troops. The deepstriking also nullifies my speed advantage.

 

Units of 4 termies, 3 combi melta, 1 heavy flamer, power maces. Probably mark of Tzeentch to taste. That's what I'd fear as an Eldar player.

[Narse]

Oh yeah, the Burning Brand is pretty good as it is Torrent and fries everything except wraithguard.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

It will be 1500pts, not got my codex on me at the moment, but I'm thinking something like this:

Either Ahriman or lvl 3 sorcerer with mark of tzeentch, 4++ invun thingymabob, familar
2 squads of 10+ thousand sons

1 10 man squad of Chaos marines with autocannon and plasma gun, possibly with either close combat weapons or an eagis defence line and quad gun for taking down the serpants

2 predators with lascannon sponsons

5 noise marine, one with blast master and if I have the points either a termicide squad or another HQ sorcerer or possilby a dreadnought with autocannon or lascannons?
Edit: Any idea on how good a daemon prince would be? He should be able to crack open a fell serpents :P

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Here is the list I am planning to take:

Sorcerer Zarathustra Suicune with Force staff and 2 extra
Mastery levels Mark of Tzeentch  Spell familiar Sigil of
Corruption 165ts

 

Dreadnought Thutmosis with reaper autocannon 105pts

 

Thousand sons Squad Ptolemy  5 extra rubrics 265pts

 

Thousand son Squad Belshzar  4 extra rubrics 242pts

 

Chaos marine squad Ronove with 5 extra marines Autocannon plasma gun lightning claw  and combi plasma  190pts

 

Noise marine Squad Jaime Lightning claw Blastmaster 140pts

 

Predator  with Lascannon sponsons and twin linked lascannon turret   140ts

 

Predator with Lascannon sponsons twin linked lascannon turret pts140pts

Aegis defence line with quad gun 100pts

Army total 1486pts
Not sure what to spend the rest of the points on, and am thinking of possibly swapping the dreadnought for a termicide squad, though I admit I would possibly the drop the turret upgrades to get a 5 termi squad and a reaper autocannon as I imagine that deepstriking behind the serpant spam would be quite nice.

[Ethrion]

Terminators are always a good option and they'll give a little bit more of a different threat. If you can afford to take Ahriman though then you'll get the brilliant infiltrate ability and that'll really throw a spanner in the works for the enemy. Suddenly the static obvious deployment becomes very unclear and mobile. You could be getting those rubrics into seriously dangerous positions straight away or getting the heavy weapons into deadly firing position.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'm not sure infiltrate would be worth it as my opponent has serpant spam :/

[Ethrion]

Yeah maybe not, just a thought as it does change what you're showing them at deployment. I always like to try and include infiltrators, outflankers etc...to give the opponent a bit of a curve ball. But yeah, not vital in every situation.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

An idea to use the last 14pts would be to swap the dread's combat arm for a missile launcher, not sure what I could do with the last 4 pts, give one of the noise marines a sonic blaster?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Could a squad of havoks with lascannons be any good? Against his serpant spam they would be hopefully be able to down one a turn.
And which do you think would be better on the dreadnought, twin linked lascannon or reaper autocannon?

[librisrouge]

Any unit that can throw down multiple high strength shots, or reliably get at fast vehicles in melee, is the answer to Serpent Spam. If you've got the Havocs, consider using them but don't write off the Predators to do so since they fulfill the same role ultimately.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Was thinking I would drop the Noise Marines for them, as 4 S9 shots a turn are better then one S8 blast, even if it does ignore cover.
Avindicator could be an idea I am thinking due to it's S10 and large blast may be able to hit multiple serpants, and could then have a rhino or some extra bodies on the table.

[Xenith]

^^ I just ran the math out of curiosity, and 4 Autocannons will essentially inflict identical damage to a serpent as 4 lascannons, assuming the shield is up.

 

Although 4 of either weapon still, on average, inflict less than 1.5 hull points of damage per round of shooting. Fewer if youfactor in holofields or flat out.

 

While the Blastmaster ignores the jink cover save, it can still only inflict 1HP damage max, which is vastly inferior to the havoc options.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Hmm left my havoks at home :/ Could a 6 man raptor squad with power mace, 2 melta guns and mark of slaneesh work?

[Tenebris]

Have you considered a Forgefiend or a Maulerfiend. The first, while with BS 3 is not a great shooter, has two very powerful Hades Autocannons that can and will kill a Wave Serpent, and once per game you can even use the Daemonforge ability. The Maulerfiend on the other side can hammer open any vehicle given the chance. Take in pairs and have fun. 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Did think about one as the model has grown on me, only problem is that it is expensive, both points and money wise, and I imagine a pain to transport.
Will think about it though, as it does seem like a good idea, would want the cat head from the tomb king warsphynx for it though I reckon, or possibly convert the head to be a deranged Anubis. Plus there is no way I could paint decently in time for the game, my opponent has done Japanese watercolor esk scenes on his aspect warriors (dire avengers and scorpians) banners.
Could a third tri las predator be an idea for now, as I coudl model rep it with a rhino or vindicator (the vindicator could be good, but it's range means it would be likely to be shot up before it could fire).