Dark angels vs Tau

[Barnie25]

Hi guys,

 

I should have had a battle against a GK opponent tonight but unfortunately he bailed on me. However I did manage to score a game in the near future against a Tau Empire opponent. I think he will run a list with a mix of pieces so no Riptide spam but will contain a Riptide non the less. Do you guys have any experience with facing Tau?

 

What has been affective for you guys against them. This thread is not so much an army list review thread as it is a general tactics guide for dealing with Tau.

 

To me terminators in LR©'s would seem quite potent if they don't longstrike them to death but I haven't actually faced them. Any tips?

[Lysere]

I don't know the best way to deal with Tau from a DA perspective but remember there are absolutely no decent close combat units in their army so anything you have that can smash through heavier units will be complete overkill. Plasma, Missiles, Las-Cannons, anything that has high strength and good ap will cut through their elite units very well. Bikes are also great counters to Tau because it negates their speed advantage.

[Barnie25]

Won't they cut up your bikers like a piece of fine French cheese?

[Pyro X]

I was thinking of trying something from the new inq codexs, you could try and deep strike an Inq right besode plasma guys (because tau <3 them some plasma) to make all their BS to 1. it would buy you another turn at least. and for 110? points I think its not bad, or you could use him to scout some termies and move up and do the same.

[Lysere]

Won't they cut up your bikers like a piece of fine French cheese?

 

Only if you let him. In order to ignore cover he needs Pathfinders, which are easy to kill with Whirlwinds, or just about anything for that matter. Whirlwinds can just ignore all their saves without needing line of sight.

 

Also plasma Siphon works against any 'pulse,' 'burst,' or 'plasma' weapon they have. Which makes up most of their shooting.

[elmo]

 

Won't they cut up your bikers like a piece of fine French cheese?

 

Only if you let him. In order to ignore cover he needs Pathfinders,

 

Or a Mark'o suit (XV8 commander with Marker drones at BS5) or any other unit with marker lights. The Tau , I know as I play them, have plenty of units which generate MLs. Bikers will be shredded if he plays a decent list. Get into CC as soon as possible and it will be painful for the Tau. Termies are good as long as you do correct target selection and take out the dangerous units first ie Plasma/melta but it is hard to give you advice without knowing what your opponent will be playing.

 

Also plasma Siphon works against any 'pulse,' 'burst,' or 'plasma' weapon they have. Which makes up most of their shooting.

 

Most but not all - Ion (Riptide/Ionhead) or missiles (XV88 Missilesides or XV8 with Missile launchers, TL and singles) or Railguns (XV8 Railsides/Railheads)  so be careful.

I tend to play a mixture of Missile/plasma, melta/plasma and even flamers on my suits, burst cannons are not so common. It will work against the FW though.

[gundog8324]

 

 

Also plasma Siphon works against any 'pulse,' 'burst,' or 'plasma' weapon they have. Which makes up most of their shooting.

 

Unfortunately this is is mentioned in the GK FAQ not the Inquisition FAQ, now almost any sane person would agree that the same wargear taken on essentially the same unit with copy paste rules, for the same cost should function the same way.  Alas that may not be the case(especially in a tournament, after all we have the DE/Eldar Harlequin Veil of Tears disparity  and in 5th ed the Typhoon/Cyclone Missile Launchers  and the Storm Shield, and the Land Raider Transport Capacity inequities lasted 75% of the edition.  Honestly if GW cared more about game balance than they did selling models and books, they would essentially redo the FAQs when they released a new Codex.( or at least mention potential new interactions within the newly released codex's FAQ)

 

I apologize for getting ranty but I still get challenges and grumbles at tournaments about things like Warp Storm Interactions, Fateweaver's reroll, and at the most recent a debate about Hive Guard/Nova Powers and LoS stuff and that is stuff that has existed since 6th came out, if you use Inquisition stuff contact the TO ahead of time or be sure your opponent isn't a RAW Nazi about fairly obvious RAI stuff that GW hasn't had the opportunity to FAQ yet.

[Major_Gilbear]

@ gundog8324:

 

I agree, and actually I don't know why all the FAQ stuff isn't one big document anyway.

 

I mean, even if you don't play or own all the other codices, it's useful to know what the changes are to them as you will no doubt be playing against those armies anyway. Plus it also makes it easier for GW to update all the items at once and then not need to re-upload twenty documents.

[SnaRf.za]

One of the most important things that I have learned when fighting Tau:

 

If you deepstrike ANYTHING, make sure that no Riptides have LoS to the units that just landed.

They CAN and WILL put a S8+ AP2 pie plate on that unit with Interceptor.

[Lysere]

One of the most important things that I have learned when fighting Tau:

 

If you deepstrike ANYTHING, make sure that no Riptides have LoS to the units that just landed.

They CAN and WILL put a S8+ AP2 pie plate on that unit with Interceptor.

 

Or you could deepstrike 10 units, in terrain of some kind, and make him have to pick which one he shoots at. Drop pods are the best way to do this because then not only do you actually get to spread out a bit before he shoots, but you can place them really close to the riptide to negate it's choice to fire the large blast. (Can't place a template over friendly models)

 

Deep striking termies against tau is bad, deep striking assault marines against tau is bad, but drop pods are the single greatest way to negate multiple turns of shooting. Also remember if he fires anything with interceptor he can't then fire it in his own turn.

[Polythemus]

Tau Scouting Report

Farsight is actually quite nasty in CC with a weapon that strikes at  I5 STR 4 AP2 making him sammies equivalent for the most part. 

As has been mentioned tau can fire pieplates at deep strikers, but not outside of LOS. Since interceptors fire at the end of movement phase you will need to use your armor or terrain to negate LOS. also if you land within close proximity to pie-plating interceptors you may reduce or nullify the ability of your deep striking unit to be targeted.

Vehicles (devilfish) can overwatch IF THE UPGRADE WAS purchased.

fusion blasters get the melta rule at 9" whereas imperium meltaguns only get it at 6".

killing the firewarriors will result in reduced effeicincy of the whole army.

Some netlist tau armies will now contain what is lovingly reffered to as a "buffmander" a commander who hangs out behind but attached to riptides, benefitting from their high T and 2+ save and grant a whole slew of special rules. including ignore cover, twin-linked, tankhunter/monsterhunter/stubborn. Whether this is actually legal is open for discussion.

 

Tau do not have much that can threaten AV 14, besides hammerheads and fusionblasters. it would be reasonable to include some AV 14. 

outflanking black knights are the best way to deal with riptides, giving you a 60% chance at being in range for at least one volley, since tau players invariably bunker in one corner.

Whirlwinds will help vs Fire warriors and pathfinders.

when considering charging a portion of the tau gunline try to either A.) charge with two units, the first being sacrificial and drawing overwatch the second being the terminators or hardhitters or B.) charge a unit at the end of the gunline limiting the amount of fire you take to supporting fire.

[Fulminata]

I fight against the Tau a lot and have face a Riptide many times. That thing is hard to kill. But, I have destroyed it more times in the recent past with my Ravenwing Black Knights and their awesome plasma talons. The AP2 weapon weapon is awesome, I also shoot it with the rad grenades to lowers its toughness. And I have recently combined it with the Psychic power of Misfortune (forces an opponent to re-roll successful saves). That is my two cents. Try it and you may find they are almost unbeatable.

[gundog8324]

 

Some netlist tau armies will now contain what is lovingly reffered to as a "buffmander" a commander who hangs out behind but attached to riptides, benefitting from their high T and 2+ save and grant a whole slew of special rules. including ignore cover, twin-linked, tankhunter/monsterhunter/stubborn. Whether this is actually legal is open for discussion.

 

 

This is legal only if they buy the Drones becuase then it becomes a "joinable" unit, much like in a Tyranid army you can attach a Prime to a unit of Tyrant Guard+ a Tyrant or a Brood of 2 Carnifexes but not a single Carnifex because lone MCs do not count as "joinable"

[march10k]

I find that my list, while it is an uphill fight against some other armies, eats tau for breakfast.  They have a hard enough time dealing with AV14.  As long as I'm charging the obligatory riptide on turn two and my crusaders are carefully "shaping" LOS between his units and mine (while blazing away), it's hard to lose.  I guess maybe Tau were the latest cheese when I crafted the list, so it is kind of a "counter tau" list, but its agro is so high that it works well against about anything, so I guess it's "accidentally TAC"

[facmanpob]

 

 

Some netlist tau armies will now contain what is lovingly reffered to as a "buffmander" a commander who hangs out behind but attached to riptides, benefitting from their high T and 2+ save and grant a whole slew of special rules. including ignore cover, twin-linked, tankhunter/monsterhunter/stubborn. Whether this is actually legal is open for discussion.

 

This is legal only if they buy the Drones becuase then it becomes a "joinable" unit, much like in a Tyranid army you can attach a Prime to a unit of Tyrant Guard+ a Tyrant or a Brood of 2 Carnifexes but not a single Carnifex because lone MCs do not count as "joinable"

A strict reading of the rule would say that because the Riptide CAN take a drone then it is a 'joinable' unit; it doesn't HAVE to take the drone in order to become so. This is because the rule about joining units forbids units that "always" consists of 1 model... But I will agree that it isn't 100% cut and dried :)

[elmo]

Some netlist tau armies will now contain what is lovingly reffered to as a "buffmander" a commander who hangs out behind but attached to riptides, benefitting from their high T and 2+ save and grant a whole slew of special rules. including ignore cover, twin-linked, tankhunter/monsterhunter/stubborn. Whether this is actually legal is open for discussion.

This is legal only if they buy the Drones becuase then it becomes a "joinable" unit, much like in a Tyranid army you can attach a Prime to a unit of Tyrant Guard+ a Tyrant or a Brood of 2 Carnifexes but not a single Carnifex because lone MCs do not count as "joinable"

A strict reading of the rule would say that because the Riptide CAN take a drone then it is a 'joinable' unit; it doesn't HAVE to take the drone in order to become so. This is because the rule about joining units forbids units that "always" consists of 1 model... But I will agree that it isn't 100% cut and dried

This has been discussed here

Or you can attach Shadowsun and have a stealthed Riptide.

On the subject of attaching ICs to the Riptide, the books are pretty clear on this:

1. ICs can join other units, except units that are (a) vehicles, or ( always consist of only one model (BRB 39).

2. Drones taken as upgrades by members of a unit are themselves members of that unit in all regards (C:TE 33).

3. The Riptide is not a vehicle.

4. The Riptide may purchase up to two SMDs, and thus is not part of a unit that always consists of only one model.

5. Therefore, the Riptide is a valid candidate unit for an IC to join whether or not it actually has any SMDs.

"They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see page 77 BRB) or units
that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and
Monstrous Creatures)."

The question is how the BRB rule is written, not forgetting that codex trumps BRB.

The Riptide, although it is a monstrous creature does not always consist of a single model (C:TE 33). This option of attaching shielded missile drones therefore cancels out the BRB rule. The BRB allows for exemptions in the phrase "most vehicles and monstrous creatures".

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Tau rules discussion end here, please. There's another place in the forum for that. However, The alert stays for DA players that the riptde may have something attached to it, depending on rule interpretation.

[elmo]

Apologies - got carried away.

[facmanpob]

My fault!

Back to the OP.... the problem with trying to design an anti-Tau list is that without knowing your opponent's army, we can't really know how he is going to fight. The Tau "suffer" from having several very good builds, all of which are competitive. As an aside I am being driven to distraction trying to figure out what list I want to build my new Tau army to!

For example....

Is he running a Farsight Enclaves list?

- If so, you can expect to face lots and lots of battlesuits. Expect these to be backed up with multiple Riptides and missile armed Broadsides. One of the Riptides will have the Earth Caste Pilot Array, which allows for much better chances of novacharging, meaning the Heavy Burst Cannon becomes a potent weapon.... 30" S6 AP4 Heavy 12 Rending.... remember that he will also arm the Riptide with either a twin-linked fusion blaster (a melta weapon with range in between meltagun and multimelta) or a TL plasma rifle. He will almost certainly give it the Intercept ability (via an EWO) and may even give it a Velocity Tracker so that he can choose Skyfire if he wants to, so don't try to deep strike anywhere near him.... he will also probably have solo crisis suits with fusion blasters deep striking in to take out any vehicles you have, and maybe they'll be carrying some of the wargear that makes open terrain into difficult terrain.... oh, and most of his army will have Jump-shoot-jump, as they will be jet pack infantry, so trying to catch up to them with your terminators will be tough as he would be almost as mobile as a Ravenwing army.

Is he running a Tau Empire list?

- with a Fireblade HQ? Then one of his Fire Warrior teams will be able to shoot an extra shot in the shooting phase.... 36 pulse rifle shots into your terminators

- with an Ethereal? then all of his Fire Warriors within 12" will fire an extra shot if he chooses that particular power.... so your terminators will face the one thing that they hate more than anything.... torrent fire from a Strength 5 weapon.... up to 36 shots per squad!

- with a 'Raven' Crisis suit? all of the shooting from that unit will be twin-linked and have ignores cover, and if he gives it the Puretide Engram Neurochip will be able to choose from Monster Hunters, Tank Hunters, Stubborn, Counter-attack or Furious charge

- imagine the above in a unit with Commander Farsight and 6 other battlesuits (yep that's right, the Farsight bomb is actually more effective from a Codex Tau army rather than a Farsight Enclaves army imo)

- does he run Forgeworld units? The XV107 R'varna, Remora drones (cheap flyers), the Barracuda fighter (which at 25% fewer points than our flyers mounts a 60" S7 AP3 Heavy 3 main cannon that can be overcharged to 60" S8 AP3 Large Blast with Get's Hot, a twin-linked missile pod which is essentially a 36" autocannon, and 8 further S5 shots that ignore Jink, Supersonic or Flat Out cover saves.... oh and it can take 4 S8 missiles at a reasonable cost), Tetra skimmers with built in markerlights..... etc etc

But the worst of all is a combined Tau/Farsight list, taking the best of all with few downsides....

However, the one thing I can say in all of this, is that most Tau armies rely on markerlights to achieve full potential. Riptides with ion accelerators like to be boosted to BS6 so they can overcharge their weapon and reroll Get's Hot, whilst also using up markerlights to gain Ignores Cover. Just the above uses up 5 markerlights for that single bit of Riptide shooting. The Tau army won't collapse if you take out all of his marker units early, but it will make it a more fair fight...

So my advice would be to read up on markerlights and how they work, and make sure your opponent plays the rules correctly (I have heard stories of Tau players who genuinely didn't understand the rules properly and used them incorrectly giving them a huge advantage!)

[SvenONE]

I agree with facmonpob about the difficulty of countering Tau without either knowing the list, or tailoring it specifically for Tau (TAC lists for me are always weakest against Tau).

 

I should note that the XV107 is still experimental, so if your opponent is using it you have every right to decline the game or ask them to remove it from the list.  It's not a legal unit right now.

 

I can't seem to nail down Tau but there are some principles that I've found helpful that others have also mentioned:

 

In order of priority (highest -> lowest):

• Dealing with Markerlights -- as best you can at least
• Completely blocking LOS -- remember that placing terrain goes hand in hand with your deployment
• Getting as much of your army in their threat range as soon as possible -- fast attack / drop pods
• Redundancy in your list
• Close Combat (easier said than done)
• Going for STW/LB/Denying Objectives -- Trying to actually hold an objective vs Tau is fraught with peril!
• Knowing you're going to be shot to pieces and be prepared to lose a lot of units (hence the redundancy)
• Vindicators (only used it once, but took out a ton of markerlights in the process) and drew fire from my infantry

edit:  Just as an aside I did see a venerable MM dreadnought take on a riptide and win once.  Drop podded in and assaulted next turn, tied him up at least 2 turns of combat.  Wouldn't say that it's a sound tactic but it was just the kind of heroics I like to see on the table!!

[facmanpob]

Just to add something that I forgot to add in earlier....

I've spent the last month designing and redesigning Tau lists to see what models I need to buy, and the one thing I have noticed is that with the new Codex they struggle against AV13/14. In the olden days, Broadsides and Hammerheads would make short work of Land Raiders and Predators, but with the Broadside railgun being downgraded it is much more of a struggle for the Tau player to find effective ways of countering heavy armour. Longstrike in a Hammerhead is the most effective unit (and it is very effective), after which the likes of single Crisis suits with fusion blasters or Piranhas are second. Piranhas are not very common in many tournament Tau lists (not sure why as I think they are great - but then I'm used to attack bikes and speeders!), and solo Crisis suits will usually only appear in Farsight Enclave lists due to FOC limitations.

So an effective tactic could be to load up on AV13/14, such as Land Raiders, Vindicators and Predators, and if you can take out Longstrike early, your armour will have a much better time of things and you may be able to steal the initiative.

Finally, avoid taking any flyers.... ours aren't great and every Velocity tracker in his army (and there will be 2 or 3) will be 20 wasted points!

[march10k]

It is true that there are several effective ways to play tau...but none of them are any good at melee (except for Riptide Himself), and none of them are going to be able to deal with multiple AV13+ tanks.  Facing one riptide is a good planning factor, since the max is three anyway, and the opportunity cost of each riptide displacing the sacred cow of tau list-building (crisis teams) is going to put on pressure to limit the opponent to just one.  One riptide is easy meat for a crusader-mounted thundernator squad, every anti-tau list should have one of those.  The crusader is pretty decent at killing fire warriors outside of assault, and since assaulting can trigger fire from multiple units, not just the assaulted one, that's a good thing! 

 

One thing to consider is that, while tau can usually fire in defense of a nearby unit that's being assaulted, almost all of them can only shoot once per turn in that capacity.  What does that mean?  Three things.  First, multi-charging carries less of a penalty, since it doesn't generate additional defensive fire the way that it does against other armies  (if two FW units are side by side, might as well charge both, there's no downside [you lose the charge bonus, but you don't want to sweep them on the charge anyway], it'll keep you un-shot-at longer, and keep both of them swinging, not shooting, their rifles).  Second, charging with more than one of your own units at the same time is a great thing.  He can either dilute his fire and take a model or two out of three different charging units, or throw all of that fire against the first charging unit, and the others get through un-shot-at.  Third, the worst thing you can do against tau is charge him with exactly one of your units.

 

What would I field against an unknown tau opponent? One mounted thundernator squad, two ten-man assault squads with dual flamers and power swords, one lascannon devastator squad led by a prescience libby with PFG (running total ~1300 points), and then fill the rest out with cheap tactical squads.  The only purpose of the tactical squads is to be scoring (and if any tau are within 24", the bolter fire is a bonus).  The terminators and assault squads simul-charge in the same general area (because you want to limit defensive shooting, it's a 6" bubble around the charged unit, which is a limiting factor on a gun with 30" range!) while the lascannons provide needed high-strength AP2 shooting and the tacticals just try to stay alive (actually, the assault squads should be attracting fire away from them, so that should be easy) to cap objectives.  But throwing 20 assault marines and 5 thundernators into assault, supported by shooting from a crusader, should work wonders.  And with ~60 marines and 5 termies, you won't even be outnumbered, since only his (qualitatively inferior) troops choices and pathfinders are cheaper than you, while he's spending more than a terminator apiece on battlesuits.

[Lysere]

It is true that there are several effective ways to play tau...but none of them are any good at melee (except for Riptide Himself)...

 

I'd like to make a correction here. Riptides are awful in close combat. Do they seem good compared to the entire rest of the Tau codex aside from special characters? Well yeah, he's an MC. But Riptides, and in particular Riptides with the Earth Caste Pilot Array, can't reliably kill more than a model or two a turn. If you assaul a riptide with normal marines and he doesn't have an attached commander with retro thrusters, he might kill you in 5 turns. Might being the key word there. Low attacks, and very poor WS (even worse with the earth caste pilot array) do not make a unit good in combat. Even if you don't get armor saves, losing a marine or two to deny the riptide a turn of firing is an awesome trade. Honestly Scouts make great anti-riptide units, as their worse armor doesn't make a difference against the riptide, and they can have just as many attacks as marines. Plus if you really want to you can give the Sergeant an Axe/Fist/T-Hammer to allow you to get through the riptides armor.

 

In fact Kroot and Vespid are the only actual units that are 'good' in close combat, and only against certain targets. Vespid are good against marines, kroot against orks and IG.

[march10k]

Um...farside, not riptide. Oops.

[facmanpob]

As far as CC goes, if your opponent comes to the game with a Farsight bomb then you're in for CC Tau, but only from the bomb, the rest of the army will still be actively seeking to avoid CC. Even the Kroot aren't that good in CC, they're just a lot better than the rest of the Tau troops! The difficulty is getting into CC with the rest of his army. The key, as has been mentioned above, is saturation.

 

For example, if you are thinking of using drop pods, don't drop a single pod in his backfield, his Riptides and Broadsides will shoot it out of the sky with their Early Warning Overrides. Drop 4 or 5 pods in his backfield, and shoot the bejeesus out of anything that isn't a troop choice (unless he's packing an Ethereal, in which case he will torrent fire you to death on the next turn!).

 

If you are thinking of using a flyer, ally in some guard and use a squadron of 3 Valks or Vendettas, or maybe use one of these new-fangled Stormwing formation thingies if the rules are any good. He will have some good AA in his list via liberal use of Velocity Trackers, so try to overwhelm his AA defence.

 

tl;dr - saturation is the key to overwhelming his defence.