Phoebus Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 Someone mentioned the disparity of Valdor urging Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons on Horus' say-so, despite the Emperor's original orders. The way I understood it, the Emperor sent Russ and Valdor to bring Magnus back on account of him breaking the wards protecting the Imperial Palace. At that point, the punishment was censure and imprisonment because Magnus was naively and illegally "trying to do the right thing" while trying to warn the Emperor of something completely unbelievable. While they were enroute, Horus contacted them and provided "additional information", which led them to agree with the Warmaster that Magnus and the Thousand Sons needed to be destroyed. I don't think Valdor withheld anything from Russ. I think he was simply as convinced by Horus as Russ was. We'll probably never get to hear just what Horus told them, but I'm guessing it was a very creative variation of the events shown in False Gods. The best lies have a grain of truth in them, after all. Perhaps in Horus' account, Magnus had gone mad via sorcery and invited him to rebel against their father. Horus' refusal and promise to inform their father of Magnus' crimes was what prompted the One-Eyed to desperately cover his tracks by reaching out to the Emperor first. Mind you, I'm not saying that's what happened; I'm just offering a possible version of what might have led Valdor to agree that, yeah, Magnus needed a bullet in the head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3554158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 Yeah, but the way its told, its like Adam, Eve and the Serpent where the Serpent(Horus) convinced Eve(Valdor) to do the dirty deed and then Eve(Valdor) got Adam(Russ) to do it as well. If, Valdor was a victim like Russ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3554205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 It could be that Valdor and Russ were both simultaneously told, Valdor was just convinced quicker and his hasty support won Russ over as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3554211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 I thought there was some bit from Ahriman's final fight with Wyrdmake that implied that while Russ and the Wolves might be making an honest mistake in their attack on Prospero, Valdor's actions were less benign. So perhaps Horus managed to convince Valdor that it'd be a better plan to kill Magnus and the sons, and Valdor just flat out lied to Russ and said that the Emperor had changed the orders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3554384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 Inferno really cannot come soon enough :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3554436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 I'm looking forward to it, but the Forgeworld tomes are all written from a loyalist perspective, that's how you get bits like the Death Guard getting all creepy once Mortarion joined them, or some of the weirdness that was the Sons of Horus description. Not only would any information be suspect, but questions like 'what's up with Valdor' and 'Rune Priests, what the hell' really should be handled by the BL team, as they're there to tell a story. Personally I'm really looking forward to the rules for a possessed flame shrouded Warlord titan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3554504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Whilst digging for information on the Night of the Wolf, I came upon clarification on the Emperor's Decree at the Council of Nikaea. In the new edition of Visions of Heresy, it clearly states that no Legions were to employ psykers, 'The Emperor made his ruling. Beyond the exceptions of the Navigators and astropaths, he was adamant that the Legions not employ psykers. Even the hint of sorcery had become dangerous and unacceptable. He commanded that the primarchs close their Librarius departments forthwith and ordered that the primarchs themselves not indulge their undoubted psychic talents.' Vol I, p. 148. From this it is clear that the Rune Priests of the VI Legion are in breach of the Decree and my position has been wrong. As they say, 'I recognize my failing, and will be sure to correct it' :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 'The Emperor made his ruling. Beyond the exceptions of the Navigators and astropaths, he was adamant that the Legions not employ psykers. Even the hint of sorcery had become dangerous and unacceptable. He commanded that the primarchs close their Librarius departments forthwith and ordered that the primarchs themselves not indulge their undoubted psychic talents.' Vol I, p. 148. I really hope we get an explanation for how he thought that this wouldn't go to pieces."Never give an order you know won't be obeyed" and all that. It's not just the Thousand Sons. From what we've seen so far, the World Eaters, Space Wolves, and White Scars flat out ignored the Edict. That's four Legions disobeying direct orders. And even the primarchs not being allowed to use their powers? "Yeah, my sons, I'm an immensely powerful psyker, and some of you have inherited that trait from me. But, you see, while I can freely use my powers, I'm going to forbid you from wielding your birthright. Fnargh." And this part from A Thousand Sons: "I see now I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never have permitted them to know even existed." Such goddamn hubris, to think he could forever keep the truth about the warp from his sons. He creates twenty beings who are almost his equals, and then thinks he can deceive them forever?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Interestingly we even seem to have Russ using a psychic power in Scars... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincite Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I really hope we get an explanation for how he thought that this wouldn't go to pieces.Personally, I hope we don't. I find the Emeperor fascinating precisely because we don't know why or if he cocked things up. Was he arrogant? Was he too trusting? Did he want things to go topsy-turvey? Did he have some other plan that didn't work? I'm impressed with how the Black Library's authors have pulled it off. It's become a great mystery on par with the lost legions, for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Karthak, actually it'd be the Alpha Legion, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers and World Eaters confirmed as breaking the Edict before the Heresy. Six Legions. If we have a confirmation of the White Scars, that's seven. That Edict flew about as well as Prohibition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I think it'd be good if they at least lampshaded it a bit. Similar to how Betrayer mentions the Emperor doing tests on Angron and then just dumping him to hang with the War Hounds (ie. kidnapping him from his buds, discovering his implants are killing him, and then teleporting the very angry guy over to a bunch of strangers for them to deal with). The conclusion the World Eaters reach is that the Emperor is a bit of a dick. It doesn't need to be explicit, but something to indicate that the Emperor wasn't just some 100,000 year old dude who'd managed to learn nothing about dealing with people over the course of his life would be nice. Edit: I believe there's a quote earlier in this thread that has a White Scars Stormdude getting all supermagicky. There's also the Dark Angels, who did obey initially, but ditched it once their little corner of the Heresy started getting Daemony. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Karthak, actually it'd be the Alpha Legion, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers and World Eaters confirmed as breaking the Edict before the Heresy. Six Legions. If we have a confirmation of the White Scars, that's seven. That Edict flew about as well as Prohibition. The Imperial Fists? I thought they stopped using Librarians after the Edict. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 They did what Angron did; they isolated the Librarians from the rest of the Legion. And I did say before the Heresy. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I'd argue that the Fists didn't break the Edict. They didn't return the Librarians to the ranks but they did lock them away and ordered them to stop using their powers. Unless I've missed something from one of the many audio dramas that I haven't bought. Also when do the AL break it? Haven't read Legion for a while but I don't remember any Librarians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted December 28, 2013 Author Share Posted December 28, 2013 Theres a librarian in legion. Its how they hunt grammaticus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 No, that was a mortal. Doesn't count. In Deliverance Lost, we find out that their Librarians had just been..... Secreted away for a rainy day. It was similar to how the Word Bearers just went covert with their Librarians. And since part of the Edict was allowing the former Librarians to be put back into the "rank and file" and the Imperial Fist Librarians had no responsibilities outside the Librarius, locking then up inside the Phalanx and refusing to let them rejoin the rank and file is only a little different from what the World Eaters did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I agree it isn't strictly following what the Emperor said, but it isn't breaking the Edict either as far as the TS, SW, AL and WS did, it's just enforcing it in a different way. It could be that Dorn didn't agree with the Edict, but wouldn't disobey it, so he decided that to store his Librarians until such a day that the Edict is repealed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Locking them in dungeons seems a rather weird way to do it. Angron let his go into battle and he's still considered to have broken the Edict. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 It could be that Dorn absolutely agreed, and felt that psykers were such a threat that he couldn't even risk putting them back on the line. But my personal opinion is that Dorn was thinking about the Palace. Remember, Nykea was immediately after Ullanor, on the Emperor's path back to Terra. Dorn and his Fists were ordered back to Terra alongside Him. Considering his task, and considering certain events like Magnus' showboating entrance, I believe that Dorn's approach to the Librarians was more along the lines of "We can't let you be a part of this, by the Emperor's wishes, and we can't let you remain an independent group, by the Emperor's orders. Until such time as we may be released from this duty or a means to restrict your abilities is devised, you are to be restricted to your quarters aboard the Phalanx." Dorn being Dorn, what needed to be done was done and he moved on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 By ironically forming them into an independent, albeit quarantined, body. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 By ironically forming them into an independent, albeit quarantined, body. Not necessarily. We don't know how they were confined, only that they were confined. We have no idea if they remain a group or not, though either way they are no longer an independent group. By virtue of incarceration, they have lost their independence. However, I cannot believe that the Fists actually disobeyed this order in their handling of it. After all, it is another of the Emperor's orders that prevents them from being returned to the rank and file. The Trial and Edict declared psykers a liability, and the VIIth was ordered to fortify the Palace. Protecting it from liabilities is part of the job. So by the Emperor's orders, the rank and file could not contain ex-Librarians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Yeeah but the Wolves thought they were the Emperor's Executioners and so far, their one "special trait" is they are "dog-lyal" to the Emperor. And they broke the Edict. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Yeah . . . But what does that have to do with the Fists? I am not saying anything about their loyalty, just pointing out that a separate order has potential conflict with the Edict, and from that conflict could be the source of the Fists' approach. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Well, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, Dorn is doing what he thought needed to be done and that made it okay. The Wolves did something similar by allowing their Rune Priests to stay. Granted, the big difference would be the Rune Priests still used their powers while the Fists' Librarians didn't. But honestly, it sounds like a precursor to the famous Black Templar "Burn the Witch!" line of thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/5/#findComment-3555878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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