Conn Eremon Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I am not saying that it is okay, just that it is possible that they chose one order, the fortification and protection of the Emperor, the Palace and Terra, over another, integrate the former Librarians into their previous positions. My personal opinion is, if the above is true, that they obeyed the Edict as well as they were able to. As well as they were allowed to by the Emperor himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3555902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Ah okay. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3555914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Such goddamn hubris, to think he could forever keep the truth about the warp from his sons. He creates twenty beings who are almost his equals, and then thinks he can deceive them forever?! Never his equals, though, and despite all he said the Primarchs were just another tool for him. You are correct though, or rather someone in-universe agrees with you; the reason the Khan and the Emperor had such a big falling out is because the former did not believe an empire can be built upon a lie, to which the Emperor disagreed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3555946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Never his equals, though, and despite all he said the Primarchs were just another tool for him. Did he really see his sons only as tools? From A Thousand Sons: None had ever seen such a dreadful apparition, the true heart of a being so mighty that it could only beat while encased in super- engineered flesh. The Emperor alone recognised this rapturous angel, and his heart broke to see it. “Magnus,” he said. “Father,” replied Magnus. Their minds met, and in that moment of frozen connection the galaxy changed forever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3555952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I grant you its a tricky issue to argue at best but to me the Primarchs, if not Astartes entirely, were just Thunder Warriors 2.0, with the exception of Vulkan and his legion and perhaps the Night Lords and Alpha Legion forces. I'd bet the Emperor believed the crusade would be finished one day, and I also think he would be planning on many of the surviving Primarchs would be dead in battle by then. We need to remember the Emperor is fighting for humanity, and the Astartes aren't strictly human; Dorn is right in that they would never have a place in the finished Imperium, no matter what Guilliman thinks. I have nothing to say towards the villas described in Deliverance Lost, although I do like to think the number 20 was meant for the 19 Primarchs and the Emperor to reside in as one happy, dysfunctional family. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3555956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 The way the Emperor treats the primarchs varies pretty drastically. I could see him truly caring about some of them while seeing the rest as a means to an end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3555957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I think there have been enough to show that, while perhaps used as tools and intended to be little more than tools, the Emperor did experience emotion, especially to his 'sons.' Horus is perhaps the greatest example of which. Which is interesting, as it was with Horus that the Emperor was able to most raise along the lines intended. Rather than revealing his intentions of making of them blunt tools, he revealed the instincts of a father, with all the positive and negative aspects that reveals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3555958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 My feelings are that the Emperor saw Horus and perhaps Magnus (what with the psychic communion while Mags was gestating in his pod) as sons, but his relationship with the others was very different. When Kor Phaeron tells Lorgar "You are my son. Not the Emperor's." He's making a very valid point. Thane Thengir, Konor Guilliman, Luther, Kor Phaeron, Damnekos and the rest...they were the ones who shaped the Primarchs. Not the Emperor. Emps was like a biological parent showing up on a kid's 21st birthday: He may ultimately have a good relationship with the boy, but it won't be the same as the relationship with the man who was there for every one of those 21 years. Look at how the Primarchs who weren't Horus and Magnus treated the Emperor: As pack alpha, liege lord, slavemaster, god to be worshipped...anything and everything but a father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3556061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don the Oiler Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Which, ultimately, is how it's supposed to be, the hierarchy is clear. Sure relationships might have been different if the Primarchs hadn't been scattered by Chaos all over the galaxy, but in the end they were generals expected to carry out orders. A role they all (wondrously) accepted at one point or another. Even those habouring the greatest hatred drove the Crusade forward, fatherly love or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3556305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 And yet by the Primarchs' and the Emperor's own admissions, they were fashioned to be sons as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3556332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 The underground lakefront property might be a big clue to that as well. It is never actually said that they were intended as retirement homes. They could have actually been intended as homes for them to be raised in, to grow to maturity and learn before being introduced. A controlled environment where father-son-brother bonds can be forged. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3556367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Yep. The intent was to create twenty sons fully bonded to his trust and leadership. And as a result, he'd gain twenty generals that he could trust with the future of Mankind. But there two problems. 1.) The Gods of the Warp. 2.) When you get down to it, the Emperor is still human and humans have a tendency of screwing things up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3556409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I'm wondering if Dorn locked away his librarians because he didn't want them to accidentally use their powers when cornered and feel like they have no choice, such as when the dark angels did, thus break the edict. He went for one of the only sure ways to ensure he followed the emperors command. The other being bolter forced retirement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3556872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I agree with spu's last point, why is there doubt about Dorn's actions of locking all the witches up? He has a propensity for taking order and carrying them out to their letter if not their spirit, and it seems to me he did the most compliant thing short of executing them all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Because as far as we can tell, the "letter" was to put the Librarians back into the "normal" rank-and-file of the Legion is not "locking them up". I could be entirely wrong. Now, granted, it is different from the World Eaters who isolated their Librarians and then let them run rampant and the Word Bearers who did something similar in organizing the Chapter of the Void, but it ain't following the letter. It might be the letter as Dorn read it, but it ain't what we know of the letter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I see at as being over careful not to break the rule "My sons, you are to return to your battle companies and never use any of your powers again, not even when play cards." "Ever father?" "Indeed my sons. For my father, your grand father has decreed that you mustn't, when he was telling off your uncle Magnus." "But what if we have to use them?" "Grand pappy has said never use them. Ever." "But what if you or gramps were in danger and our powers were the only thing we could use to save you. We would have to use them. We can't bare the thought of losing you." "Right that is it! Off to your rooms and no dinner until you realise no means no." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Somehow I doubt it was even 0.0000000000001% that romantic..... :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carach Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I grant you its a tricky issue to argue at best but to me the Primarchs, if not Astartes entirely, were just Thunder Warriors 2.0, with the exception of Vulkan and his legion and perhaps the Night Lords and Alpha Legion forces. I'd bet the Emperor believed the crusade would be finished one day, and I also think he would be planning on many of the surviving Primarchs would be dead in battle by then. We need to remember the Emperor is fighting for humanity, and the Astartes aren't strictly human; Dorn is right in that they would never have a place in the finished Imperium, no matter what Guilliman thinks. I have nothing to say towards the villas described in Deliverance Lost, although I do like to think the number 20 was meant for the 19 Primarchs and the Emperor to reside in as one happy, dysfunctional family. you think they wouldnt have a place. None of us know for sure and certainly many of the legions had people capable of doing things beyond the crusade. You see this time and again with many of the primarchs (and their sons) unique traits. architecture, administration so on so forth. The emperor would not have built them to live hundreds/thousands of years if they did not have a greater purpose, imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Personally, I _think_ that given what we know of the Emperor's actions to be regarding the Thunderwarriors at the end of the unifications, I see no reason for his actions to be any different following the end of the Crusade. Now _could_ the primarchs and their respective Astartes play a role benefiting to humanity assuming the Crusade was ever truly finished (ie Sigismund would be wrong) if the Heresy never happened? I think some of them could. Hell, I could even find a use for the Night Haunter. But would the Emperor let the legions steal his _galactic_ victory? As I said, perhaps the three "special" legions he would keep around for a while. But the rest, long term post-crusade? Nah. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I grant you its a tricky issue to argue at best but to me the Primarchs, if not Astartes entirely, were just Thunder Warriors 2.0, with the exception of Vulkan and his legion and perhaps the Night Lords and Alpha Legion forces. I'd bet the Emperor believed the crusade would be finished one day, and I also think he would be planning on many of the surviving Primarchs would be dead in battle by then. We need to remember the Emperor is fighting for humanity, and the Astartes aren't strictly human; Dorn is right in that they would never have a place in the finished Imperium, no matter what Guilliman thinks. I have nothing to say towards the villas described in Deliverance Lost, although I do like to think the number 20 was meant for the 19 Primarchs and the Emperor to reside in as one happy, dysfunctional family. you think they wouldnt have a place. None of us know for sure and certainly many of the legions had people capable of doing things beyond the crusade. You see this time and again with many of the primarchs (and their sons) unique traits. architecture, administration so on so forth. The emperor would not have built them to live hundreds/thousands of years if they did not have a greater purpose, imo. Dorn may claim they wouldn't have a place when the Crusade is over, but then again I disagree with old stoneface on plenty of matters. Off the top of my head I can easily picture Guilliman (he loves himself some administration), Vulcan (dreamed of returning to Nocturne and settling down as a smith), Lorgar (the only primarch who didn't want to be a warrior in the first place), Perturabo (wanted to be an architect) and Magnus (study, metric tons of study) having a place in a peaceful Imperium. The only ones I can't see a place for are Angron, Curze and Mortarion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don the Oiler Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Or he might have send them all beyond the borders of our galaxy and said "Go look for something to fight. I hear a buzzing noise somewhere..." Sigismund was right, and the Emperor knew it too. Just because all *known* threats are battled doesn't mean peace and prosperity forever. Not to mention what's required to keep a giant empire together. I could only imagine he had some sort of Thunder Warriors 3.0 (Astartes 2.0? Custodes 2.1?) in mind, as more of a peace keeping force for when there was nothing new to conquer any more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 If we ever get the narration from the viewpoint of the Emperor, we'll know the intentions for the legions post-Crusade....which was thrown out the window when the primarchs were scattered. However, I propose the following Theorant: The Emp's goals- Reunite/Compliance of humanity across whole galaxy-Imperial Truth, no gods, no veneration-Step two: secure/adapt webway for travel instead of the warp, further reducing exposure/insulation for increasing psyk potential of the species, with final intention to defeat Chaos. Essential: 20 primarchs/sons who he could raise/tutor-train to lead legions, some who are almost mirror images, maybe one of the missing was another Magnus?, which could first of all meet the first stage then once the physical realm was united, half the legions remain in place to keep the peace, other half into the webway, taking it over as well as possible second front against Chaos via immaterial access. Could be he was also aware of necrons rising one day so needed a force for that alarm bell going off Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Emperor who couldnt see his closest sons and confidants slipping away into Chaos? The guy who lets Angron and Kurze run around knowing how stable and loyal they are? Alarm bells?! Playoffs?!?! Necrons?!?! Sometimes I think the guy couldnt see farther into the future past what he wanted to eat for breakfast on the next day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Emperor who couldnt see his closest sons and confidants slipping away into Chaos? The guy who lets Angron and Kurze run around knowing how stable and loyal they are? Alarm bells?! Playoffs?!?! Necrons?!?! Sometimes I think the guy couldnt see farther into the future past what he wanted to eat for breakfast on the next day. This is something I hope Master of Mankind adresses. For a guy who's supposedly the smartest human ever, he sure makes a lot of boneheaded mistakes. Hell, it's practically become a meme at this point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 It was mentioned in Outcast Dead and Angel Exterminatus that the Emperor's foresight was shutting down as the Heresy neared (IIRC, in A Thousand Sons Ahriman says this was happening to all forms of future predicting powers, not just Emp's). The Emperor was never close to Lorgar, and was even more estranged by the time the Urizen decided to worship Chaos, and when Horus fell the Emperor was light years away and up to his elbows in the Webway. As for Curze and Angron..."Nations need butchers as well as shepherds". A lot of the Emperor's so called "stupidity" is not so bad if you accept that he was never all knowing or all benevolent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/283949-breaking-of-the-emperors-decrees/page/6/#findComment-3557782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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