death of the grey hunter?

[Hear da Lamentation]

Hiya,

 

Obviously a bit exaggerated title - but I was interested in starting a debate on this one.

 

I've been playing 6th since it came out - against a few different armies, dark angels, Nids, Chaos and blood angels.  My list migrated from a rhino-grey hunter based one - to a footslogging GH based list with termie wolfguard leading, 2-3 packs of LongFangs, Aegis with quad gun, Thunderwolves and a RP Warlord.  It's been fun and I've been doing OK against those lists.

 

Now ... my Nid/Chaos mate put me up against a Chaos list with 2 HelDrakes this week.  I didn't know what to expect as I hadn't read about them ... and at first I was "OK, another new really hard thing attracting loads of attention.  I'm sure (as is always the case) there will be some decent tactics that can take them out / minimise their effectiveness".  But, at the end of the game (where I saw those things tearing through 5 marines a round each, with no save, no cover save and no way of maneuvering yourself to avoid multi targeting) I was sorely depressed :)

 

Is this the end of Grey Hunters?  What is the point of spending 15points on something that is no better than the pooped spawn of a tervigon  to these things?

 

With all the advent of all this AP 3 and ignore cover weapons .... is the basic power armour marine a dying breed?

 

[Leif-thunderstand]

You are not alone brother.

I mostly use my standard units as predestined gunfood if i fight such foes. That actualy became important part in one of my favorite tactics. First turn i send down my droppod with 10 standard equiped BW (total costs with droppod with deathwind system is 205) in the same moment my scouts arive from anywhere(total costs 80) i usualy give em a wg with. Knowing they'll all gona die next two turns. Now i brought my heavyfire in position and still my oponent cut the last of my sacrifices my longrangefire cuts his lines. Of cause its not yet a victory but now gh will be on range for using boltets before they sacrifice themselves at turn6 or 7.

In that time you even adjustet new positions for your heavyfiresuport and best let your landspeeders arive .... Always use distance to strike whats not in the sense of spacewolves....

Maybe any kind of cybot (but with cyb.cc weapon) drawn from a droppod could give you some cc feeling back.

 

These are dark times to us it seems...

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I absolutely feel your pain wolf brother. I wont go into all the issues I have with our codex... but it does appear all of the units that make us "great" on paper, do not have the same effect on the table top. In this edition.. we really only have 3 great units; Long Fangs, Grey Hunters, and Rune Priests, everything else is overly priced for the effect they have on the table top. I do not feel we have as strong of a codex as some claim we have. I played a game against a friend of mine that was using BA with White Scar bike allies, the obscene amount of Plasma Guns they are able to pack is nasty... and the limited about of Plasma we have access to is depressing at the least. Other than having a blob of troops there's nothing we can do against AP3 and AP2 spam. 

[logun]

hell turkeys give every one the :cusss not just us. the local chaos player would have a terrible time if it wasn't for the heldrake in his army. and they have a new codex.

 

i'm still seeing plenty of hate spread across forums and facebook fansites about how under priced our GH's, RP's, combi gaurd, and LF's are.  we may not have the power builds others have but a lot of armies would love to have our troops.

[Sigvard]

I can understand what you are all saying with this but our Codex still has some truly terrifying options even with the things less commonly used.

For example I discovered the how awesome Blood Claws could truly be.

 

10 Blood Claws with Power Axe and Flamer with a PAWG with Combi-Flamer and Power Sword and a Wolf Priest with Runic Armour, Wolftooth and Combi-Flamer -  Cram all that in a Land Raider Redeemer and you have 593 Points of Awesome that a Helldrake can only dream about hurting.

 

Then you're pretty much assured of turn 2/3 Assault with 4 Attacks from each of the Blood Claws - ( 1 basic + CC Weapons + 2 Berserk Charge) Thats 40 Attacks + 6 from the Wolf Guard and Wolf Priest when you do all the math its churns out some pretty decent numbers -  Obviously you then have 3 Flamers from the Squad on the turn you charge and at least on of the Redeemer Uber Flamers.

 

With a little perseverance you can definitely make anything work in the right place. These guys made a Deathwing Army suck a lot of dirt when they rocked up.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Sigvard, on 01 Dec 2013 - 19:57, said:
I can understand what you are all saying with this but our Codex still has some truly terrifying options even with the things less commonly used.

For example I discovered the how awesome Blood Claws could truly be.

10 Blood Claws with Power Axe and Flamer with a PAWG with Combi-Flamer and Power Sword and a Wolf Priest with Runic Armour, Wolftooth and Combi-Flamer - Cram all that in a Land Raider Redeemer and you have 593 Points of Awesome that a Helldrake can only dream about hurting.

Then you're pretty much assured of turn 2/3 Assault with 4 Attacks from each of the Blood Claws - ( 1 basic + CC Weapons + 2 Berserk Charge) Thats 40 Attacks + 6 from the Wolf Guard and Wolf Priest when you do all the math its churns out some pretty decent numbers - Obviously you then have 3 Flamers from the Squad on the turn you charge and at least on of the Redeemer Uber Flamers.

With a little perseverance you can definitely make anything work in the right place. These guys made a Deathwing Army suck a lot of dirt when they rocked up.

You make good points, however, that is only useful against that one list..

Any other Army may not have the hell chicken of death, but they do have plenty that can take out said Land Raider with ease, and then your force is slogging across the table while getting whittled down. I love land raiders but I never take them anymore because my opponent always got a lucky lance shot that ruined all of my fun. I like to used the Phobos pattern as a back field shooter but 250 pts is too much of an investment.

All I see is our codex has 3 units going for them as the Characters are entirely too over priced for their statlines and that they bring to the fight compared to the Characters and HQ units in every other loyalist Codex. I couldn't believe it when I realized a BA Command Squad to take all Plasma Guns if they wanted to which REALLY matters in this edition, couple that with FNP and you almost don't have to worry about 'gets hot' anymore because odds are you will either make your save or will make your FNP..

I dunno man, I just see a lot of looks good on paper looks good in hammer theory and sucks in hammer applications. It is not hard to deal with Rune Priests, Grey Hunters and LFs. You can preach all you want, the merits of the SW Codex in theory, can't see I've actually seen it work in application.

Sorry for the rant, back on topic. I personally don't think GHs have that much going for them. If they get into CC they are pretty stout, as far as shooting they are just MEQ and there is nothing about them that sets them apart. Counter Attack can be nice and again, in theory shooting a unit with everything you got and getting them to charge is ideal, most players know how we work and will gladly shoot us down so charging isn't necessary. Are there other advantages I am missing out on?

I know it sounds like I hate on SWs, but I really don't.. I love our Chapter and our fluff.. I am just very critical of them and I don't mind being critical at all. Maybe it is because I have never played 5th ed and don't know what our dex functions like in the environment it was made for, or maybe it's because I haven't found a list that really just works for me.. what I do see, and have seen from the first game against nids is that our codex has a lot of competitive issues that other Codices don't have. Even in comparison to loyalist Chapters, you read some of them and you ask yourself why so much wasn't included within the Space Wolves codex that are not contrary to fluff. There are just too many units in the Space Wolves codex that need updating because of how lack luster they are on the gaming table.

In the Space Wolves defense, I have terrible dice and will never buy GW dice again. If I buy new dice and play a few games with completely different results I may need to write an apology thread to everyone I have offended by my rants against our Codex.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

For now, Tactical Power Armor is dead. I've been saying this since the 6th dropped, and I'm glad to see that people are finally catching on.

 

A worthwhile unit should be: Survivable, Deadly, Cheap - pick any two. A PA marine is no longer survivable due to proliferation of various AP2, AP3 and cover-denying shenanigans. A PA marine is not deadly, at least comparatively - 18-20 S4 AP5 12'' shots are less than impressive in this day and age when cheaper units can surpass this with either superior range or strength, or sheer weight of fire. And to add insult to injury, a PA marine is decidedly not cheap - other armies can field many more bodies for the same price to absorb incoming fire and keep on fighting.

 

"But wait, there's more!" Prior to the introduction of challenges, a hidden powerfist made a Tactical or GH squad a viable threat to various Big Bads. Even if the marines went down in a blaze of glory, there was a chance that the hidden PF would drag down the more expensive opponent. This is no longer possible - a hidden PF gets challenged and killed by a higher-I character who then proceeds to tear apart both the PF wielder and the unit he's in.

 

All that considered, the Grey Hunter is still a notch above the garbage pile that is a Tactical Marine, due to the ability to bring two special weapons, and a hidden Power Weapon or Power Fist (though the latter is admittedly awful). GH also fare a bit better in the assault scenarios due to being able to supplement overwatch with countercharge, and acute senses don't hurt either. This offers a very weak mitigation to the not-so-deadly problem, but does nothing to alleviate being overcosted and overfragile for what GH can do.

 

A drop pod spam with GH may work or it may not, you are almost 100% dependent on your luck and your skill comes a distant second. All other builds are hopelessly outclassed by the 6th Edition's darlings.

 

If after reading the above, you feel an urge to punch someone, I recommend that you direct your ire at GW. They made a brilliant double play that on one hand entices the newcomers to buy into previously undersold armies, and on the other forces the old grognards with 6-10 tactical squads to buy units they previously did not want to buy (bikes, assorted xenos and other gimmicks du jour that are conveniently priced to rip your wallet a new one). Make no mistake: GW is laughing all the way to the bank, and we might have to wait not for just one, but two editions (I'm talking 10 or more years) before the worm turns and PA becomes viable and competitive once more. That is, if GW is still around by then, of course.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

For now, Tactical Power Armor is dead. I've been saying this since the 6th dropped, and I'm glad to see that people are finally catching on.

 

A worthwhile unit should be: Survivable, Deadly, Cheap - pick any two. A PA marine is no longer survivable due to proliferation of various AP2, AP3 and cover-denying shenanigans. A PA marine is not deadly, at least comparatively - 18-20 S4 AP5 12'' shots are less than impressive in this day and age when cheaper units can surpass this with either superior range or strength, or sheer weight of fire. And to add insult to injury, a PA marine is decidedly not cheap - other armies can field many more bodies for the same price to absorb incoming fire and keep on fighting.

 

"But wait, there's more!" Prior to the introduction of challenges, a hidden powerfist made a Tactical or GH squad a viable threat to various Big Bads. Even if the marines went down in a blaze of glory, there was a chance that the hidden PF would drag down the more expensive opponent. This is no longer possible - a hidden PF gets challenged and killed by a higher-I character who then proceeds to tear apart both the PF wielder and the unit he's in.

 

All that considered, the Grey Hunter is still a notch above the garbage pile that is a Tactical Marine, due to the ability to bring two special weapons, and a hidden Power Weapon or Power Fist (though the latter is admittedly awful). GH also fare a bit better in the assault scenarios due to being able to supplement overwatch with countercharge, and acute senses don't hurt either. This offers a very weak mitigation to the not-so-deadly problem, but does nothing to alleviate being overcosted and overfragile for what GH can do.

 

A drop pod spam with GH may work or it may not, you are almost 100% dependent on your luck and your skill comes a distant second. All other builds are hopelessly outclassed by the 6th Edition's darlings.

 

If after reading the above, you feel an urge to punch someone, I recommend that you direct your ire at GW. They made a brilliant double play that on one hand entices the newcomers to buy into previously undersold armies, and on the other forces the old grognards with 6-10 tactical squads to buy units they previously did not want to buy (bikes, assorted xenos and other gimmicks du jour that are conveniently priced to rip your wallet a new one). Make no mistake: GW is laughing all the way to the bank, and we might have to wait not for just one, but two editions (I'm talking 10 or more years) before the worm turns and PA becomes viable and competitive once more. That is, if GW is still around by then, of course.

Can Vanilla Marines not take the extra weapon and an upgraded CC weapon? I know BAs can and figured the Vanilla Marines as well as others can do the same.

 

Everything else I completely agree with, and unfortunately our "heroes" that our Army is based around suffer the same fate. They get challenged out and destroyed with relative ease. Although you may have to double check, I do not believe challenges can be issued or accepted by non characters. 

 

I would go a step further above the PA and go on to TDA as well though, Those "blod" Armies know good and well you will roll a one eventually and then your uber pricey TDA is done. After my last game I am planning on completely eliminating my TDAWGs from all lists because they die too easily and are too expensive to fall as quickly as they do. The lack of Deep Strike without a 35 pt price tag is also something that IMO makes the TDAWGs not worth their points for what they do. 

 

If I can add one more on topic rant, I question whether or not Standards are worth the points for what they do. Once again, Theory-Hammer says a TDAWG leading a Unit of Grey Hunters who use Standard in CC is far superior.. being able to reroll all ones is nice, however... only used once a game? And only in the Assault phase? I have plenty of GH units who have a standard and get shot to nothing before they have the chance to get anywhere near CC and now their MoTW and Standard are 25 wasted points. 

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Vanilla Marines haven't been able to take 2 specials or have 2 attacks in CC since the 5th Edition SM codex, where traits were removed. Before, you could have Cleanse and Purify and Trust your Battle Brothers traits, which gave you a second Special instead of a Heavy weapon, and True Grit, which gives you 2 attacks all the time (charging or not).

 

Blood Angels can't take an extra CC either. They can have a non-jumping assault squad with 2 Special Weapons, but then they don't have bolters, which limits their shooting to 6''.

 

And as far as "easily destroyed heroes". Behold Chapter Master Dante, and weep. Once a CC monster without peer, he now attacks at I1 because his Axe Mortalis is indeed an axe... as FAQ'd by ever-helpful GW.

 

Poor, poor Mr. Dante.

[Thornoo1]

If you want to remain a foot slogging army try this.

 

Terminators - one IC and one WG in every unit that foot slogs.  Place them up the front to tank the AP3 shots, then use L,oS! onto the WG once your IC starts to lose wounds.

[Leif-thunderstand]

May this is how space wolves where meant to be played in 6th edition.

[Sigvard]

I think to say Tactical Power Armour s dead is a gross overstatement. Whilst I appreciate the amount of AP2 weaponry that.Can he fielded there is only 1 Army that can reliably ignore cover which is Tau Empire and the other is the Helldrake however there is remedy for both these things are dealt with easily if you set your mind to it. Long Fangs with Missile Launchers and divination (which the Vanilla Marines only get using Tigurius i might add also who has no saves other than 3+ Armour) you then out these guys on an Aegis that is an incredibly dead birdy. Also there is a new fortification supplement being released next week so there are even more options on the horizon.

 

As for Tau Drop Pods with Flamer Grey Hunter makes a mess of their reliable ignores cover by eliminating markers lights. Without those Tau simply become B4 softies. However they will remain very good at popping Land Raiders which there is little to be done about.

 

I understand that we don't have the big shiny new toys but we have a great and very viable Codex that has some superb units that are very enjoyable to play

[DanPesci]

 

I would go a step further above the PA and go on to TDA as well though, Those "blod" Armies know good and well you will roll a one eventually and then your uber pricey TDA is done. After my last game I am planning on completely eliminating my TDAWGs from all lists because they die too easily and are too expensive to fall as quickly as they do. The lack of Deep Strike without a 35 pt price tag is also something that IMO makes the TDAWGs not worth their points for what they do. 

 

 

 

my housemate plays deathwing, and would LOVE to have the drop pod option we do. 

35 points extra:

- you get something that provides you with a cover save from certain directions, which you can also use to effectively seal off certain routes around the board.

- you get an av12 blob that probably needs killing at some point, 

- if you scatter onto an enemy unit/terrain you simply move the pod to a point not on that unit/terrain

- you can move your unit 6" out of it the turn they arrive, setting them up how you like, and seperating the models to protect from blast

- you get to bring in half your pod units first turn, which unless you have deathwing assualt, you cant do with normal deepstriking.

 

compare that to normal deep striking.

- if you scatter onto terrain/enemy units, you may well end up dead, or hugley delayed

- unless deathwing assaulting, you may not arrive until turn 4

- when you do arrive, you cant move anywhere from where you end up

- furthermore, your whole squad has to stand in one tight blob, so gets torn to pieces by blast weapons.

 

seriously, the amount of times ive taken out whole squads of deathwing with 1-2 well placed plasma cannon shots the turn after they arrive is brilliant.

The only way to combat this is to pay for storm shields, which are pretty much getting as expensive as the drop pod once youve bought 1-2

Even landing 5 frag missles on a squad is effective, as your usually scoring 5-7 hits with each blast cos the models are so tightly packed.

 

 

Aye, having 5 TDAWG with combiweapons in a pod, they are going to arrive, and probably be dead by the next turn, but they SHOULD have done what they needed (either melta or plasma a desired target out of existence), and then used up a large portion of the opponents firepower to get rid of (as the last thing they wnat is 5 power weapon toting terminators running around their deployment zone), which isn't being directed at your scoring units.

[DanPesci]

I think to say Tactical Power Armour s dead is a gross overstatement. Whilst I appreciate the amount of AP2 weaponry that.Can he fielded there is only 1 Army that can reliably ignore cover which is Tau Empire and the other is the Helldrake however there is remedy for both these things are dealt with easily if you set your mind to it. Long Fangs with Missile Launchers and divination (which the Vanilla Marines only get using Tigurius i might add also who has no saves other than 3+ Armour) you then out these guys on an Aegis that is an incredibly dead birdy. Also there is a new fortification supplement being released next week so there are even more options on the horizon.

 

As for Tau Drop Pods with Flamer Grey Hunter makes a mess of their reliable ignores cover by eliminating markers lights. Without those Tau simply become B4 softies. However they will remain very good at popping Land Raiders which there is little to be done about.

 

I understand that we don't have the big shiny new toys but we have a great and very viable Codex that has some superb units that are very enjoyable to play

 

This

[Hear da Lamentation]

I do agree it is an overstatement - and as I said - I intended it to start some debate.

 

BUT - I DO play with large footslogging GH packs lead by a TDA Wolf Guard.  And up until now I loved it.  But that type of unit has NO benefit to the Heldrake, who can easily avoid the WGTDA and keep on wiping your GH off the board.

 

I can't see an option other than termies at the moment.

 

I just want to make clear - I am not saying our codex isn't still good (I love it) - but the way things are changing in 6th - I just cannot see how power armour is worth it anymore.

 

I would love someone to convince me differently though.

 

H.D.L.

[Hear da Lamentation]

And the Aegis - with RP and divination?  I had this already when I faced the heldrakes.

4 twin linked Str 7 shots.  If you hit with all of them (decent chance) you have an average of just over 1 glance/pen.  OK you might be lucky.  But he has 5+ invulnerable - oh yes - and a 1/3 chance of regaining a hull point every round !

5 longfangs with ML and divination re-rolls.  2 hits max (and that is generous).  1 pen/glance (again generous).

 

This is not exactly a way of taking these things out.  But it is the ONLY way we have.  And as soon as those Heldrakes get anywhere near those longfangs - 4-5 wiped out without any chance of redemption.

 

H.D.L.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

I would go a step further above the PA and go on to TDA as well though, Those "blod" Armies know good and well you will roll a one eventually and then your uber pricey TDA is done. After my last game I am planning on completely eliminating my TDAWGs from all lists because they die too easily and are too expensive to fall as quickly as they do. The lack of Deep Strike without a 35 pt price tag is also something that IMO makes the TDAWGs not worth their points for what they do. 

 

 

 

my housemate plays deathwing, and would LOVE to have the drop pod option we do. 

35 points extra:

- you get something that provides you with a cover save from certain directions, which you can also use to effectively seal off certain routes around the board.

- you get an av12 blob that probably needs killing at some point, 

- if you scatter onto an enemy unit/terrain you simply move the pod to a point not on that unit/terrain

- you can move your unit 6" out of it the turn they arrive, setting them up how you like, and seperating the models to protect from blast

- you get to bring in half your pod units first turn, which unless you have deathwing assualt, you cant do with normal deepstriking.

 

compare that to normal deep striking.

- if you scatter onto terrain/enemy units, you may well end up dead, or hugley delayed

- unless deathwing assaulting, you may not arrive until turn 4

- when you do arrive, you cant move anywhere from where you end up

- furthermore, your whole squad has to stand in one tight blob, so gets torn to pieces by blast weapons.

 

seriously, the amount of times ive taken out whole squads of deathwing with 1-2 well placed plasma cannon shots the turn after they arrive is brilliant.

The only way to combat this is to pay for storm shields, which are pretty much getting as expensive as the drop pod once youve bought 1-2

Even landing 5 frag missles on a squad is effective, as your usually scoring 5-7 hits with each blast cos the models are so tightly packed.

 

 

Aye, having 5 TDAWG with combiweapons in a pod, they are going to arrive, and probably be dead by the next turn, but they SHOULD have done what they needed (either melta or plasma a desired target out of existence), and then used up a large portion of the opponents firepower to get rid of (as the last thing they wnat is 5 power weapon toting terminators running around their deployment zone), which isn't being directed at your scoring units.

Regardless, TDA dies too easily for the point cost and I would prefer to take an extra troop slot or even a shooty dreadnought or 2 in a drop pod for forward deployed fire support than I would a Pod of TDAWG.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Vanilla Marines haven't been able to take 2 specials or have 2 attacks in CC since the 5th Edition SM codex, where traits were removed. Before, you could have Cleanse and Purify and Trust your Battle Brothers traits, which gave you a second Special instead of a Heavy weapon, and True Grit, which gives you 2 attacks all the time (charging or not).

 

Blood Angels can't take an extra CC either. They can have a non-jumping assault squad with 2 Special Weapons, but then they don't have bolters, which limits their shooting to 6''.

 

And as far as "easily destroyed heroes". Behold Chapter Master Dante, and weep. Once a CC monster without peer, he now attacks at I1 because his Axe Mortalis is indeed an axe... as FAQ'd by ever-helpful GW.

 

Poor, poor Mr. Dante.

I'd second check that on the Blood Angels Dex, I rechecked mine and either over looked the portion where it states they cannot have jump packs and may then take another special weapon or you are quoting it wrong. At any rate, would a Heavy weapon and a Special weapon in a 10 man squad not be better than have 2 special weapons? 

 

Back to the OP, I think all of these responses are confirming the fact that GHs and PAs in general are "toned down." Don't know if the GH has been killed, but he most certainly has a harder battle to fight than before. 

 

I really wish people wouldn't bring up the Hell Chicken, only because that seems to be all that is focused on in the responses there after. Tau and Helldrakes my not be fun for marines.. cover saves or not due to lots of AP2 and AP3 in this edition PAs do have a hard time. Unless you're getting a 3 up cover save everytime.. cover isn't what I would come back with. I do, as I've stated, find our lack of AP2 and AP3 shooty kind of annoying. Yes we have the CC weapons, but I think we can all agree on the fact the CC is pretty dead in this edition. 

[DanPesci]

a dreadnought in a drop pod will die faster than 5 TDA. Gets out, all the opponent needs do is manouver onto its side/rear armour and can glance it to death in 1 turn no problem.

 

which is a shame as i love the idea of dreads in pods, and i take them quite a bit (usually p.cannon/h.flamer/CCW) but from my experience they make their points back even less than TDAWG unit. Unless by shooty dreads are you meaning riflemen? Surely they are better in your backfield where you can at least hope to force front shooting

[DanPesci]

 

Vanilla Marines haven't been able to take 2 specials or have 2 attacks in CC since the 5th Edition SM codex, where traits were removed. Before, you could have Cleanse and Purify and Trust your Battle Brothers traits, which gave you a second Special instead of a Heavy weapon, and True Grit, which gives you 2 attacks all the time (charging or not).

 

Blood Angels can't take an extra CC either. They can have a non-jumping assault squad with 2 Special Weapons, but then they don't have bolters, which limits their shooting to 6''.

 

And as far as "easily destroyed heroes". Behold Chapter Master Dante, and weep. Once a CC monster without peer, he now attacks at I1 because his Axe Mortalis is indeed an axe... as FAQ'd by ever-helpful GW.

 

Poor, poor Mr. Dante.

 

 

I really wish people wouldn't bring up the Hell Chicken, only because that seems to be all that is focused on in the responses there after. 

 

 

good call. I seem to see endless posts at the moment which are just 'hell turkey killed me, again, argghh, our codex is crap'. The hell turkey is a widely discussed broke as :cuss unit, which is the ONLY go to unit in a very average dex for chaos players. Of course it causes problems. But this doesnt mean our codex is weak, just that that unit is stupidly overpowered for what it does, which is annihilate power armour (which unfortunately were stuck with).

[Mammon]

Agree with DanPesci, the Drake is the crutch of the Chaos Codex and the only unit making them competitive in 6th Ed. Otherwise, they are in the same boat as us when it comes to dealing with Tau gunnery. I am more often worried by the gross (as in ridiculous!) volume of shots I endure from the Tau and Eldar or the mass of enemies I encounter when fighting a Green Tide. The more roles you take the more probability screws you over. 

 

 Flyers of any kind are a foe we cannot reliably deal with so I seldom focus on them, can't really afford to devote my Long Fangs, Raiders and Razors to trying to drop one thing with Snap Shots when I can ruin everyone else's day with Rockets and Godhammers!

[the jeske]

Use ally . Run armies that ignore helldrakes or are very good against them . If helldrakes/cover ignoring is the only problem SW have , then it is no problem.

 

Take a blob of IG with a comissar and take an Inq as your warlord . put the whole thing on a landing pad good at camping. If your friends are ok with FW , take 6-9 saber weapon platforms .run your GH in pods , the way marines run their sternguard . Take the tau formation you don't even have to use up an ally slot for , to get a Riptide and 2 broadside and make them do you anti air , if you can't run FW.

 

Seems like this is the case of SW players trying to play 5th ed armies in 6th ed.

[Valerian]

 Yes we have the CC weapons, but I think we can all agree on the fact the CC is pretty dead in this edition. 

 

Actually I'm going to disagree with this assessment, that close combat is dead in this edition.  What, exactly makes it dead?  Overwatch?  Overwatch by itself isn't nearly enough to "kill" close combat. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

Yes we have the CC weapons, but I think we can all agree on the fact the CC is pretty dead in this edition.

Actually I'm going to disagree with this assessment, that close combat is dead in this edition. What, exactly makes it dead? Overwatch? Overwatch by itself isn't nearly enough to "kill" close combat.

No, I wouldn't say that overwatch has killed CC, I was more relating it to the fact that all of the CC Deathstars and other CC units are so easily shot to death before they ever make it into CC. That in my experience so far is what happens the most in this edition. There is a unit that is hardcore in CC with lots of wound? Give said unit lots of dakka. I personally don't think overwatch is that bad, but I think challenges, shooting becoming more prevalent, changes to charging in (which overwatch does have an impact on.. no denying that) coupled together with things I am sure I'm forgetting about has killed CC. If not.. than there are only certain units that excel in CC. Power weapons taking the hit that they did is also part of the equation.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

a dreadnought in a drop pod will die faster than 5 TDA. Gets out, all the opponent needs do is manouver onto its side/rear armour and can glance it to death in 1 turn no problem.

 

which is a shame as i love the idea of dreads in pods, and i take them quite a bit (usually p.cannon/h.flamer/CCW) but from my experience they make their points back even less than TDAWG unit. Unless by shooty dreads are you meaning riflemen? Surely they are better in your backfield where you can at least hope to force front shooting

Which is why you don't drop the dread by itself... Because if you do maneuver around on to my side/rear armor and glance it to death in turn one "no problem" you have just exposed yourself to two fully kitted out units of GHs and their Rune Priests and another drop pod that are going to ruin that units day, if they haven't already done so the turn they arrived. Rule still applies though, at any rate, if they are shooting at "X" unit, they aren't shooting at your troops. Those Dreads are going to put out more of hurtin than I believe 5 TDAWG would on the turn they arrive. 

 

I think people need to get over the mindset of "oh no it's gonna die" and realize... it's gonna die and try and make the best of it before it does.

 

I know that a Dread not is probably not going to go down from a hailstorm of bolter fire... It could get glanced to death, highly unlikely. I KNOW that TDA can.. and in my intimate experience WILL, DIE, from a hailstorm of bolter fire. Thanks to the dice gods this happens at the most inopportune timing. What is going to give your opponent the hardest time in target priority is huge in 6th edition. IMO unless they get into CC.. TDA is no longer a big deal, you will role some ones and unless it's a blob of 10 TDA or more (which was harder to deal with) I do not believe TDA is a very big deal. And by shooty dreads I mean one P.C./H.F. and one A.C./M.L. 

 

I can't knock your experience, but nothing has gotten wiped out faster for me in 6th than a unit of TDAWG before they have any effect... from bolter fire in particular. I have much more faith in at least one dread surviving a round of shooting and being able to use said dreads on the next turn than I do a unit of TDAWG.