death of the grey hunter?

[Russ Brother 92]

 

 

 

 

Yes we have the CC weapons, but I think we can all agree on the fact the CC is pretty dead in this edition.

Actually I'm going to disagree with this assessment, that close combat is dead in this edition. What, exactly makes it dead? Overwatch? Overwatch by itself isn't nearly enough to "kill" close combat.

No, I wouldn't say that overwatch has killed CC, I was more relating it to the fact that all of the CC Deathstars and other CC units are so easily shot to death before they ever make it into CC. That in my experience so far is what happens the most in this edition. There is a unit that is hardcore in CC with lots of wound? Give said unit lots of dakka. I personally don't think overwatch is that bad, but I think challenges, shooting becoming more prevalent, changes to charging in (which overwatch does have an impact on.. no denying that) coupled together with things I am sure I'm forgetting about has killed CC. If not.. than there are only certain units that excel in CC. Power weapons taking the hit that they did is also part of the equation.

Yes in theory your 'Uber CC unit' will get torn to shreds by enemy fire, BUT that is where tactics and playing the game (rather than playing a set-piece battle) comes in - look at it this way (and Valerian will know exactly what I mean by this), if the British Army of 2013 was still using the same 'rules of engagement' as they did in 1913 (say for the First World War) we'd be attempting to dig trenches, have cavalry charges and base tactics on the enemy doing exactly as we do - however as we (the British Army) found out in Korea and our cousins (the US Army) found out in Vietnam, the enemy doesn't follow conventional rules of conflict - if you're facing an enemy with superior firepower (such as Tau Empire) then deprive them of their key advantage (Range) and you shall deprive them of victory - equally if your enemy rushes towards you in a great horde (Orks/Tyranids) then deprive them of the space/cover required to utilise this (funnel them towards your CC-Orientated units and away from your weaker ranged units) and lastly if your enemy uses a small, elite force (Deathwing, GK Paladins etc.) then you use those self same tactics your previous foes (mass firepower and horde tactics) to deprive him of the speed and manoeuvrability he requires to make such a force work.

 

TL;DR - use tactics against your enemy, don't rely on one unit to ALWAYS work, have a back-up installed somewhere and make sure that your units can cover at least 2 roles successfully (Valerian actually has a very good thread about this which I hope he'll link).

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

 

 

 

Yes we have the CC weapons, but I think we can all agree on the fact the CC is pretty dead in this edition.

Actually I'm going to disagree with this assessment, that close combat is dead in this edition. What, exactly makes it dead? Overwatch? Overwatch by itself isn't nearly enough to "kill" close combat.

No, I wouldn't say that overwatch has killed CC, I was more relating it to the fact that all of the CC Deathstars and other CC units are so easily shot to death before they ever make it into CC. That in my experience so far is what happens the most in this edition. There is a unit that is hardcore in CC with lots of wound? Give said unit lots of dakka. I personally don't think overwatch is that bad, but I think challenges, shooting becoming more prevalent, changes to charging in (which overwatch does have an impact on.. no denying that) coupled together with things I am sure I'm forgetting about has killed CC. If not.. than there are only certain units that excel in CC. Power weapons taking the hit that they did is also part of the equation.

Yes in theory your 'Uber CC unit' will get torn to shreds by enemy fire, BUT that is where tactics and playing the game (rather than playing a set-piece battle) comes in - look at it this way (and Valerian will know exactly what I mean by this), if the British Army of 2013 was still using the same 'rules of engagement' as they did in 1913 (say for the First World War) we'd be attempting to dig trenches, have cavalry charges and base tactics on the enemy doing exactly as we do - however as we (the British Army) found out in Korea and our cousins (the US Army) found out in Vietnam, the enemy doesn't follow conventional rules of conflict - if you're facing an enemy with superior firepower (such as Tau Empire) then deprive them of their key advantage (Range) and you shall deprive them of victory - equally if your enemy rushes towards you in a great horde (Orks/Tyranids) then deprive them of the space/cover required to utilise this (funnel them towards your CC-Orientated units and away from your weaker ranged units) and lastly if your enemy uses a small, elite force (Deathwing, GK Paladins etc.) then you use those self same tactics your previous foes (mass firepower and horde tactics) to deprive him of the speed and manoeuvrability he requires to make such a force work.

 

TL;DR - use tactics against your enemy, don't rely on one unit to ALWAYS work, have a back-up installed somewhere and make sure that your units can cover at least 2 roles successfully (Valerian actually has a very good thread about this which I hope he'll link).

I see the example you tried to make, terrible analogy. At any rate, I've noticed this thread is kind of starting to get hijacked and off topic. 

[DanPesci]

 

a dreadnought in a drop pod will die faster than 5 TDA. Gets out, all the opponent needs do is manouver onto its side/rear armour and can glance it to death in 1 turn no problem.

 

which is a shame as i love the idea of dreads in pods, and i take them quite a bit (usually p.cannon/h.flamer/CCW) but from my experience they make their points back even less than TDAWG unit. Unless by shooty dreads are you meaning riflemen? Surely they are better in your backfield where you can at least hope to force front shooting

Which is why you don't drop the dread by itself... Because if you do maneuver around on to my side/rear armor and glance it to death in turn one "no problem" you have just exposed yourself to two fully kitted out units of GHs and their Rune Priests and another drop pod that are going to ruin that units day, if they haven't already done so the turn they arrived. Rule still applies though, at any rate, if they are shooting at "X" unit, they aren't shooting at your troops. Those Dreads are going to put out more of hurtin than I believe 5 TDAWG would on the turn they arrive. 

 

I think people need to get over the mindset of "oh no it's gonna die" and realize... it's gonna die and try and make the best of it before it does.

 

i think weve got somewhere confused along the way here. you were complaining that your TDAWG die too easy, but then say we need to get over the fears of things dying too easy??

Also i wasnt suggesting that you drop a dread by itself, i dont think you should drop pod anything by itself at the moment, jsut way too easy to pick off (i think SW need at least 5 drop pods in a DP list to be effective).

 

 

I can't knock your experience, but nothing has gotten wiped out faster for me in 6th than a unit of TDAWG before they have any effect... 

 

before theyve had any effect at all?? So theyre not landing, and unleashing a torrent of plasma/melta when they do?? Also, if as you say, they are landing along with two squads of grey hunters, then they are then taking a lot of fire off those scoring units (who can then charge in the next turn). 

 

 

 

anywhoo...this thread was about grey hunters. Are they still good?? HELLS YEAH! They are still one of the best all-rounder troops choices in the game still. If you disagree (not aimed at you specifically here prey to grey!), please feel free to go on the other chapter forums, state that grey hunters arent any good, and await the torrent of abuse you'll get. Look at what chaos marines get for the same points (or ask jeske....haha). 

 

15 points base - power armour, CCW and bolt pistol and bolter, counter attack, and acute sense (which now couples brilliantly with outflank tactics)

Then, at GOOD cost, 2 special weapons, a banner that can completely turn the tide of combat, which we can take on EVERY squad,  a 15 point upgrade that can add 8 rending attacks from one guy, and the option to take hidden power weapons.

 

Sure, i get what people are saying about the overall effectiveness of power armour now possibly not being what it was, due to the amount of ap3 firepower. But there are ways round this, drop pods, the ol' rhino rush can still ahve effect to close the lines, try taking 2 landraiders to the party..as russ brother says, you cant just stick to the same unit setup/tactics and expect it to work every time...what you are doing needs fresh tactics if you expect to win against fresh enemies.

 

The strength of grey hunters is their versatility. They are not the best shooting unit in the game, they are not the best CC unit, they are not the best at soaking up endless wounds. But then they arent BAD at any of these things either, and are flexible enough to form several tactical approaches round. (So much so, bloodclaws dont even get a look in and may has well not have been included in the codex haha)

[Bloody Legionnaire]

That's exactly what I mean by theory-hammer though. I would say GH have potential to be the best troop choice in the game for what they have; and can bring to the fight on paper. They are a very good deal. However, I cannot tell you the last time I head the pleasure of using GHs to the fullest of their potential. GHs will get shot at and lose a good portion of their pack before they charge or are charged and enter CC. CC, is what the the majority of the space hunters "specialties" are geared for... With the exception of the 2nd special weapon. At shooting they are just as baseline as any other marine troop, and everyone in the game knows that which is why they don't charge us unless they know they have AP3 and high initiative, and will do so after thinning out the unit. If we're going against a unit that has a special rule and must forego their shooting and charge.. Them we absolutely have a great advantage, if not.....

 

So yes, GH still have everything that makes them the cool guys still, however, conutinusing to say they are THE BEST, when they often will not be able to utilize what makes them best I feel takes a huge toll on them overall. You may say... Well it's the same for all other SM infantry, and I would reply, exactly. So, in closing, unless they are at full force and in CC, they are just the same as the "other" guys.

[d@n]

things have moved on. when the space wolves codex, was first released there was nothing like, grav guns, hell turkeys, knight class units, fliers ect but the game evolves and escalates and the space wolves codex has suffered due to not having access to similarly powerful units and being over coasted. despite all that we are still an army to be feared, which goes to show just how well written the codex is.

[DanPesci]

things have moved on. when the space wolves codex, was first released there was nothing like, grav guns, hell turkeys, knight class units, fliers ect but the game evolves and escalates and the space wolves codex has suffered due to not having access to similarly powerful units and being over coasted. despite all that we are still an army to be feared, which goes to show just how well written the codex is.

 

aye, at least were getting some sort of update in the spring too, think how templar players felt for nearly 10 years with no update!

 

 

 conutinusing to say they are THE BEST,

 

 

aye but noone is saying they are the outright best. In 5th, they probably were, but they are sitll a very strong, tactically felxible troop choice, ONE OF the best in the current game. Its just that other armies now have other non-troop units (elites, heavies, flyers) that can cause us serious problems, but nothing that should casue people to be putting up the 'grey hunters are now dead/useless' that i seem to have seen very often in the last couple of months.

 

In the recent games ive played against my flatmates chaos (deathguard), dark angel, or C:SM armies, ive won probably around 50% of the games. That is using a 5th edition codex against 6th editions. Back in 5th i think i lost 1 game to him in a period of 12 months whilst using my wolves. We can still win, its just a lot tougher for us to do so - and with us probably being one of the most overpowered spam armies in 5th...its probably high time we had a bit more of a challenge!

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Absolutely agree with the above post. However, more on this forum should accept our complaints as response to this codex in this environment, and should admit we have certain struggles using our dex in a new environment it wasn't built for, instead of treating it like they do. There are some that almost have a demeanor of our codex lacking nothing in the new environment. I understand some really like the codex and a skeptical about what change could bring, and while the codex is not broken, there are some things about how SWs play in 6e that quite a few people finding frustrating. Most would say others have it way worse in attempt to water down the issue and complaint, it doesn't really matter if whatever dex has it better or worse as I don't play them... I am only concerned about what dex I play.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Just for the record, I didn't mean that BA can take a second special weapon by giving up JPs. An assault squad can take 2 special weapons, then you can strip them of JPs and stick them into a Rhino, and you have a pseudo-tactical squad with 2 special weapons (and 2 CCWs for all intents and purposes), but without bolters. That's all I meant.

 

As far as "one heavy, one special" being better than two specials, this limits your firepower on the move. Now, if PA became relentless somehow...

 

The Tau Formation thing is just plain weird. I had no idea it existed. GW is really pulling all the stops out. "Hey kids, want to include tau in your army but don't feel like using up a FOC slot? Pay four bucks and buy the models, and shove them in without regard to allied detachment rules."

 

Anyway, I digress.

[d@n]

In grey hunter blood Claw  packs ect , Wolf guard should be an upgrade like a vet Sargeant but with access to all the same wargear. So you could fit a combi weapons and 2 specials in a Drop pod. Maybe that would of been broken when the dex was written, but it's not nowadays. Plus it would free up elite slots and allow wolf guard packs to take things like banners and special weapons without having people putting them in other packs and making broken units. 

[Hear da Lamentation]

Great posts guys, it's a really interesting thread.

 

I agree is some ways with dan Pesci ... we did have it good before ... maybe it is time we struggled.

 

Also maybe the answer isn't no grey hunters, it's more grey hunters :). 50+ is not going to be as worried about hell chickens etc.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

"We had it good before, it's time we had it bad" is silly MMORPG logic. "Hey Bob, ur class pwned face forlikeever, hope u get nerfed next patch, nublet!" Of course, perfect balance is impossible and there will always be "stars" and "dogs" in any gaming system, but purposefully taking a "star" and turning it into a "dog" only makes sense if you are making money off this transformation.

 

At the end of the day, an army based primarily around tactical marines or grey hunters is no longer viable. You absopositely NEED to resort to shenanigans to win in any kind of a competitive scenario, and the said shenanigans are decidedly vomit-inducing. Because suddenly, your xeno-annihilating, lightning-strike force needs to bring along Tau to do the shooting and stash a fortress in its back pocket for protection from things that tear through PA like paper.

 

If I were to use the 1913's British Army analogy, I would say that we are 1913's British Army executing cavalry charges against modern-day MBTs and valiantly firing volleys from our bolt-action rifles while our enemies tool around in body armor armed with assault rifles. Sure, clever tactics can win the day every now and again, luck be a lady tonight and all that. But in most cases we are outclassed until we ask our former enemies for assault rifles/MBTs/body armor. Look at the majority of PA batreps floating around the interwebz: it's mostly either "welp, it was a good game and I ALMOST won" or "welp, the power armor did well sitting on the objectives, but allies carried the day."

[Karack Blackstone]

As an MMO player, I concur with Olgerth.  The problem is, in my mind, conveying the issues we each have and forming a cohesive voice that sounds cogent and can be understood in the current meta, also known as, 6th edition.

 

From my experience, the single largest goof up on GW's part was how they treated flyers upon release: the Wright Brothers did not just fly, Flyers have been around in setting for over 10,000 years.  Flakk Missile Long Fangs would have not only made sense, there is at least one compelling argument I think I can make about this subject.  The overall issue to me is, if everyone, all armies, had been FAQ'ed Flakk in response to the new editions as if the kit options were always there, then we'd be so much better off.  It's so bad for some, there was one group in a store I played at that let SW's take Flakk at DA points costs so they could play and not get reduced to rubble.

 

As far as GH's go, my above stems from the problem itself overall, I'd say: it's not the death of GH's, it's the death and dearth of PA models in general that needs to be dealt with.  The "fun" of Apoc is things dying on the field, to most.  I must ask, how?  To try to tone down my own post, I can only guess that people think portable microwave guns that can punch a tank and melt an Astartes where they stand is somehow supposed to be cool enough to outweigh my feeling of needing better kit to protect that warfighter.

 

The SW's should to me be one of the best stand and deliver armies available as we are the Emperor's army off Terra.

 

The heavy introduction of anti-PA weaponry I think comes from a severe lack of GW understanding how to address the armor side of the offense and defense dichotomy.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

As an MMO player, I concur with Olgerth.  The problem is, in my mind, conveying the issues we each have and forming a cohesive voice that sounds cogent and can be understood in the current meta, also known as, 6th edition.

 

From my experience, the single largest goof up on GW's part was how they treated flyers upon release: the Wright Brothers did not just fly, Flyers have been around in setting for over 10,000 years.  Flakk Missile Long Fangs would have not only made sense, there is at least one compelling argument I think I can make about this subject.  The overall issue to me is, if everyone, all armies, had been FAQ'ed Flakk in response to the new editions as if the kit options were always there, then we'd be so much better off.  It's so bad for some, there was one group in a store I played at that let SW's take Flakk at DA points costs so they could play and not get reduced to rubble.

 

As far as GH's go, my above stems from the problem itself overall, I'd say: it's not the death of GH's, it's the death and dearth of PA models in general that needs to be dealt with.  The "fun" of Apoc is things dying on the field, to most.  I must ask, how?  To try to tone down my own post, I can only guess that people think portable microwave guns that can punch a tank and melt an Astartes where they stand is somehow supposed to be cool enough to outweigh my feeling of needing better kit to protect that warfighter.

 

The SW's should to me be one of the best stand and deliver armies available as we are the Emperor's army off Terra.

 

The heavy introduction of anti-PA weaponry I think comes from a severe lack of GW understanding how to address the armor side of the offense and defense dichotomy.

And what, exactly, is the issue with a Flyer based solutions for the Space Wolves, that a Flakk Long Fang is so much better than? 

[Leif-thunderstand]

Russ want us fighting with our feet on the ground .... I guess thats why ....

[Russ Brother 92]

OR we could be sensible and get ourselves a Storm Eagle and a pair of Fire Raptors to blast those fallacies and our detractors to smithereens :)

[Leif-thunderstand]

Yeahhh!!! I would like that. (good to me, fighting with feet on ground is just about teleporting)

[Karack Blackstone]

As an MMO player, I concur with Olgerth. The problem is, in my mind, conveying the issues we each have and forming a cohesive voice that sounds cogent and can be understood in the current meta, also known as, 6th edition.

From my experience, the single largest goof up on GW's part was how they treated flyers upon release: the Wright Brothers did not just fly, Flyers have been around in setting for over 10,000 years. Flakk Missile Long Fangs would have not only made sense, there is at least one compelling argument I think I can make about this subject. The overall issue to me is, if everyone, all armies, had been FAQ'ed Flakk in response to the new editions as if the kit options were always there, then we'd be so much better off. It's so bad for some, there was one group in a store I played at that let SW's take Flakk at DA points costs so they could play and not get reduced to rubble.

As far as GH's go, my above stems from the problem itself overall, I'd say: it's not the death of GH's, it's the death and dearth of PA models in general that needs to be dealt with. The "fun" of Apoc is things dying on the field, to most. I must ask, how? To try to tone down my own post, I can only guess that people think portable microwave guns that can punch a tank and melt an Astartes where they stand is somehow supposed to be cool enough to outweigh my feeling of needing better kit to protect that warfighter.

The SW's should to me be one of the best stand and deliver armies available as we are the Emperor's army off Terra.

The heavy introduction of anti-PA weaponry I think comes from a severe lack of GW understanding how to address the armor side of the offense and defense dichotomy.

And what, exactly, is the issue with a Flyer based solutions for the Space Wolves, that a Flakk Long Fang is so much better than?

Russ want us fighting with our feet on the ground .... I guess thats why ....

OR we could be sensible and get ourselves a Storm Eagle and a pair of Fire Raptors to blast those fallacies and our detractors to smithereens

Yeahhh!!! I would like that. (good to me, fighting with feet on ground is just about teleporting)

What I was getting at is that at least Flakk Missiles is a reasonable thing. Since we don't even get Flakk Missiles and all anyone hears when we say Storm Eagle or Fire Raptor is Forge World Models, well, I think you might be able to see where I'm going with this.

What we need is a fully plastic Storm Eagle kit in our Codex; failing that, at least transfer the model into the new book and if need be, give it the WH40K Approved stamp, even if the points are adjusted a little.

[Leif-thunderstand]

Thats what i'm talking about, brother.

(actualy this stuff we are talking about would may belong more to the new codex rumors thread or the how do vlka fenryka antiair these days) .... A GW Thunderbird with rules for it in the new SW Codex ... So i can still stand on my point to not use allies

[Hear da Lamentation]

But in the mean time .... what do we do ? :)

[Grimtooth]

/sigh

[Leif-thunderstand]

Using Flak allies or try to come in a cc fast enoght. Maybe with rhinos and droppods , maybe with our quick stormunits. Or both. ...

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Thats what i'm talking about, brother.

(actualy this stuff we are talking about would may belong more to the new codex rumors thread or the how do vlka fenryka antiair these days) .... A GW Thunderbird with rules for it in the new SW Codex ... So i can still stand on my point to not use allies

Eventually it circles back around to Grey Hunters before another rabbit rears its ugly head...

 

:p

[Bloody Legionnaire]

"We had it good before, it's time we had it bad" is silly MMORPG logic. "Hey Bob, ur class pwned face forlikeever, hope u get nerfed next patch, nublet!" Of course, perfect balance is impossible and there will always be "stars" and "dogs" in any gaming system, but purposefully taking a "star" and turning it into a "dog" only makes sense if you are making money off this transformation.

 

At the end of the day, an army based primarily around tactical marines or grey hunters is no longer viable. You absopositely NEED to resort to shenanigans to win in any kind of a competitive scenario, and the said shenanigans are decidedly vomit-inducing. Because suddenly, your xeno-annihilating, lightning-strike force needs to bring along Tau to do the shooting and stash a fortress in its back pocket for protection from things that tear through PA like paper.

 

If I were to use the 1913's British Army analogy, I would say that we are 1913's British Army executing cavalry charges against modern-day MBTs and valiantly firing volleys from our bolt-action rifles while our enemies tool around in body armor armed with assault rifles. Sure, clever tactics can win the day every now and again, luck be a lady tonight and all that. But in most cases we are outclassed until we ask our former enemies for assault rifles/MBTs/body armor. Look at the majority of PA batreps floating around the interwebz: it's mostly either "welp, it was a good game and I ALMOST won" or "welp, the power armor did well sitting on the objectives, but allies carried the day."

Although, I feel the modern response to asymmetrical warfare, the better analogy. Most of the players at this point are still stuck in a very 5th edition, or conventional warfare minded list builds and unit tactics. 6th edition is going to require a possible unconventional approach to the game when considering what all are used to. The nerfing of PA troops (which may be a better title for the thread as GH will always *look* better than other loyalist chapters) as well as changes in playing dynamics may be purposed in order to *eh hmm* motivate us to buy and bring allies to the table. It definitely feels like those of us doing the most complaining are the ones going struggling with pure builds.. not so much allied builds. 

[Leif-thunderstand]

Even if alies had flak ... Greyhunters deliverd in rhinos are more my way of solution . ( so it finaly circled back :-P ) In cc they are even save from tau end eldar shootingweapons S7+. And BC with their value of 15 a troop, may spiced with WG and/or HQunit will also live long enoghth to bring 10 a troop finaly to cc ( with berserk)

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Random question, are we the only loyalist chapter that doesn't have scoring jump units? 

 

 

things have moved on. when the space wolves codex, was first released there was nothing like, grav guns, hell turkeys, knight class units, fliers ect but the game evolves and escalates and the space wolves codex has suffered due to not having access to similarly powerful units and being over coasted. despite all that we are still an army to be feared, which goes to show just how well written the codex is.

 

aye, at least were getting some sort of update in the spring too, think how templar players felt for nearly 10 years with no update!

 

> 

 conutinusing to say they are THE BEST,

 

 

aye but noone is saying they are the outright best. 

Actually I have heard/read repeatedly that many think they are the 'outright best' in the game..

I think  Blood Claws, Sky Claws, and even swift claws all need a pretty dramatic lowering of their point cost. I does kind of frustrate me that because of their price and their leader tax none of these units are really usable in any serious list.

Random question, are we the only loyalist chapter without scoring jump infantry? Or is it the other way around and BAs are the only ones with scoring jump infantry?