Ezekiel, worth it or not?

[Dark_Master]

Hello brothers,

 

Just wondered what people thought of Ezekiel?

 

As our only level 3 psyker he seems to be a no-brainer. However the lack of invulnerable save hurts. I had thought of pairing him with Azreal in a gun line to give some psychic defense.

 

But then the WS buff is wasted. Am I better using my level Libby in TDA armour?

 

DM

[SvenONE]

I think it really comes down to whatever role your HQ needs to be in a list.

 

Ezekiel is a great buy, and especially with the new Tigerius in the C:SM release some could argue that he's better (but the argument can go either way, they both have advantages).  The stock librarian is great for getting customization in your list.  The fact that your librarian can give himself (or models around him) an invuln through wargear IS pretty good (though I don't understand how the MASTER OF THEM can't).  

 

Anyway, ML3 is pretty awesome as is the 2+ artificer.  Having that ability to keep a warp charge leftover after a 2 charge ability (invisbility/hallucination) is pretty nice, I've made use of that pretty often.  Mind Worm isn't so bad either IF you get it off, but let me say I field him a good amount of the time in my GW lists and maybe 1/5 games I find a situation where mind worm is needed.  

 

I spoke with a GW employee about the +1 WS and he said that it applies to Ezekiel as well (nothing that says it doesn't, but then again nothing that says it does), so WS6 is a pretty great way to always get hits esp with a mastercrafted weapon.  I've sadly never enjoyed using him against C:CSM but I'm happy using him in normal games so I imagine that would be even better.  He usually sits in a tactical blob or drops in drop pod.

 

The stock librarian has his merits too and is a little more versatile.  You can put him on a bike, in terminator armor, and give him some toys (infravisor) to up his usefulness.  He CAN get expensive and you have to be careful how you use him.  2 wounds with a 3+ save requires caution.  I've used a librarian mostly as a terminator libby with a force axe at ML1 with a displacer field or as ML2.  It really depends on what squad he's in.  If he's with DW knights, I might go with ML2, if he's with just a regular terminator blob usually just ML1 for the prescience is enough.  

 

I will say running him and Azrael is very expensive though and your points might be better spent with a stock librarian.

[shabbadoo]

Ezekiel is worth it in very specific formations. His biggest benefit is the +1 WS for units within 6", but to use best Ezekiel will need to be in a position to Assault.  As he is a footslogger, that really only leave one decent option- the Land Raider.  You also want him to be giving that +1 WS to units that can make use of it to the greatest effect, meaning veterans unit with a base 2 Attacks.  That means Deathwing Terminators (Deathwing Knights are already WS 5, so another +1 WS usually won't help them much), any sort of Command Squad, Ravenwing Black Knights, and Company Veterans.  Most of these units are also armed do some real damage too.  Send them in en masse, in one wave; never piecemeal if you can help it.

 

Other than in the above situation, you would be better off fielding two level 1 Librarians.   Two level 1 Librarians have the benefit of being able to split their attention on the field of battle, provide an extra wound, extend the range of psychic hood benefits, make two of your units Fearless (if they are split up), and combined they cost less than Ezekiel.  Also, Ezekiel's third psychic power, Mind Worm, is really not very good at all, and he is required to have it.  Ezekiel may be a level 3 psyker, but it will most likely be his other two generated powers that he will rely on the most.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

IMHO fielding him with Azrael would be only for 2500+ points games. Anything under than that it's a huge chunk invested in HQ that are just support characters. I would say one or the other, not both at same time.

[FerociousBeast]

I assume people advocate Azrael w/ Ezekiel because of the invulnerable save? Cheaper alternative: Techmarine w/ PFG. Affordable and brings at least one power fist to the unit.

[Snickers]

I ran a Ezekiel in a Drop Pod list againest Necrons yesterday and he was definitely what held the list together. He rolled Misfortune and Prescience for his powers, Necrons arn't so tough when they your re rolling hits and there re rolling armour saves. What I feel holds him back is his fixed Warlord Trait, and bloody Mind Worm. Tried it three times in the game and after rolling for the check, deny the witch, D3 hits, roll to hit, roll to wound, and then they get a chance to save? I wish it still just pick a model and they take a leadership check, if they fail there removed from the board.

[SvenONE]

I ran a Ezekiel in a Drop Pod list againest Necrons yesterday and he was definitely what held the list together. He rolled Misfortune and Prescience for his powers, Necrons arn't so tough when they your re rolling hits and there re rolling armour saves. What I feel holds him back is his fixed Warlord Trait, and bloody Mind Worm. Tried it three times in the game and after rolling for the check, deny the witch, D3 hits, roll to hit, roll to wound, and then they get a chance to save? I wish it still just pick a model and they take a leadership check, if they fail there removed from the board.

 

Mind worm is AP2, was it an invuln?  In any case I do agree it's a lot of hoops to jump through.  I use it for kicks in most cases, but quite honestly psychic shriek is a better move especially since you'll be within 12" anyway.  Mind Worm isn't really conceived all that well.  The best candidates to use them on are multi-wound MCs/HQs, most will carry and invuln, and on the other hand you're wounding your S4 against something that's most likely higher.  

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Ezekiel is p good overall, although I have had mixed success with him. You have to pick your targets with him and not get him tangled against something which will completely destroy him in seconds. Like all our characters, he is a buffing individual rather than a CC monster

[Xenith]

I ran a Ezekiel in a Drop Pod list againest Necrons yesterday and he was definitely what held the list together. He rolled Misfortune and Prescience for his powers, Necrons arn't so tough when they your re rolling hits and there re rolling armour saves.

Remember that on the turn the pod comes down, you cannot cast blessings and curses - they are cast at the start of the turn.

[Darkangeldentist]

Ezekiel is entirely worth it, as a special character he lacks flexibility since you can't buy any wargear. For the points you pay and what you get though? He is a bargain! You just have to plan around the issue of his lack of invulnerable save. Simply taking a company master or interrogator chaplain helps a fair bit as the main risk to him from that lack of invulnerable save comes from challenges, if you have someone else to accept the challenges that threat becomes significantly less. (Precison strikes are frequently forgotten in my local meta.)

 

There are several ways to field him but partnering him up with another HQ to help field challenges can be huge, Azrael is the most potent and best partner for him in most circumstances since he actually grants Ezekiel an invulnerable save but a company master or interrogator chaplain can do well too. Deathwing knights are also an interesting option to accompany him as +1 toughness makes him a lot less worried about powerfists and missiles.

 

I disagree a little with others who have posted about the cost of having two HQs such as Azrael and Ezekiel in the same list, I do not think it's that high a price for what you get and after having gotten used to seeing people spend up to and beyond 25% of their points on HQs the pair don't seem all that expensive to me even at 1500pts.

 

Keeping the subject of Ezekiel's cost, like his last incarnation he is a bargain considering all the bells and whistles tagged on to him. (Even the last version widely reviled as useless in general play, if you actually cost up all his equipment and wargear he should have been much more expensive...but that's beside the point.) Difference between the current and previous versions is that Ezekiel is now both cheap (for what he does) and also generally just as good if not better than a regular librarian for the main task you brought him for. (Casting psychic powers, an instant death dealing weapon and some protection from enemy psykers.) If we compare Ezekiel's cost to what you'd pay to get similar effectiveness on the table I think he stands up pretty well, if not great. A Librarian with a 2+ save must be wearing terminator armour and if we make him level two then he's only 15pts off Ezekiel's cost, you get an invulnerable save but lose a wound, lack the master crafted weapons, mind worm and the book of salvation...I'd say Ezekiel's looking very good value here. The regular librarian has the flexibility of being able to pick any of the fun bits of wargear available to Dark angel HQs but it's easy to let the costs spiral a bit.

 

In terms of cost versus value what matters is what you expect your HQ to bring to the rest of the army and I would say that short of bringing a powerfield bubble to his fellows Ezekiel is generally equal if not greater value than a regular librarian.

 

On the subject of mind worm, I have gotten good use out of it although it is a very niche power. What can really make it shine as a power generally requires some help, notable examples are precognition as another power or rad grenades from Ravenwing black knights or command squad. Precognition is a power that I love rolling for Ezekiel regardless to be honest as it makes him extremely reliable, trying to crack a 2+ rerollable save can make an opponent cringe and the re-rolls extend to his ranged attacks making mind worm quite reliable. Being able to snipe out a sergeant or special weapon can be great and it's quite good in that role, the effect on multi-wound characters is impressive on paper but the real value is simply from having another AP2 ranged weapon to chuck at the enemy before you charge in. With 3 warp charge a turn to throw around he can cast 2-3 powers every turn which is great when you roll and keep some of cost 2 powers as you can still cast another power or with only single cost powers you can sometimes throw all of them out every turn. Although that can lead to terminal headaches.

[shabbadoo]

Master-crafted is not equivalent to +1 Attack, and so Traitor's Bane is inferior to a basic force sword. Ezekiel's sword isn't special, it is "special". Now, if it were also +1 Str, well, then it would be slightly better than a basic force sword, but it isn't. Besides, how often will Ezekiel be using Prescience and so be re-rolling to hit anyways, and you can't re-roll a re-roll...

Ergo, master-crafted is worth even less than we might think because it will probably not even be used most of the time. Damn. It is worse than I realized! A Grand Master of Librarians with what is supposed to be a super bad-arse Chapter relic sword, but that is in reality a sub-par sword? When something is bad-arse, at least write it to be at the tiniest bit better than the normal version of whatever it is. Now I feel glum.

So, we are not really taking Ezekiel for his sword to be sure.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Just another weapon that got 'V-tocked'. He is a crap dex writer, only four to eight years to wait for a decent dex ;)

[Darkangeldentist]

Yeah, it's always irritating when they take the time to give a piece of wargear a great name, possibly even unique history and then for rules just leave it as a plain bog-standard example of that item...or in the case of Dark angels it might be even worse than the regular version.

 

Can't defend traitor's bane as anything other than a disappointment but Ezekiel himself makes up for it a bit since he has +1 attack over a regular librarian so still chucks out the same number of attacks every round, with a re-roll so there is some positive there. However whilst traitor's bane may be dull as ditchwater for special rules it's still a force weapon so not something that can be totally ignored.

 

As for the prescience point, well he won't always be casting it on his own unit, sometimes others might need the help more. Like a devastator squad trying to hunt down fliers for example.

[FerociousBeast]

Traitor's Bane needs Bane of Traitors...

 

The really silly thing is that the sword is only two handed because the model happens to be holding it in two hands.

 

But this is similar to the Dark Angel champion controversy. Just because the weapon itself is inferior does not make the army list entry poor. The champion upgrade is still a good upgrade just as Ezekiel is still much superior to a librarian. He's got 3 attacks, 2+ save, WS6, and a natural reroll. Librarians can't match that.

[Major_Gilbear]

I really hate comparing across faction/codices, because it's quite clear that each one is designed without too much regard to the others - this way, only madness and jealousy lies!

 

...However, I sometimes can't help myself! :P

 

The thing that strikes me is that other codices seem to get a good number of cool characters that bring lots of useful things, and (more importantly) are actually good at something specific.

 

The DA characters are fluffy and have some great utility, but do often fail to be good at something specific in the way that others are. I can never understand why either - they can still be fluffy, but since they are based on specialist officers, should they not be better and/or more specialist than others in their organisation?

 

For example, Zeke should have an invulnerable save of some sort - without this he is very vulnerable in melee, and to precision fire pot-shots. His sword needs to do more; perhaps on expending a Warp Charge, he can add +2S? So for two WC, he has +2S and ID, which is situational but useful. His bionic eye used to have rules along the lines of ignoring cover - could he not have been the Auspex rules to reflect this as a minimum?

 

I love the model (always have!) and I will run him anyway (Rule of Cool always wins), but it makes me sad that for the 4th codex running, Zeke is basically just average when you look at what he brings overall. :(

[SvenONE]

Rule of cool! I love that!! (confers 5+ coolness to players army and +3 jealousy to opponent).

 

But yes, his sword is a bit lacking.  I think the two-handed is really because he's already got 3 attacks and MC.  As I had mentioned in an earlier post, a GW employee told me that he would say that the Book +1 WS buff applies to him as well, giving him a 6, meaning he's going to hit most HQs on a 3 re-rolling at least one of them.  He's been a tarpitter for me before but I'd prefer it if he could kill things, after all he's not shooting at anyone (master crafted bolt pistol? why?).

 

Totally agree about the bionic eye, auspex or infravisor abilities would have been cool, especially since he's a support unit to begin with.

 

Artificer is pretty good against most things especially with 3 wounds, if we had 3 available psyker powers instead of 2 then I'd probably attempt to roll pyromancy for Fiery form.  Otherwise it's never a bad move to roll Divination (as always).  Aside from prescience, Forewarning and Precognition are pretty good defensive options for him.

[FerociousBeast]

I'm sorry, you guys are straight up wrong on Ezekiel.

 

In no particular order:

 

Bionic eye - per the fluff, the bionic eye is a disadvantage that Ezekiel wears as an homage to those who died alongside him. As a disadvantage, it should not confer an advantage.

 

"Basically average" - He is far above average as a combat Librarian. He has I5. Basic librarians are I4 as is Tigurius. Ezekiel also has WS6 and 3 base attacks and a 2+ save, which is a far bigger deal in 6th edition. It means that most enemies who can bypass his armor save (w/ a power fist, thunder hammer, or power axe) need to wait for him to strike first, and he's got a force weapon. The only librarian I can think of who beats him in combat is Mephiston, which is appropriate.

 

"Needs an invulnerable save" - Librarians don't get invulnerable saves. They never have. Without TDA anyway. If you want a close combat character w/ an invulnerable save, you get a Company Master. The fact that our basic librarians CAN have invulnerable saves due to armoury purchases is a BONUS. It's not a baseline.

 

To quote DAD a couple posts up:

 

"A Librarian with a 2+ save must be wearing terminator armour and if we make him level two then he's only 15pts off Ezekiel's cost, you get an invulnerable save but lose a wound, lack the master crafted weapons, mind worm and the book of salvation...I'd say Ezekiel's looking very good value here. The regular librarian has the flexibility of being able to pick any of the fun bits of wargear available to Dark angel HQs but it's easy to let the costs spiral a bit."

 

Who thinks that a ML2 Librarian w/ TDA in our book is bad value? Judging by the number of them that show up in army lists I'd guess not many. Now add 15 points and take away a 5+ inv save and Deathwing Assault, but add ML3, WS6, +1 WS for his squad, another wound, an additional (master crafted) force weapon attack (because if we're talking TDA on a basic lib, we're talking only two attacks), and sweeping advance. Notice I'm not even including Mind Worm or the master-crafted pistol.

 

Tell me that's bad value.

[Interrogator Stobz]

That's bad value
I like Zeke; I like him a LOT, I just don't like Vetocks logic behind the rules for our special weapons, to me when writing a Characters stats they should be a reflection of how are how good they are skillwise, and their weapons (if special) reflect how good they are. THEN they should be costed, not just blended together in the mish mash unfocussed way many of our 'Special' Characters are.

Our writers seem to have a tradition of adding a bit on and taking a bit off to try to balance things up and often they either get it plain wrong or it just makes no sense, in this threads example ZEKE has good appropriate stats but Traitors Bane is unessessarily weaker than it should be. I would happily pay 10-15 more points for most of our Named Characters if they actually had some focus and didn't have all the slight and unessessary 'balance' nerfs.

I think that we here in the DA forum (without checking and counting) have more of these sorts of threads than other loyalist chapters, I believe that is because of the tradition mentioned above :P

2c

[FerociousBeast]

Well, I agree on Traitor's Bane, as mentioned a few posts up. It's just two-handed because the model happens to be using two hands. I think Vetock did overall a good job on the codex, but it being his first 40k dex definitely shows. There are a lot of newbie errors.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Agreed on an 'average' first codex write up ;), maybe they should have gotten somebody who actually plays DA to check the details of his work ( or just be bold and FAQ things to how they should be, not how scaredypants has balanced them )

[march10k]

Zeke...is a favorite of mine.  I used him about 50% of the time in my 4/5 edition green lists.  I haven't used him in 6th, not because he isn't good, but because I can get 90% of what I want out of a librarian (hint: it's not swinging a force sword) for 40% of the points.  When 95 points gets me a PFG and prescience, I'm just not willing to pay what Zeke costs (and then not get the PFG).  He is cheap for what you get.  Problem is, what you get isn't what I'm shopping for in the librarian department.

[Interrogator Stobz]

That's it in a nutter's shell.

[SvenONE]

Yeah it's really hard to argue against that line of thinking mainly because I don't think there's an argument to be had.  If the PFG didn't exist, maybe the stock librarian wouldn't look so good.  Combine the fact you can also put him in terminator armor or on a bike with the PFG (among a few other good trinkets), and it pretty much seals the deal.  A termie librarian with a PFG is only 125 points, you can give him a force axe for free and if you want to still spring for ML2 he's only slightly higher than Ezekiel, or you can forget ML2 and just go straight to getting a second librarian to make another squad fearless.

 

It all goes back to the fact that DA unique HQs just... aren't that great.  Not bad, just not that great.

[FerociousBeast]

OK, I was tracking with you, SvenONE, in your first paragraph, but then you had to go and add your last sentence.
 
Your argument boils down to this: I want Prescience and a PFG. Ezekiel is more expensive than a Librarian and can't have a PFG. Therefore he's "not that great." In other words, you use your subjective perspective and desires to draw objective conclusions.
 
If you just want Prescience and a PFG, this isn't the thread for you. This thread is about whether or not Ezekiel is good at what he does, and the answer is "Yes, very!"
 
Just because you're not in the market for what he does doesn't make him "not that great" or "average." It just means you're not in the market for what he does.

[SvenONE]

OK, I was tracking with you, SvenONE, in your first paragraph, but then you had to go and add your last sentence.

 

Your argument boils down to this: I want Prescience and a PFG. Ezekiel is more expensive than a Librarian and can't have a PFG. Therefore he's "not that great." In other words, you use your subjective perspective and desires to draw objective conclusions.

 

If you just want Prescience and a PFG, this isn't the thread for you. This thread is about whether or not Ezekiel is good at what he does, and the answer is "Yes, very!"

 

Just because you're not in the market for what he does doesn't make him "not that great" or "average." It just means you're not in the market for what he does.

 

Well that was just in response to March's assessment, which is in part the truth, and what the OP asked "what they thought of Ezekiel".  March feels that he's not worth it because the libby is a better option, and I can see that point of view - I do however choose to field him [Ezekiel] (but not reluctantly, he's been good for me in CQC before when he needs to be and his multiple psyker powers allow for a blessing and potentially a malediction each turn).  My other comment about them not being that great was relative to other codices unique HQs which have, what I would say, are clearly defined roles (bruiser vs shooter vs support)

 

 

If you read my comment way up top at the start of the thread (literally the second comment), I did outline the good uses for Ezekiel and the fact that fielding him depends on the role you want to fill.  I do field Ezekiel a decent amount of the time either by himself or with a second librarian depending on what my list looks like (2nd librarian on a bike or in terminator armor, nothing else).  The reason I can take him by himself is, as I said, because his cost is a great buy which gives me some support to my units (even if it is based on randomly generated psyker powers) and points saved for him being the cheaper of the unique HQs (Belial/Sammael/Azrael) get reinvest into either vet sarge upgrades or wargear options for my squads.