Be'Lakor The Dark Master

[Wade Garrett]

ADB, would you mind expounding on what you mean by becoming a Daemon Prince meaning you can never effect reality in a significant way?

 

While it's true that some of them (Barban Falk, Lorgar) have seemingly abandoned the Materium to do Warp stuff for eternity, there are others that seem to take a more active hand in affairs.

 

Acerbus of the Night Lords still leads the largest VIII Legion warband as it reaves through the Imperium, and I'd imagine the devastation they leave in their wake would count as influencing reality to lasting effect.

 

The same for Magnus and his

assault on Fenris in battle of the Fang.

 

Now, I already admitted that for every guy who's just fighting the Long War with horns and wings there's another who went "Smell you later, going to hang out with the cool kids on the other side" but never influencing reality to lasting effect seems a bit much.

[Scribe]

At the end of the day, a Daemon Prince perhaps cannot stay in the Material forever. Even if not banished/destroyed, they are things of the Warp?

[daboarder]

That would be completely baseless, thats half the point of daemon princes, they aren't constrained to the warp the way greater daemons are.

[Iron_Within]

Exactly, and they are slave to the whims of their god. Be'lakor is unique in that has been raised by all the gods, which means he has a greater illusion of free will, but he doesn't. He is a slave to all four, and his free will is an illusion of the bickering over a chessboard piece.

 

Also, Daemon Princes are stuff of the warp, they like daemons have no physical form, they manifest one. It might be easier for Daemon princes, but they still have to so their time in the material realm is limited. It's why the Daemon Primarchs don't get out much (beings of such immense power find it even harder again, last time Angron came out to play, he turn Armageddon into a hellscape just to stay in the material realm).

 

EDIT: Yes they were once mortal, but that doesn't mean they are material. It is easier for them to manifest but they in terms of their biology (!?!) they are as much a creature of the warp as any other daemon, it's just they might have one foot in the material realm (well a toe).

[Scribe]

Yeah, I still cant see a true Daemon Prince rocking it over any random world without some serious warp support. The comment on Angron is a good one.

[the jeske]

Yes they were once mortal, but that doesn't mean they are material.

It is easier for them to manifest but they in terms of their biology

(!?!) they are as much a creature of the warp as any other daemon, it's

just they might have one foot in the material realm (well a toe).

In the old days it worked like that . Primarchs who god demon princed , could stay an indefinite time in the material realm , because they had their own body reshaped by god/gods , but when they die the first time they lose their material body and are changed in to pure energy created beings . After that they worked like normal demons with the onedifference being  that , because of how sensitive their souls are to the warp , they could keep themself longer in the material plane , but they had to be summoned just like other demons etc.

 

I don't know how it is suppose to work right now , now they are less beings of biology and more warp sensitive to the warp , before the fall [not just magnus] . I guess they still work like other demons , but because of how strong their soul/will is , they can force themself to stay in the material plane longer . Angron for example doesn't suffer from the fading the way rest of his force does at Aramgeddon . Same with Fulgrim although with him it is rather tricky and he probably works more like possessed mortals.

 

 

 

Maybe in the w40k cosmology it works a bit like the concept of souls "size" among syberian tribes . The believe that a soul has a size . And that some people can be more heroic or have a higher status because their souls are bigger and that , because of that when a hero/chief those something out of the norm of a human it isn't realy heroic it is normal .

Maybe it works a bit like that. When a mortal , gets powered up in to demon level . His body+soul are of a certain size and special hightened status can be kept up only for some time [as long as the gods are able to power it up].With the primarch it is the same only their souls+body are vastly bigger , plus because they are partly warp creatures themselfs it is easier to up keep .

[A D-B]

Exactly, and they are slave to the whims of their god. Be'lakor is unique in that has been raised by all the gods, which means he has a greater illusion of free will, but he doesn't. He is a slave to all four, and his free will is an illusion of the bickering over a chessboard piece.

 

Also, Daemon Princes are stuff of the warp, they like daemons have no physical form, they manifest one. It might be easier for Daemon princes, but they still have to so their time in the material realm is limited. It's why the Daemon Primarchs don't get out much (beings of such immense power find it even harder again, last time Angron came out to play, he turn Armageddon into a hellscape just to stay in the material realm).

 

EDIT: Yes they were once mortal, but that doesn't mean they are material. It is easier for them to manifest but they in terms of their biology (!?!) they are as much a creature of the warp as any other daemon, it's just they might have one foot in the material realm (well a toe).

 

What I_W said. 

 

One of Abaddon's main strengths is in resisting the call of daemonic immortality, which is a large part of why he's a threat to the material realm. Be'lakor's very first move was to accept/succumb to what Abaddon has spent ten thousand years defying.

 

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

[Sception]

More powerful daemons can stay longer, and resist banishment more effectively, but also need more time & energy to manifest in the first place.

 

That said, saying they give up the chance to influence the material plane is grossly inaccurate. What they give up is the ability to manipulate it purely to their own design, rather than under the influence & control of their deific patrons. To say that Angron or Mortarion, or even pure daemonic entities like N'Kari or Fateweaver, don't influence the course of mortal destiny is simply not true, and likewise for Be'lakor. It's their free will, not their power or influence, that is in question. And even then, it's only in question. With beings as powerful as the primarchs, the idea that any one chaos god, or even all of them together, could ever be certain of their control is dubious at best.

 

And as for Be'lakor - the gods are nearly always at odds. Even if he must serve one god or another at any time, if he gets to choose which god's purposes he serves moment to moment, then that's still a considerable degree of freedom, all the more so in his fallen state, with the gods having removed all of the gifts and powers that they could. Think of it this way - if he truly had no free will, then how could he have played them off against each other as long as he did? And what need would there have been to punish him or strip away his toys?

 

The deference of daemonic figures to the will of the gods is, I feel, rather frequently overstated. It doesn't fit with the tales we have of daemons rebelling, plotting against their own masters, or even being tricked into striking against them. That the gods have massive influence over those daemons they create or elevate is certainly true, but not final and constant control, and once created it certainly seems the gods are unable or unwilling to completely unmake a daemon - else daemons that have fallen out of favor like the masque and, yes, even Be'lakor, simply wouldn't exist. Total daemonic slavery to the will of their patrons simply does not fit with the narrative when it comes to the actual acts of actual daemons in canon.

 

 

And, once more, we now have Be'lakor actively working to subvert Abaddon, champion of all four gods, and in so doing spite all the gods at once, acting against all of their interests. Were he to succeed in making such a strike - even were the attempt to fail - Be'lakor would have proved his true independence.

[A D-B]

More powerful daemons can stay longer, and resist banishment more effectively, but also need more time & energy to manifest in the first place.

 

That said, saying they give up the chance to influence the material plane is grossly inaccurate.

 

No one's said that, and I don't think anyone believes it, either.

 

 

What they give up is the ability to manipulate it purely to their own design, rather than under the influence & control of their deific patrons. To say that Angron or Mortarion, or even pure daemonic entities like N'Kari or Fateweaver, don't influence the course of mortal destiny is simply not true,

 

 

Again, no one's saying, implying, or believing that. It'd be madness.

 

 

and likewise for Be'lakor. It's their free will, not their power or influence, that is in question. And even then, it's only in question. With beings as powerful as the primarchs, the idea that any one chaos god, or even all of them together, could ever be certain of their control is dubious at best.

 

Actually, naw. That part's not true. Once you become a daemon prince, you're a shard of your God, with all that entails. 

[Wade Garrett]

Except it's hard to imagine how that works for Undivided guys like Lorgar, Perturabo, or Bel.

 

I can wrap my head around Angron being just a fragment of Khorne, but being a fragment of all four at once?

[A D-B]

Except it's hard to imagine how that works for Undivided guys like Lorgar, Perturabo, or Bel.

 

I can wrap my head around Angron being just a fragment of Khorne, but being a fragment of all four at once?

 

Tell me about it. Some of this stuff is a nightmare to grasp. It makes novels on the subject very, very late.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

Except it's hard to imagine how that works for Undivided guys like Lorgar, Perturabo, or Bel.

 

I can wrap my head around Angron being just a fragment of Khorne, but being a fragment of all four at once?

Tell me about it. Some of this stuff is a nightmare to grasp. It makes novels on the subject very, very late.

I'm not sure if knowing the hearts of darkness pumping life into this franchise have just as much trouble grappling with some of the... more flavorful aspects of the lore as we consumer-peons is comforting or makes me sad.

 

Let's go with both! :p

[Sception]

No one's said that, and I don't think anyone believes it, either.

"thereby losing any hope of influencing material reality with any lasting purpose." <- that's the bit we're objecting to, where you seem to imply that daemon princes cannot 'influence material reality with any lasting purpose.'

 

As for all daemons being a 'shard of their god' and thus having no free will whatsoever - I don't deny that daemons are shards of their gods, or that daemon princes are at least in part that - the shard is fused with the mortal soul, it does not overwrite it entirely.

 

That said, they are shards of their gods that have been broken off to create an independent creature - one powerfully influenced by its patron, but not of the same mind and being with it. The multiple stories of daemons willfully betraying the gods, or being tricked into doing so, or even just disappointing their gods by misreading their mood, simply wouldn't function otherwise. Be'lakor, as a daemon played the gods for fools, for which to be possible his mind and motivations at least could not have been completely subject to them - so no, he's not merely an extension of their being or will. He may not have the freedom to truly strike against one without simultaneously serving another, but then again, maybe he does. Neither he nor the gods will know until he has a chance to strike at Abaddon and either drives the dagger in or drops it and bends his knee.

[A D-B]

 

"thereby losing any hope of influencing material reality with any lasting purpose." <- that's the bit we're objecting to, where you seem to imply that daemon princes cannot 'influence material reality with any lasting purpose.'

 

 

Not seeing much "we're", here. After I explained it clearer already, seems like all is well.

 

And look at that sentence in the context of what we're discussing. Firstly, even out of context, it's true - as qualified in the following three posts I already made explaining it better. Secondly, in context, I was referring to it in relation to Abaddon, where it's doubly true.

 

If you look at what you said, you were taking it to an extreme I never mentioned, and to a degree I clearly refuted and explained several times afterwards. Starting to look a little like trying to disagree, now:

 

 

saying they give up the chance to influence the material plane is grossly inaccurate.

 

 

To say that Angron or Mortarion, or even pure daemonic entities like N'Kari or Fateweaver, don't influence the course of mortal destiny is simply not true,

 

This is what I mean. The only person saying those things is you, dude. They don't even make sense to me, which should give you an idea of how much I'm not saying them.

 

EDIT: I'm on my iPad and my replies are accordingly short and/or rushed - this sounds way angrier and more confrontational than I intended, Mal.

[daveNYC]

If the attempt failed, then you could argue that the gods just let him try to off Abaddon in order to light a fire under his butt.  Otherwise I totally agree with you concerning daemonic free will.  If the various daemons and daemon-princes are nothing more than extensions of their patron deity's power, then chunks of the daemon fluff don't make much sense.  On the one hand you have Slaanesh and Khorne banishing or otherwise getting angry at entities that are, in theory, just semi-independent extensions of their will, and on the other hand, you've got Tzeentch sending the blue scribes out on their hunt because he's worried that any of his other daemons will try and kill him if they get their hands on the staff.

 

It does make for some lovely symmetry though.  It means that daemonic ascension is simultaneously winning and losing everything.  The newly minted daemon prince has gained immortality in return for losing the freedom to exploit that immortality as they see fit.  They already sacrificed their humanity, and now they've sacrificed themselves.

 

Unfortunately it ends up making Chaos less Chaotic.  If all daemons and daemonic princes are nothing more than pawns of their patrons, and there are only the four big powers, then it reduces the warp from what should be a wild and varied environment and turns it into four way gang warfare of Jets vs. Sharks vs. Hatfields vs. McCoys.

[A D-B]

Except it's hard to imagine how that works for Undivided guys like Lorgar, Perturabo, or Bel.

I can wrap my head around Angron being just a fragment of Khorne, but being a fragment of all four at once?

Tell me about it. Some of this stuff is a nightmare to grasp. It makes novels on the subject very, very late.

I'm not sure if knowing the hearts of darkness pumping life into this franchise have just as much trouble grappling with some of the... more flavorful aspects of the lore as we consumer-peons is comforting or makes me sad.

Let's go with both!

Ah, if only my insanely huge Chaos archive only had one contradiction!

[A D-B]

 

Unfortunately it ends up making Chaos less Chaotic.  If all daemons and daemonic princes are nothing more than pawns of their patrons, and there are only the four big powers, then it reduces the warp from what should be a wild and varied environment and turns it into four way gang warfare of Jets vs. Sharks vs. Hatfields vs. McCoys.

 

That's an interesting angle. I'm avoiding most of the discussion of Chaos/daemons/free will here, but I think that's a slightly surface-based interpretation of the Chaos Gods. Like, a bit rulebooky, if you get me. The very nature of the Ruinous Powers means that they do indeed screw themselves over in a billion ways. It's all part of the cosmic Chaotic stew, and a significant factor in why the Chaos Gods are such rich, deep, nuanced concepts - rather than just Blue versus Red versus Pink versus Green, with such utterly defined boundaries. 

 

The absolutely breathtaking breadth of the Four Powers and their internal contradictions is what makes it interesting and deep, not simple and shallow.

 

EDIT: In terms of Greek Gods, I'd absolutely agree with you. But we're dealing with the nightmares, the pain, the death, and the suffering of every living being to ever have lived, manifest in Hell-dimension hate-soup, that mortals call "Gods" because it's the only way to frame it in context.

 

To require "free will" or separation from a daemon's avataric concept is to do the depth of the setting a bit of a disservice. It implies a cohesive perfection that doesn't exist. Think of the human body - that works against itself all the time. Your cells die. You get cancer. You age. You get diseases. Antibodies fight off the wrong thing, and compromise the body's defences. You can have disabled children. And all of this can happen in a body that takes excellent care of itself. The Gods are no different in that sense. Their very essences act against each other, and themselves, in the Great Game. 

[Sception]

I'm sorry for still not picking up on the clarification? I still don't really see it, but so be it. Point is, we agree that daemons can influence the material realm, they just can't live there, and that Abaddon is more dangerous (to the Imperium, anyway) than he would be as a prince because of the clarity of focus his mortal identity allows - though I still feel there's some implication that as a daemon he would lose all autonomy, and I don't think that really works, conceptually.

 

 

If you look at what you said, you were taking it to an extreme I never mentioned

 

...

 

This is what I mean. The only person saying those things is you, dude. They don't even make sense to me, which should give you an idea of how much I'm not saying them.

I was providing counterexamples of daemons that have had lasting influence on the material realm, as a rebuttal to a statement that daemons don't have lasting influence on the material realm.

 

 

And again, for the shard of the gods bit, daemons are made of a portion of their gods (daemon princes made in part of such a portion), but once created they are at least in part separate, with their own minds and motivations. They have to be. Otherwise a daemon like Be'lakor, who manipulated the gods, or like the masque, who misunderstood hers and was misunderstood by it in turn, or skarbrand, who was manipulated into attacking his, simply wouldn't exist.

 

 

Too often 40k fluff gets into absolutes, and the chaos fluff has been suffering from this for years. Cutting chaos from an unknowable maelstrom of countless gods and powers of which the four are simply the ones most interested in mortal affairs to the current version where the four are literally the sum total of anything that exists in the immaterium was in my mind, an error in the judgment of whoever was in charge of that decision, and trying to reduce all daemons to being simply an extension of their gods will seems likewise to me. Giving up much of your independence to become a daemon works, but all of it? There's a wide range of degrees of freedom here between 'completely free to do as they wish' and 'total slaves to the powers in word and deed and thought', it's not just a switch with two possible settings. That just doesn't seem to jive with the characters we already have, and implies a version of the warp which seems, to me, to be yet again to be smaller than what preceded it.

[daveNYC]

I absolutely agree that the Chaos gods are very interesting and relatively nuanced concepts.  Nugle is the god of decay and entropy, but decay produces life and without life there cannot be any decay.  It's all good stuff, with every dark power being almost his own worse enemy.

 

It's just unfortunate that the current path for chaos at GW is becoming rather rulebooky and limited.  Between the removal of Chaos Undivided, the daemon codex including descriptions of the gods' various realms in the warp, and the fact that the warp seems to have just become far more evil and corrupting as the setting has evolved, the whole thing has become far more two-dimensional.

[Sception]

Eh, I liked it better when life was more Tzeentch's purview than Nurgle's (which I thought used to be the case, but maybe I'm just remembering wrong?). The struggle to live, diversification of forms, perpetual adaptation, evolutionary arms races where creatures are constantly changing just to keep up with no end in sight, etc. Just feels more Tzeentchy. But that's neither here nor there.

 

 

As for the depth of the four powers, it feels to me as though they've gotten shallower over time? Like, remember when khorne had aspects of nobility and martial discipline and not just incoherent rage? I haven't felt as much of that in recent years, at least not from the fluff in the rulebooks. The chaos gods just don't feel any more subtle or varied internally than any other fantasy deity. Less so, frequently. I never felt like the four powers grew in subtlety or depth or scope to make up for the loss of chaos undivided or of all the lesser powers. Quite the contrary.

[daveNYC]

Ah, my point was that Nurgle's portfolio of entropy and decay does require life and growth in order for there to be anything to decay.  So he requires his opposite to do his thing, otherwise there's nothing for Nurgle to work with, and if Nurgle does his job too well, there's nothing available to decay either.  

[Sception]

And Khorne requires warriors to have some pleasure tent down time for there to be a new generation of skulls to chop off, but that tent still feels more like Slaanesh's purview. Part of the gimmick of the gods was that they were so single minded in their goals that they would burn their own power out - nurgle would rot everything till there was nothing left to rot, khorn murder everything till there was no one else to murder, etc, at which point their power would wane, allowing their rivals to take the stage.

 

Which is neat and all, but also runs pretty strictly counter to the idea of individual gods having all that much breadth or diversity of scope in their portfolio, so maybe letting that aspect fade away works better.

[Prot]

 

More powerful daemons can stay longer, and resist banishment more effectively, but also need more time & energy to manifest in the first place.

 

That said, saying they give up the chance to influence the material plane is grossly inaccurate.

 

No one's said that, and I don't think anyone believes it, either.

 

I don't know why, but I could swear I read something like this a while ago. For some reason I am thinking it is Dan Abnett... a novel where 'wirewolves' or something like that are 'twice wrought' or some lingo like that.  I am thinking it was said, somewhere, that smaller 'giblets' from the warp don't take as much work to get into the material world, but they don't last long.

 

Then I'm thinking of the Daemon Prince or 'big scary warp giblet' in a Gav Thorpe short story based on 'the Lion'. Isn't that giant warp giblet much more tangible in the material world, but quite potent? Tougher to banish?

 

Maybe I'm making this up, but I thought little warp giblets were more unstable than the bigger giblets. (I don't want to say lesser daemons or greater daemons or daemon princes because I'm not sure if that's a category of 'easier' or 'tougher' daemon to conjure/summon.)

 

=======================================

 

Kind of a side note... this is an interesting thread and I wish I knew more of this Be'lakor dude. Sounds interesting but here's my question:

 

If a Daemon Prince can't really lead in the material universe, why would -most- (not all) of the Primarchs even bother?

 

I mean Perturabo is the perfect example of this to me. I thought from the old flulff... like 10+ years ago, Perturabo kicked butt in the material universe when needed?

 

A personality like Perturabo's just NEEDS to be in the material universe. I think his hatred of the old dude poopin' in the golden potty is waaay bigger than the need for a cool bedroom in the warp.

 

Perturabo is just one example but I would think a great deal of the primarchs would prefer material presence over residing in an evil unicorn, acid trippy, universe. Magnus being the exception for obvious reasons....

[oreaper84]

I've always thought that the BIG 4 for chaos are (as was conceptualy illistrated for some time in the mythos) manisfestations of vice in the warp. Every little twinge of emotion may manifest in the warp. Bob bulldozed a forest and a group of hippies now hate Bob....kerplow a minor deamon is created (or at least the emotion associated is then link to a warp entity) The big 4 just perhaps got the lucky lot of being broad and frequent concepts. With the continuation of the associated emotions/concepts of each of the patron gods they then grow in power. With Be'Lakor, such was his influence that he recieved more power (which in my opinion equates to independence) directly from the mortal realm as well as the big 4. Finding this the Gods cut off the tap and left poor little Bel to fend for himself. I feel his motives are two-fold, to undermind the gods yes but also to spead his influence across the galaxey as well.

[Sception]

Yeah, the way the fluff on Daemon Princes has hashed out the last couple editions, I can no longer picture a version of Peturabo who would go in for that, at least not willingly.