30k or 40k?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

At the moment with regards to lore and interest 30k is leading the way for me with regard to fluff content and 'possibility' the possibility to create splinter loyalists and the like, to promote a generic human child who may become an astartee to defy a demi god of a primarch and show the true nature of a hero.

 

40k has lost its edge for me any one else feel this way, and to people feel their view on WH is changing with the new stuff as we find out about the 30k astartees and the role humanity played within it?

 

Sorry bit of a random thread but thought i'd finally voice that itch I could not reach.

[deathspectersgt7]

Since I have not played since 4th .I"D rather play SH or KT.I Like the stories in both could care less for the rules and collect the chapters.

[MordentHex]

Define "defy."  If you mean something like a punching match with a primarch, no unaugmented human is going to with that fight and very few that are augmented. Now if you mean someone like Luther, that's more of a possibility.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Define "defy." If you mean something like a punching match with a primarch, no unaugmented human is going to with that fight and very few that are augmented. Now if you mean someone like Luther, that's more of a possibility.

Or Istvaan III and the various other "purges" where members of the Traitor Legions did not follow their Primarchs into Heresy, which is what the OP is referring to I believe.

[Russ Brother 92]

For me as I've always been an Iron Hands & Space Wolves player, partly because I couldn't resist the books and models, and partly because GW have butchered a LOT of the fluff that made divergent chapters unique (from the new Clan Raukaan being entirely codex - to Blood Angels going friendly with Necrons or Ultras fist-bumping Tau...) My Iron Hands are now pure 30k, however I still run my 40k Wolves at times (at least for a change in tactics/game style) but I may end up going full 30k once Inferno comes out and using my 40k for that.

 

I'd say apart from the very consistent BL fluff 40k is way out and for game play well they're both 6th Ed rules.

[facmanpob]

40K - I'm getting a bit jaded with all of the semi-random 40K releases. I remember last year everyone complained that the 25th anniversary of 40k was underwhelming in the lack of releases, but at the moment it's way too much. This year we have had 6 codexes, 2 Expansions, 5 supplements and now the formation and unit datasheets, and over 50% of the releases have come in the last 3 months. It's all very unfocussed and I've lost any excitement for a release that I previously had.

 

30K (and Forgeworld in general) - Structured releases, with advance notice given about models/books in many cases, enabling us to build up excitement and interest at coming releases. Throw in the odd random release that takes everyone by surprise and you have a system that generates positive feeling and a sense of fun.....

 

I'm with Forgeworld at the moment....

[Kol Saresk]

Not to mention better written rules and fluff that caters to the fans. A la Iron Hands with actual Iron Hands.

[marine7312000]

I am definitely leaning more towards 30k than 40k right now. Now it's just  matter of deciding which legion to go with.

[GhostMalone]

I feel compelled to build every legion and place my signiture grittiness to them all.

 

One day I will...

[Russ Brother 92]

I feel compelled to build every legion and place my signiture grittiness to them all.

 

One day I will...

I await this with eagerness and baited breath brother :)

 

I'm currently trying to build 5-10k IHs and then move on to small units of each Legion - Primarch + 1-2 Legion Specific squads :)

[GhostMalone]

The potential is sooooo worth it

[deathspectersgt7]

I feel compelled to build every legion and place my signiture grittiness to them all.

One day I will...

What does the better half have to say about that ?

[AlabasterKnight]

The problem lies in the 10,000 year gap. I'm sure when the games creators were writing the fluff, a lot of the elements they wrote about seemed pretty cool.

 

The description of the ages and actions leading up to 30k are consistent, ripe with possibilities. Change occurs in explainable intervals and believable science fiction theory applies to a large degree.

 

Then what? 10,000 years of "All the good primarchs are dead or missing, the evil primarchs are demons and none of the other races have near the development in the story as far as actual product importance." Sure, BL can release novels about Eldar, Necrons, Tau and Tyranids, but they give them no ability to approach the core story with any relevance that impacts the way the Heresy does.

 

What is the most serious flaw in spite of that weakness is that they chose to portray an era (The Future) that we as people look to for the possibilities as a depressing and one-dimensional struggle.

They portray humanity as fearful filth with no ambition or innovation.

Stupid beings with no capacity to realize the High Lords of Terra and their plan are not serving humanity at all.

The fluff that explains why technology is rare, how religion is perpetuated and in some of the largest tripe, how man somehow has to use "psychic" powers to navigate hell to achieve interstellar travel are all stagnations that would never last ten thousand years.

The concept of Terra becoming one big city hive, the idea that the largest of warmachines would have small buildings riding on their shoulders...

 

I could easily find more holes and pings or things I find incredible. It's when you look at time, materials, communication, innovation and the like that 30k doesn't seem to emphasize the outrageous nature of these things. They remain at least part of an interesting landscape not convoluted by their presence or the influence of xenos in the landscape. But when you add ten thousand years of non-descript BS about "There is only war", the setting absence the pace of what went on in 30k becomes flat.

 

The origins of this ten millennia fail has everything to do with the greater structure of the setting and the dimensions of the Immaterium and Materium and how they interact. The lack of acknowledgment of *other* dimensions, galaxies and the like. There's a lot of potential in 40k, but it's too far removed from 30k to believe that 30k has any direct relationship to 40k now and that seems to be the dissonance the OP is surely feeling.

 

EDIT: If the Warp is another dimension, what keeps the Eye of Terror or other 'warp storms' from expanding in cataclysmic fashion? Is not the barrier that keeps the two dimensions broken? How big was it at the birth of Slaanesh? How big then at the onset of the Heresy? Why isn't it freaking huge now?

 

Signed,

An old battle brother.

[depthcharge12]

@Ak

 

Unfortunately brother, GWs new motto is "war is approaching"

 

 

which is incredibly laughable, not to mention the fact that they've stagnated any storylines. I feel that only due to FW as of late has any 30/40k had any progression.

 

 

With FW, we have the incredible Badab series, Siege of Vraks, and the 30k books which expand the legions beyond their basic themes.

 

GW has even regressed from the near end times and made everyone buddy buddy, except for tyranids, who its only a MATTer of time before we see a trygon brofist some wyches. (get it, Matt ward, matter of time, he is rumored to write the next nid dex lol)

[AlabasterKnight]

@dc12

 

I feel ya.

It's the gap they just can't address.

We all know that change happens so rapidly that the landscape ten millennia later would be vastly evolved and it's not.

It's almost like when they put a year on the game, they bit off more than they could chew.

 

There are ways around it, but I fear we won't see a cure any time soon.

For now 30k is the deal, the other is inflated and pricey for a lot less quality.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, 40K is limited by how it is able to expand. It can only expand backwards, or be filled up. It literally is the setting, so to go past it, is to leave the setting. Unfortunately, what was once popular among the setting(Iron Hands with actual Iron Hands for example) are now being removed by the Powers That Be(Iron Hands are now Codex-compliant). So where once 40K was something of a blank canvas that was slowly being built upon, it has all pretty much been painted over and then quartered, restricting just how much volume can be filled.

 

Meanwhile, 30K which is something that was never suppose to be expanded, is rapidly filling up as well as expanding. Now, we wouldn't know it here since we're all pretty much PA fans and the Heresy is pretty much a PA event, but the only real limitation of the Heresy is the lack of xenos. Granted, we see something here or there, like Orks and the Cabal, but the event of the Horus Heresy doesn't really concern them.

 

So both do have their limiting factors. But where 40K used to be a place for creativity to flourish, it is being stifled. And 30K has ironically picked up the slack.

[depthcharge12]

Well, 40K is limited by how it is able to expand. It can only expand backwards, or be filled up. It literally is the setting, so to go past it, is to leave the setting. Unfortunately, what was once popular among the setting(Iron Hands with actual Iron Hands for example) are now being removed by the Powers That Be(Iron Hands are now Codex-compliant). So where once 40K was something of a blank canvas that was slowly being built upon, it has all pretty much been painted over and then quartered, restricting just how much volume can be filled.

 

Meanwhile, 30K which is something that was never suppose to be expanded, is rapidly filling up as well as expanding. Now, we wouldn't know it here since we're all pretty much PA fans and the Heresy is pretty much a PA event, but the only real limitation of the Heresy is the lack of xenos. Granted, we see something here or there, like Orks and the Cabal, but the event of the Horus Heresy doesn't really concern them.

 

So both do have their limiting factors. But where 40K used to be a place for creativity to flourish, it is being stifled. And 30K has ironically picked up the slack.

 

 

Lack of xenos pov? Dear brother Kol, might I introduce you to the specicide that was the Great Crusade? :P

 

There aren't xenos pov because we killed most of them lol

 

 

 

As Brother Wade has prophetically put it: ahem "ALL SHALL BE CODEX COMPLIANT TILL EVERYONE IS AN ULTRAMARINE!!! EVEN THE TRAITOR LEGIONS!"

 

 

or something like that

[Kol Saresk]

lol, my point was that the focus of the Horus Heresy is the Astartes Legions. Even the Mechanicum, Titans and Imperial Army sort of take a backseat. The xenos even more so since they aren't integral to the conflict. If they appear, it isn't because of some overall plot/storyline(unless its a campaign of extermination) but because the Imperial Hounds caught a scent and are chasing it down. Which is radically different from 40K where the xenos pov is just as viable and important as the human/daemon one.

[depthcharge12]

An Imperial Army story by Dan Abnett would be awesome.

 

 

He could return to his roots and still have limitless areas to explore from an unaugmented human's pov.

 

 

 

Maybe krieg before or during their atomic purging?

[Scribe]

There are a lot of things messed up right now in 40K, from some of the rules, to the support (or lack thereof) of any faction that cannot claim a spiritual liege, to the torrid pace of releases leaving everything in a state of flux.

 

The setting (40K) itself is still solid, and great stories can come from it, but its lost its bite, while the 30K setting has picked it up. Its a case of whats more tragic, the outcome of the betrayal, or witnessing it all fall apart before our eyes?

 

Ultimately the setting is not one of hope, even he God of Hope in 30K/40K will intentionally screw up its plans. 40K has lost sight of that, especially GW proper, while the FW and BL teams keep fighting to keep hopelessness and absurdity in. Insert GrimDark rant here.

 

Right now, with its more focused rules set, 30K has it all. The models, the rules, the fluff, and the feel, that all pull the right strings for this guy, and so it is that I empty my wallet upon the alter of the resin gods every couple of weeks...

[AlabasterKnight]

Kol_Saresk, on 04 Dec 2013 - 16:15, said:

Well, 40K is limited by how it is able to expand. It can only expand backwards, or be filled up. ...

So where once 40K was something of a blank canvas that was slowly being built upon, it has all pretty much been painted over and then quartered, restricting just how much volume can be filled.

I was thinking about this for a great while last evening.

40k could expand laterally... here's how...

 

When the Interex are encountered their ships are immense and appear out of nowhere (no warp disruption, no slow materialization: MASSIVE ships that just poof appear!). Impressive enough that the 63rd expedition doesn't engage in ship to ship with these xenos, but rather finds a society that has deceptively better tech, rival if not better martial prowess, has already defeated and contained Chaos, and have enough humility to living peacefully with xenos whom they respect and quarantine xenos they realize are simply a part of nature...

 

So, later Horus orders their destruction and we learned that there are a couple dozen worlds this society encompasses according to Imperial forces reports.... which were shortly after derailed from their goal of the Great Crusade's expansion and here begins the Heresy....

 

HMMMMM....

Do I believe that a society with all that going isn't already larger than the few encountered?

NO: I think that Horus encountered the edge of a rival 'empire'. I think that his first brush was with the Invisibles on Messocarreax...

 

Do I believe that because Horus orders it, the expeditions wave their magic wands and somehow now outgun and outfight this civilization?

Ummm, NO: In their first skirmish, they kicked his ass and caused him to retreat back to his fleet to lick his wounds, I think they are on guard and ready for shenanigans.

 

So looking at this, I ask other questions about the setting to explore if that encounter might only be the tip of an iceberg:

 

Do I believe that the Immaterium is the only other dimension out there?

NO: In fact I believe and theorize that there are other dimensions in the 40k which contain beings who are counter to the Chaos Gods, dimensions that are ripe with energies with different implications.

 

Do I believe our galaxy is the stage the setting is limited to?

NO: In fact, as we now have science acknowledging the Milky Way as being a spiral bar, confirming the presence of a dwarf galaxy that has been interacting directly and is in the process of being absorbed by the Milky Way (Sagittarius Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy), hey not to mention the Magellanic Clouds (and we've known about them for years). With the way interstellar travel is currently described, the gulf between us and them is irrelevant anyway.

 

Do I believe that the Emperor is and was the only champion of Order?

NO: But he, in his hubris, probably does believe that.

 

In fact, this is the loophole for expansion right there. I believe he was never meant to use the Warp as his fuel for psychic attunement. The Chaos Gods and their root and energies regard the Emperor as their anathema, so to me it's like the Emperor is a driving a car that runs on diesel intentionally giving it unleaded because he doesn't know any better.

 

Why he wouldn't know any better is the real question. Think about this: It takes ten thousand psykers a day (an outrageous lack of imagination on the part of the original author, imo) to fuel a failing technology to maintain his life force. This so the astronomicon can provide a beacon for navigators and astropaths.

 

To begin with, the Warp was already exposed to the materium and the precedent had been set by those less powerful (Eldar? Old Ones (who are they anyway?), Necrontyr?) to tap its energies. Humans (which regardless of his immortality, the Emperor IS 'human') have this penchant for making the same mistakes over and over again, especially when the lure of power is seductively easy.

 

The Emperor, having never been part of a society that has defeated Chaos and excised it from its society, doesn't know any better than to attempt to use this energy/dimension for his benefit and smugly believe he is above falling to it due to his unique disposition as an immortal and powerful psyker. Does it occur to anyone that it would take psykers to defeat psykers?

 

Bear with me and think this last point: If the Interex had defeated Chaos and removed it from their society, and Chaos strength is in its exploitation of psychic daemonic Warp forces, what source did the Interex psykers tap to defeat them? Those ten thousand psykers are dumping unleaded in a diesel engine. Maybe if they used diesel, they'd get better results?

 

Perhaps the landscape could be far more immense than the current authorship knows, but until they are willing to establish better boundaries, we will be stuck with the ten thousand year gap and that many 'psykers' a day being sacrificed until the story gets too boring to follow anymore.

 

Just so you all know, that rant is a glimpse into about 75 pages of fiction that is written in sparse detail as a potential ideas. I might turn it into manuscript and submit to BL.

I'd like to be as excited about the current state of the game as I am about one narrow part of its fluff. So for now -

 

30k rules.

 

(Just opinion that's this is the current state of the fiction to my mind...)

[marine7312000]

While I don't agree with everything, that is an utterly awesome idea Alabaster. If you ever want someone to proof read your idea, just let me know. I would definitely like to see more.

[Wade Garrett]

If the interex were part of a larger polity it most likely died without any need for the Legiones Astartes to kill it.

 

We're talking about a civilization that encountered a fleet of armored giants led by a Warmaster, suspected they might be Chaos tainted, and then led this fleet straight to their populated worlds!

 

Yes. Clearly this was a faction that understood the scope of the threat posed by the Primordial Annihilator.

[AlabasterKnight]

If the interex were part of a larger polity it most likely died without any need for the Legiones Astartes to kill it.

 

We're talking about a civilization that encountered a fleet of armored giants led by a Warmaster, suspected they might be Chaos tainted, and then led this fleet straight to their populated worlds!

 

Yes. Clearly this was a faction that understood the scope of the threat posed by the Primordial Annihilator.

 

I'd like to like your observation, but it seem unnecessarily flawed on so many levels.

They led their fleet to *a* populated world; if they were part of a larger polity, it is likely that when they first encountered them and prior to leading the Imperials back at all, they likely communicated back to their central structure all that was occurring. Seriously, the reason the Interex appeared form nowhere in the first place is because of the violation of their petting zoo on Murder. So how did the Interex even know that happened?

Then, when treachery was afoot (I would love to have seen Erebus had his nuts squeezed before being torn to pieces for his role in the Heresy) the Interex reaction easily matched the 'giants' (led by their most brilliant warmaster who grossly underestimated the Interex?) in combat and drove them away.

On top of that, they had already dealt with and subdued, remaining vigilant to, the threat posed. It takes an entire Imperial Inquisition to manage that and they still don't have it right after ten thousand years?

 

The fluff leads to many questions that leave possibilities, in my view this is a good thing. But I think those possibilities lie outside the current scope of what our benefactors draw our attention to when they drive this hobby.

 

AK

[Don the Oiler]

"Filling up" 40K doesn't have to bad per se. Badab, Vraks, Armageddon and the Gothic War all have incredibly well written fluff and stories, it's just these one-liners in the codex histories that set stupid things in stone just for the sake of sounding interesing.

"The Imperium fights the Tau on Taros and loses" doesn't nearly do justice to the campaign, so we have to cope with things like Tau and Necron brofists because for all their stupidity, at least their memorable. Then some poor author has to find a way to write an interesting novella with a presetting like "Sicarius gets humbled at planet xyz".