30k or 40k?

[Marshal Rohr]

40k has become devoid of any story telling value. What kind of story about 100 marines led by a maverick captain to stop some Xenos plot by killing its leader can compare with, you know, 50,000 legionaries led by a Primarch in the largest space battle on the eastern fringe? Who cares if some Inquisitor foils the plot of a heretic cell when compared to Horus convincing whole sectors to rise up against Imperial Tyranny?

 

No one really cares about the late Roman Empire because it was losing. Everyone loves Caesar and Augustus because of what they did to build an empire. They may say they won't touch the Great Crusade but as the Heresy fan base grows I wouldn't be surprised to see a single book come out with how to represent you Xenos empire.

[Kol Saresk]

I liked the barbarians burning down the Roman Empire..... Then again, the Heresy is the barbarians burning down Rome.

[Wade Garrett]

You guys are crazy. Remember that Roman empire towards the end that died in the arena fighting an Australian gladiator, also there were tigers?

 

THAT WAS AWESOME!

[depthcharge12]

You guys are crazy. Remember that Roman empire towards the end that died in the arena fighting an Australian gladiator, also there were tigers?

 

THAT WAS AWESOME!

 

 

RUSSEL CROWE = ANGRON

 

 

 

 

fact.

[AlabasterKnight]

 

You guys are crazy. Remember that Roman empire towards the end that died in the arena fighting an Australian gladiator, also there were tigers?

 

THAT WAS AWESOME!

 

 

RUSSEL CROWE = ANGRON

 

 

 

 

fact.

Tooooo funny :D

 

btw - my suggestions noted earlier are more close to actually portraying another human-based empire that happens to cooperate with some xenos they've encountered.

Fan fluff, which I'm thinking of posting in homebrew, suggests that the Imperial Truth was an overcorrection from a God-like man who meant well. He was correct to not want to be worshipped, but his weakness of being too superhuman to maintain his human self-identification and show empathy with those he meant to rule was utterly exploited by his dimensional enemies. At every turn, he played into his enemies hands by forgetting that his sons were raised in human environments and their psyches contained fragile human needs. He alienated them, publically humiliated them and did nothing to second guess his own hubris. He was in every respect a poor parent.

 

But the real punchline to me is that the conclusion points to the Ruinous Powers knowing of this weakness of him not being able to look past human weakness (especially in his sons!)prior to scattering the Primarch babes. Chaos likely knew that if Primarchs imprinted human emotions, they would be able to be manipulated; raised by the Emperor and they would have been just like him.

 

This was the key to causing the Heresy and doing all they could before the Actual Truth could be uncovered (the knowledge of how the Interex defeated Kaos!) to show all the materium sentients the Achilles Heel of Chaos (which is the secret ingredient to a better game setting in my opinion).

 

And the Ruinous powers succeeded big. 10,000 years have been spent in the sickness treating the symptoms using old medicines... and no one is developing a 'cure' (fostering protagonists that have real value).

 

We'll see how it goes. ;)

[Wade Garrett]

There was a Primarch who was raised by the Emperor, though. His name was Horus.

[AlabasterKnight]

There was a Primarch who was raised by the Emperor, though. His name was Horus.

 

That's a possibility and not conclusive either.

From the Wikia...

"Contradiction and omission tarnishes all accounts of Horus' formative years. It is clear that the Emperor did find Horus and also that he took command of the XVI Legion early in the Great Crusade. Beyond these manifest facts, agreement between the early Imperial sources is decidedly lacking, some even placing Horus on Cthonia as a foundling..."

 

and this quote from that source is most telling:

"While happy that he would soon meet one of his brothers, Horus swore to himself that he would always remain the Emperor's favoured child."

 

But, Wade, I believe you are correct that he probably had a lot more guidance from the Emperor first.

[Kol Saresk]

Wikia is............. Let's just say that a lot of stuff finds its way onto the Wiki and it takes too much effort to remove it. So, be careful.

 

And going by Horus Rising, according to Horus(and since its heard from someone else's POV, it is essentially secondhand information), its both. He was on Cthonia long enough to consider himself Cthonian but also spent so much time with the Emperor that he considers himself raised by Him and Loken once even thought "Horus spoke Cthonian like a native"(paraphrased). Basically, he had been to Cthonia, but considers himself Emperor-raised.

 

Provided that you go by Horus Rising.

[AlabasterKnight]

I consider the BL Heresy books reliable sources. And I agree: Always research what the Wikia says without going by it blindly.

All in all, I'm having fun with theory and who knows what can happen?

[GhostMalone]

Australia what can I say were just bred to be awesome ;)

[Zincite]

I feel 30K is a little bland, actually, compared to 40K. It makes a great storyline, but it doesn't have the 'universe' feel of 40K yet and I'm not sure I could stick with a 30K army for long.

 

Beyond that, 30K is flippin' expensive with no get-arounds.

 

*Glances around*

 

*Flees*

[Kol Saresk]

I feel 30K is a little bland, actually, compared to 40K. It makes a great storyline, but it doesn't have the 'universe' feel of 40K yet and I'm not sure I could stick with a 30K army for long.

 

Beyond that, 30K is flippin' expensive with no get-arounds.

 

*Glances around*

 

*Flees*

I actually agree. Bland isn't the word I would use though. In my opinion(for whatever value that has), the Heresy has no place for anything outside the Imperium and Chaos. It is the original fight. This is the event that creates 40K and as such, it should be a singular event. And even though it spans the breadth and width of the Imperium and then some, it should not be filled with xenos encounters. The Great Crusade should feature them to a significant extent since part of its purpose is uniting the Imperium in the face of all enemies, both human and otherwise, but the Heresy itself is..... specific in its scope.

[Don the Oiler]

Even if it wasn't mainly about the Heresy but, say, the Great Crusade, i think xenos don't show enough "contrast" to their 40k counterparts so far to make them interesting enough. Orks are Orks, Eldar are Eldar, Tau and 'Nids weren't there and Necrons would only be seen very rarely if at all.

Now there were some attempts to make some of the newly encountered races quite unique and interesting, but they all were annihilated at once so who would want to field them?

[GhostMalone]

It's the battle for humanity, afterwards humanity is devastated and a shadow of it's former glory slowly degrading and becoming a target for xenos who were on the verge of extinction.

 

The heresy is like a Greek tragedy

The pre 6th ed 40k was us holding on and trying to avoid annihilation by any means necessary

[Zincite]

Bland isn't the word I would use though. [...] the Heresy itself is..... specific in its scope.

That's a better word, well said. Sorry. 'Bland' is one of my fall-back words.

Now there were some attempts to make some of the newly encountered races quite unique and interesting, but they all were annihilated at once so who would want to field them?

Make-your-own-xenos rules could be fun, and that'd allow you to either replicate the background races or make your own, ready-to-be-annihilated, race up. A rough template with generic options ('Shield generator' 'Advanced scopes') available, allowing you to customize it to suit your preferences. Like how 'Nidz are, particularly in the last codex.

 

Although I agree it's unlikely to happen in whatever form.

[Xwingt65]

30k for the awesome Legion army list. The new space marine codex is a massive disapointment. Bland, boring and sooo lacking in effort to make it interesting.

 

I miss the xenos races though in 30k. Would be interesting to see what an ork list or an eldar list would look like.

[depthcharge12]

I want those gecko dudes from Gaunts ghosts that have the waist mounted blasters.

 

 

 

Plus blood pact gets stuff done.

[Kol Saresk]

But the Blood Pact can't exist until after the Heresy since they were created by Urlock Gaur, a Chaos Marine.

[Marshal Rohr]

It would be cool to see an early great crusade Eldar army before they invented the paths or went all Clive barker. It would be awesome to seen some seriously powerful Eldar holdout pocket that wasn't afraid to get down and dirty in a fight. It would also be interesting to see one of the ork master races like at Ullanor. Not the ridiculous cockney space apes, but a lethal empire of pure warriors.

[SpecialIssue]

I don't understand why those concepts simply can't be transplanted into 40k tbh, or the vast period between the Heresy and 40k. The largest war fought with Orks ever occurred in M32 if I'm not mistaken (with some pretty awe-inspiring yet limited fluff to go with it). Guilliman's reorganisation doesn't mean the grand xenocidal campaigns of old aren't happening any more. The Imperium has expanded (as well as contracted) many times during the intervening years, and countless races have been exterminated by Mankind since.

 

The Heresy is a great narrative and stage-setter for 40k, and indeed caters for those who want good re-enactment/'historical' gameplay or those who just like Imperial stuff. If GW could bring the same grittiness and faction design quality to 40k, then it would regain its stature as a setting that inspires creativity with a variety of different races; without diluting the human-centric tragedy of the Heresy, or the glorious, one-sided romp of the Great Crusade.

 

Also, what's wrong with the Paths? Besides, pretty sure that many of the Eldar craftworlds had invented the paths by 30k, since many of them which did escape the Eye left many years before the Fall.

[Marshal Rohr]

The dying race idea is ridiculous. By the end of the Crusade Slaanesh was what? Barely 200 years old. The Eldar empire stretched across the whole galaxy. The BS pseudo-bushido crap the GW design team peddles for Eldar is fine in the black hole of rot that is 40K, but for the Great Crusade Era, the Eldar need to be bigger, better, grittier, and more Imperialistic. Like the elves from Skyrim or something. Orks need the same treatment. The races of 40k are ridiculously absurd. The races of 30K should deliver the same gritty, realism as the rest of the 30K background. 

[Kol Saresk]

The thing about the Eldar was that the Fall was catastrophic. The Craftworlds were made to escape that fate with the promise of the Paths while the Dark Eldar who didn't want to give up their decadence and lifestyles became the Dark and others became either the Exodite or Harlequinns. Right now, they're pretty much a dying race. But they aren't as far gone as they are in 40K.

 

For example, Iyanden isn't a flying tomb world. Some craftworld are still flying around. And I think the Dark Reapers aren't in existence yet because that one Craftworld hasn't been trapped in the Eye yet. Asdrubael Vect isn't in charge yet and the Exodites probably aren't as accustomed to their "Amish" lifestyle.

 

It'd be like when Alexander died and his generals turned on each other.

[Scribe]

The death of the eldar race, is more the death of its ideals, and its ability to function as it once could. Essentially, if the DE could live in real space and rock out, they would not be a dying race. If their people didnt get stuck on paths, they wouldnt be a dying race.

[Kol Saresk]

If they hadn't created Slaanesh, they wouldn't be a dying race. Everything else came from that single moment because rather than face what they created, they ran from it.

[Conn Eremon]

About the Eldar, the Exodites were the first to leave, long before the actual Fall, while the Craftworlders were leaving from that point all the way up to the Fall. There is a potentially thousand or so years of play, there.

 

Though yes, things would be different. More Craftworlds, in a better state. Dark Eldar are fractured, without any central leadership. Exodites . . . Well, I don't see them varying so much. More Maiden Worlds, maybe? They are definitely in a more powerful, albeit raw, vulnerable, state than in 40k.

 

Edit: And you can't blame them running. Dying race is better than dead race, which would have been the alternative.