Terminator TH/SS or Deathwing Knights

[Neomagicwarrior]

Hey there! Relatively new to 40k (but not wargaming), so I may be missing something obvious here.

AsI am reading through army lists, I see a lot of Terminator squads outfitted with TH/SS. Why would someone choose them over Deathwing Knights? (with the exception of HQ's that allow Terminators as troop choices)

[Master Sheol]

I Like better DWK even if TH has a better AP...

DWK strike at I with a good S6 they have AP4 and AP3 vs CSM they have WS5 Precision strike they get R5 if packed (when you come in DS or when you are in CC you are Always base2base) they have hammer of wrath in charge their Champions has A3 with a AP3 weapon AP2 vs CSM... And one turn per match you have the smite mode... And trust me in 5/6 turns you have just one turn or two of CC with that though unit/IC...

And in addition if you equip DWTS with TH/SS you lose Your precious abilities you pay 4 points per model...

[SnaRf.za]

The only reason I ever play TH/SS over the DWK's is when I need scoring units.

 

Something I used to do was to run 4 squads of DWT.

3 squads would consist of 2 x TH/SS, CML, PF and 1 squad would be 10-man with 3 TH/SS, PF, Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon

 

What I have found is that I tend to lose 4 - 6 of the DWT in the 10-man squad directly after they land and that they just did not do enough damage when they land.

 

So, lately I've been running: 10-man DWK, 2 of the above mentioned DWT squads and 2 DWT squads with CML, TH/SS, Belial and a 5-man Dev Squad with Lascannon & 3 x Missiles with Flakk

 

I put the 2 cheap DWT squads and the Dev's on the table (with as little LoS from the enemy as possible) when I deploy and deepstrike the other 4 on Turn 2.

 

The idea being a solid back field consisting of 10 DWT and 5 Devs that can fling 8 Missiles and a Lascannon 48" and *might* be able to threaten flyers.

I try to park the 2 back field DWT's on my home objective(s) and the 2 forward DWT's on objectives as well.

Then I push Belial and the 10DWK's into the opponent's face and force him to deal with them.

 

A 13 wound, T5,2+,3++ unit means that they will be taking a LOT of fire from the enemy.

 

But every shot at the DWK's is a shot not going to my scoring DWT's.

If the unit makes it past the turn they land, they are generally in combat until turn 4 or 5.

 

It aint perfect by any measure, but it's a helluva lot of fun :)

[SvenONE]

DWK have great fluff and have the Rule of Cool.  They look awesome.  As units they're also still good.  People will poo-poo on them because of the AP4/AP3 (KM) and it's a valid argument considering we've been enjoying the power of thunder hammers for so long.  But Hammer of Wrath, the T5 boost, attacking at initiative and smite mode ARE pretty good.  I field them a lot in my lists and smite mode has never let me down.  People who don't use them enough forget they also have precision strikes, which is particularly fun for smite mode, even if the wound gets LOSed, it's still an extra roll that a normal TH/SS terminator wouldn't get.

 

Their biggest issue is delivery and the fact that you can't strap a CML on their back like a normal squad of terminators (who can also be made troops).  I don't think AP4 is as bad as everyone says it is against MEQs when you're still wounding on 2s.  Plenty of armies have low AP weaponry but pump volume and do ok.

 

I'm currently using a full 10 man squad of them in a fluffy terminator chaplain list which has been turning out to be a half decent list so far.

 

They're also tough tarpitters, I once tied up Mephiston for 5 turns while I cleaned up the rest of the BA army.

[Frater Cornelius]

DWK are meh after their s10 hit. TH/SS TDA perform more consistently and can take cyclone. Knights are good to kill one unit/big model. So, what do you want. Consistent unit with possible ranged attack or to get a burst mode unit?

[[TA]Typher]

DWK are meh after their s10 hit. TH/SS TDA perform more consistently and can take cyclone. Knights are good to kill one unit/big model. So, what do you want. Consistent unit with possible ranged attack or to get a burst mode unit?

 

I think this is a good summation of the issue. There is more to it then that however.

 

Against certain enemies the Knights do better (IE: I3 or less and AP4 or more). Orks, basic fire warriors or non-mech guard come to mind. They also come in handy if you are footslogging your other terms across the board. If your opponent has little to no templates you can basically make anything with the inner circle rule T5 as it marches across the board. like I showed in the tactics if you have a unit of DWT in base contact with a unit of Knights then both units are T5.

 

I've never fielded more than 7 DWKs in a unit, as their one time use maces are really overkill past a 6 man unit. If you've read the Deathwing:Tactica you'll remember that a 5 man DWK unit does 5 wounds on average to a Wraithknight. This number increases to 6+ (enough to kill it) when you add a Lib or a chaplain. With the Wraithknight being one of the toughest units in the game you really shouldn't need more DWK than that unless you think you'll lose some to attrition before they reach their target (IE: footslogging them). Unless you meet one of the criteria I've mentioned above your DWT should perform either better or at least equal to the DWK. With the addition of a Heavy weapon and the potential to be scoring the DWT's pull ahead in usefulness. T5 is great, but against blast weapons you'll take more hits than the DWT would take spaced out. a Thunderfire cannon alone will force hordes of saves and even with t5 you will lose more models. Against things like a Wraitknight's Suncannon (Blast, AP2) the DWKs will take more undoubtedly take more wounds than the DWTs.

 

Don't get me wrong I think Knights are awesome. but they have their place. I tend to think of them as a cruise missile. Load them in a LR and fire it at whatever needs to die. After that whatever they do is a bonus. Against certain enemies (AP4 or more) they will still serve a good purpose as they will do consistent damage. Against MEQs their perfomance sufferes and they become more of a tarpit unit after they have completed their main goal. Sure they can still do damage against these units, but it's not always reliable, like a TH/SS would be.

 

With the addition of being scoring (with certain HQs) and a heavy weapon the DWT are usually better in a all-comers list.

[march10k]

DWK aren't saddled with a power sword and stombolter sergeant.

 

And the "burst" argument is shaky when you're not going to be in more than two combats per game...combat itself is "burst." Besides, how many turns of smite do you need in the average game?  You can't compare one turn of smite to six turns of S8 AP2 because thunderhammers don't get six turns of S8 AP2, they spend most of the game not being swung at all!  The only time that thunderhammers are measurably better is when you are facing MEQs AND you get into multiple melees.  Unless the MEQs in question are CSM, in which case the knights are back on top.

[FerociousBeast]

Cyclone, troops, and if you expect to face a lot of choppy monstrous creatures. Those are the reasons to field TH/SS squads.

[march10k]

you could do what I do...take a crusaderload of each

[Master Avoghai]

I also do think that S6AP4 with only one turn of smite is strong enough, even against Meq and particularly with the "you can't hide" special rule, that allow you to saturate an hidden PF.

 

Paradoxaly, DWK are less interesting in DW armies rather than green or RW army.

 

Reason is the low models count make the number of scoring units crucial.(that's why you rarely see command squads)

Moreover this low model count also make rarer the heavy weapons.

 

On the opposite, DWK are very useful in RW army where every single model has a beacon

The greenwing already can field devastator, tactical HW so you rather need a CC breaking unit rather than another shooting platform...

 

Both already have several scoring units hence this aspect is less crucial.

[march10k]

Funny you should bring up command squads. I think in a deathwing list, there's room for 0-1 non-scoring squads. I think the biggest reason that you so rarely see command squads is that DWK, for all their faults, are better than a command squad in the context of an all-terminator list. The only exception is an all-footslogging list, where the standard of fortitude is a good idea...but that's pretty terrible list, and it might actually have room for both a command squad and knights anyway. But with one thundernator squad and one knight squad side by side, you always have the right tool for every job.

[FerociousBeast]

Of course, with just a couple Scout squads, you can easily afford to bring more non scoring Terminator squads. A lot of the challenges with wing lists in the Dark Angel codex are self-imposed.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

That is true, but Deathwing and Ravenwing armies are iconic Dark Angels, and probably the thing that attracted me to the army in 2nd edition, although I didn't start an army then.

 

I'm quite liking the idea of a Greenwing army at the moment, but so many models...