facmanpob Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 I just can't find the answer... Is this formation considered as a flyers squadron or are the 3 flyers totally independent once they entered from reserve?It follows the normal Escort rules from Codex: Space Marines, with the exception that both of the Talons are considered to be escorting the Raven. Once they have entered the board then they are considered as entirely separate units. I still think this doesn't solve problems. You're still obligated to spend a huge chunk of points in AA (specially in 1500 points games) when ust 1 or 2 assets should be enough. So you get a decent AA, but that leaves the list weak in other departments. In my mind, planes chasing planes, specially with reserve rolls involved is still not a good enough solution for AA.This isn't just about AA though. the Raven and Talons are also excellent anti-vehicle killers, especially as they all get the Strafing Run rule whilst both Talons are alive. I agree that at 1500 it may be a bit much, but at 1850 its an excellent formation I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 I suppose the question for me is whether I would ever play a game with formations in. I mostly get to play pick-ups nowadays which are unlikely to include anything... unusual. I do like the formation though. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted December 6, 2013 Author Share Posted December 6, 2013 While I think you're right about the AA still not being solved (Concemptor Mortis Dread is kinda the best anyway) for the out-of-the-box codex, I don't think the point investment is that outrageous. It's a lot of points but you're going to bring in 400+ points on one roll and a decent amount of firepower, especially in comparison to going just to the DA codex for that. I think it's a way of getting fliers in your list as guilt free as possible while cutting the corners of bringing an ally and your compulsory HQ and troop slot. Just off the top of my head this looks like it would fit well into a 2,000 point Azrael/Banner/Tactical list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Hmmm, I suddenly had a thought that Codex:SM players could take a HS SRaven and a FA STalon, plus this Stormwing formation, for about 750 points, and load them up with 2 Centurion units and Dreadnoughts for another 650 or so, leaving enough points for HQ and troop choices.... Scary beans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imustbedreamin Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 as a complete newbie (yet to play his first game) I have no idea what the majority of this thread means.....the abbreviations especially. however there is one thing........the thought of a ravenwing storm raven with a nephilim either side gives me a makes me very excited. just thought i would share this important information.....carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Only way you could use nephilims in this is to make them counts as storm talons which is easy to do as far as conversions go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 At first I was really excited about this, but then I decided not to give in to the temptation of Vanilla. I think the formation is really cool, but I now think the Storm Raven and Storm Talon really don't fit into the DA aesthetic or even serve a purpose (I'm still having a hard time thinking of forming alliances with other Marines). I will admit that if the rumour of a Centurion formation comes true, I would be more inclined to that... I think they fit the Unforgiven a little better. It really is a good deal, money wise, which is a nice surprise from GW. Just 2 cents from a cat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 So...what's the legality of using them? Do the fall into the army book supplement (like farside for tau) category, or into the "allied contingent above and beyond the usual limit of one" category, like inquisitors, or are they treated the same as IA units (like repressors for sisters), or what? In any case, I can see TOs disallowing them early and often...and in casual play, I'd say "sure, you can bring that detachment. Do you like my pair of thunderbolts?"The legality is the same as any other 40k unit... don't like 3 Heldrake spam lists? don't play the dude.... don't like Tau Firebase Cadre concept? don't play the dude....They are a separate formation from Codex:SM. So, as the DA are Battle Brothers with Codex:SM, we can cast psychic powers and do all of the normal things that we can do with Codex SM.EDIT - Specifically, it has a rule called Independent Formation which explains that it is possible for Codex:SM units to embark on the Storm Raven from the beginning of the game or during, but the formation does not benefit from the Chapter Tactics rule ...so the same legality as my thunderbolts, then. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmachu Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 At first I was really excited about this, but then I decided not to give in to the temptation of Vanilla. I think the formation is really cool, but I now think the Storm Raven and Storm Talon really don't fit into the DA aesthetic or even serve a purpose (I'm still having a hard time thinking of forming alliances with other Marines). I will admit that if the rumour of a Centurion formation comes true, I would be more inclined to that... I think they fit the Unforgiven a little better. It really is a good deal, money wise, which is a nice surprise from GW. Just 2 cents from a cat.... Are centurions really worth it? Deathwing and knights seem to be a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 If nothing else, the name of the formation ties into the Stormwing of the Dark Angels Legion mentioned in 'The Unremembered Empire'. Granted, that could be a tenuous tie at best: said 'Wing' would seem to refer to Assault Marines of some sort (the ones seen in that novel fight with boarding shields aboard a starship), but the Stormraven can carry an Assault Squad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 I'm not 100% sure how Centurion Squads are set up, but I think as a robust Devastator type squad they could be fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adper Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Honestly I am surprised this hasn't been talked about in here, unless I missed it, in which case I apologize for making this post. Has anyone used this formation in a game, and did it prove worthwhile? I don't own the data slate but from what i understand from other post is that it can be taken by anyone who can be allies with Space Marines. I have been toying with the idea of using this formation as my heavy support in a Deathwing/Ravenwing Army list. But seeing as how I have never used the units or even played against them (Small Gaming Group), I don't want to blow the money buying the rules and units to find out that they where sub par only to never use them again. Your thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 We the lion have fearsome Nephilim and Dark Talon, We need no Storm Ravens nor Storm Talons... What i can tell you: Storm Ravens are real pain in the behind unless you have some preparedness against it. AV12 makes dropping one down with s7 weapons real pain. That means lascannons with skyfire, Flyers with s8 or s9 weapons or something with rending. You can pretty much ignore Stormtalons, ignoring properly equipped StormRaven is nigh impossible. But that is my limited experience. What try to say is: Raven alone most likely is enough for the allies detachment. Especially when playing against small and most likely friendly gaming groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 it depends who your up vs I'd think. If your facing Chaos with 3+ chickens on the board, then yea it would be good. Tau could likely kill all 3 of them the turn they come into the board before you can shoot (unless you make sure your movement ends with you outside LOS, negating your 2nd turn shoots). I'm not a big fan of fliers with DA in general. We can do most things well without it and take down most fliers without lots of trouble (lots of div and twin linked stuff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I use it in two games now. In first it destroyed SM Captain on bike + command squad and a Firestorm redoubt. In second it take out a couple hullpoints from wave serpents, crimson hunter, killed some warp spiders. I like this formation. It costs 450 and gives us good AA. And it shoots to ground targets with bs5 - all of them, even Stormraven. Perfect addition to Dark Angels force. And it is beautiful model-wise. I plan to use it as white-bone Deathwing Stormraven escorted by black Ravenwing Nephilims (count-as Talons). Thematic, powerful, nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 If it seems new stuff haven't been discussed here, it's because you didn't look so good.. I merged the two threads together for easiness of persusal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The formation makes me willing to convert additional weapons in order to play my dark talons as count as storm talons... Just hesitate to buy a storm raven that I can't use for its transport capacity... When I can get the storm eagle. Transport capacity is something I find very annoying because it allows units from codex SM to embark but units from the codex BA can't... Totally irrelevant when BA can have storm raven since the beginning and are described to use this formation : « Blood Angels employ a similar tactic, though they fill the gunship’s hold with the battle-thirsty warriors of the Death Company and its rear-mounted mag-vice with a Death Company Dreadnought. »It should have been given the possibility to embark all kind of space marines... Wouldn't have been too much IMO when you see the compulsory base investment (320pts for the minimum combo...) I like this formation. It costs 450 and gives us good AA. And it shoots to ground targets with bs5 - all of them, even Stormraven Perfect addition to Dark Angels force. IIRC antigrav and flyers (wether they are hoovering or not) cannot suffer strafing run shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 I think I mentioned it above in one of my original thoughts that it obviates the need for stationary heavy support like devastators or a land raider (though bringing a LR is never a bad idea). I wouldn't even consider the cost a drawback for what you're getting (and that's in relation to what we could get out of our own codex). In a high point game with a RW/Drop pod army you'll be pretty in the face of your opponent pretty early. I also say don't bother converting your RW flyers aside from maybe magnetizing weapons somehow (mine are already glued so I'm not going to bother), just make that stormraven a badass looking RW flyer, maybe put the darkshroud icon on it somewhere. I still don't have a Stormraven, not sure if I will anytime soon since the next 2 tournaments I'm in aren't allowing dataslates (for now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adper Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Doesn't "Death From the Skies" give the Stormraven and Stormtalon additional flyer rules as well? Would this formation be able to use those rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro X Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 It gives us flying ace for 50 points. Not that awe so.e. plus you roll on a chart an it can do other things. Not sure how many people use it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 How does this work? I am guessing you need to take SM as allies first of all correct? So you will need a SM HQ and a troop choice, correct? Then you need to take one of their flyers. I thought you could only take one flyer. Does this formation have more than one flyer? If so, I thought you could only take one ally flyer. Don't play anymore, just getting back into it. So all this is new to me again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Starting to stray into dangerous waters here. Can I just remind people that asking for rules that you obviously don't have is against forum rules and will earn you a warning, as will answering such a request. So why don't you buy the rules for yourselves and check them out? They don't cost very much and even if you decide you don't want to or can't use them yourself it's still useful reference should you face this formation across the table. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 We still could answer being general : Formations do not occupy any slot. They are external to the armies scheme like fortifications. However they still follow the level of alliance chart. Formations are 2 types : either a fixed number of units (can't have more, can't have less), or a minimum/maximum number of units (like 1-3 unit X) More or less it looks like Apocalypse formations (but smaller) in the way they work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imustbedreamin Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 shame troop transport is not an option but it would appear the da fliers are not really worth it now are they not. The nephilim is still stunning to look at but i dont think i would want to proxy them. i like wysiwyg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Even if i think that all formations are nice (stormwing, reclusium command squad, and so on) i still think that the best solution for DA flyers lies in FW ones... A Fire raptor is a lot better than SR and SE is good like a SR but can transport DA units too... ANd both of them are better good looking than GW ones... About DA flyers... DA has flyers??? I was thinkling that the Nephilim and the Darktalon were just overcosted display models... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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