Armour marks at Terra.

[Excessus]

I don't really feel the urgent need to do an analogy about the armour marks...

[infyrana]

kitwulfen: Interesting update to the analogy - but yep, you spent too much time thinking about it ;)  Though I do like your Mk V analogy - very apt indeed.  Do I dare to ask where the SPR and C8 fit in ? lol

 

Still...

 

Getting back to the point, do we yet have a more 'definitive' answer to the original question posed?  I quote the word as I doubt it exists in truly a single paragraph - and more a collection of works cobbled together than span different mindsets at different times who probably weren't all in the know about the others words.

[GhostMalone]

So istvaan was up to mkIV

after istvaan was up to mkV MKVI

From the silent war I'd safely say mkVI was more prevalent

From the Siege of terra and the segmentum solar campaign (Luna, Saturn, Mars etc) mkVII

 

And MKVIII is a no no

[Excessus]

So istvaan was up to mkIV

after istvaan was mkV

From the silent war I'd safely say mkVI

Siege of terra and the segmentum solar mkVII

 

And MKVIII is a no no

You should add "up to" on all those and not just the first.

[Don the Oiler]

And MKVIII is a no no

 

Technically yes, but since you see pictures of high gorgets on all kinds of armour marks and even covering cabling seems more of a personal preference than armour limitation, even using those wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Personally i think mkVIII doesn't offer enough unique attributes to even qualify for a standalone armour mark, void-hardened mkIV and Sarum helmets look more unique.

Calling it "artificer-crafted mkVII" would have sufficed in my opinion.

[Hyaenidae]

In my personal opinion, Mk VII plate and Godwyn pattern bolters reeks of 40k too much for me, fluff be damned. I could understand a few prototypes getting into the hands of the Legions near the end of the heresy, but only in small bits and pieces. Mk VII should be reserved for the scouring.

Besides, with a little conversion, Mk VI looks great in the colors of the Legions...

[GhostMalone]

^^^that there^^^

Is why mkvii is horrendous and should never be allowed in my opinion

[Veteran Sergeant]

The Raven Guard getting all the Mk VI is a new addition to the background which I'm not especially keen on. According to the older fluff (White Dwarf Compendium from the Rogue Trader era) Mk VI was a stop gap which used those parts of the Mk VII which had been fully developed alongside modified MkIV elements, most notably the helmet. It was widely used during the Siege after manufacturing was shifted there. The old index astartes articles had "pre-heresy" examples of each legion wearing Mk VI, so I'd say it's fine to use. For my money Mk VII in any significant quantity looks too much like a 40k army given how similar the schemes are for the V, VII and IX in both eras.

Yeah, in the original fluff, VI was basically an upgraded MK IV helmet with the first of the next-generation parts, but mass produced quickly.

 

MkVII was basically the final form of Mk VI, with the upgraded chest armor to protect the cabling, better leg armor articulation in the knees (which is what makes the Deathwatch game giving Mk VI legs an agility bonus so funny), and the "final" helmet.

 

 

But it was always at the very end of the Heresy, so Mk VII is probably a bit anachronistic to the Heresy era game.

 

 

It's important to note that the orginal fluff also described II, III and IV as fairly out-dated at the time of the Heresy. V was supposed to be how the Legions were taking their older suits and bringing them up to Mk VI standard. By M32, the older marks would have been all but gone because VI and VII were superior, not because they lost the capability to produce the other versions. It took 10,000 years for the Imperium to decay and lose a lot of its technology. It didn't just happen immediately, hence how Mk VIII was a post-heresy development. Mk VII was the standard after the Heresy because it was the best version.

 

The fluff only changed on that when Forgeworld wanted to sell you the new shiny bits you couldn't buy in plastic. ;)  Fluff started to circulate about MKIV being the best version, but it's ludicrous when you see that it has inflexible chest plates, overlapping cuffs that limit wrist articulation, and exposed cabling, lol. The White Dwarf article (later compiled in the Warhammer 40K Compedium) was the first place the Marks were discussed in detail.

 

Mk VI: Stop-gap, incomplete Next-Gen armor system. Focus on durability and ease of repair. Redundant cabling, improved MKIV helmet.

Mk VII: Finalized Next-Gen armor system. Mostly compatible with MKVI. Finalized Improved MKIV-based helmet. Chest plastron. Better knee articulation.

 

 

I think that what often confuses people is that Mk IV was designed to be the final version of the armor.  But what it is getting at is that the technology progression was:

 

Mk I

Mk II -> Mk III

Mk IV -> VI -> VII -> VIII

 

All VIII is, is the final version of a technology progression that started with IV to make power armor more efficient and durable. Not that IV was the best, and everything else was a compromise. IV was basically the super-expensive beta version. But the development cycles of VI and VII specifically talk about how they were the result of research that provided more durable, and more easily repaired/replaced parts. 

 

Now, which version you think looks best is up to you. The functionality of Mk VII has always appealed to me because I'm a fairly practical sort of guy.

[Tyrannicide]

I agree with most of your comments, Serg, other than Mk. IV chest armor being inflexible. This isn't personally directed toward you, though it got me thinking. 

 

I don't come from and do not claim to be from a historical or military background, but I'll offer this. People tend to look at the torso and leg armor of the Space Marines and talk about how clunky and static it would be to wear. While viewing this through a practical point of view is both difficult and pointless, specific areas like the chest plates and cod armor pieces aren't solid one-piece sections as they appear to be on the models.

 

The cod and butt plate would just be pieces protecting the soft armor of the pelvic area, and would probably be best described as "floating". They're not connected. Same can be said for the chest armor. I imagine it to be an outer shell that rotates and moves over the top of the inner mechanisms and abdominal protection. I know wearing a full suit of armor is incredibly burdensome, but I figure the most advanced suits known to man 28,000 years into the future will have solved some of the complications modern and historical armor suffer from. That said, there's many aspects of each armor mark that make me scratch my head as to why it would be that way. 

[MordentHex]

^^^that there^^^

Is why mkvii is horrendous and should never be allowed in my opinion

Send all of your MK6 to me then brother, i will use and abuse it all!

[infyrana]

I think that quote had Mk 7 in it, not 6.. and yes, send your mk 6 stuff to me, my beakies need more brothers :D

 

As for the plates floating over each other, there's several types including overlapping plates often found on early plate Roman plate, or within brigandine jackets - plates sewn between layers of various material types.  If you had just plates covering areas with gaps, you end up with something like the Storm Trooper armour, in desperate need of filling the gaps or risk damage between plate sections, requiring you to have very good soft shell clothing.  This of course wouldn't stop projectiles damaging you through bruising and blunt trauma etc.

 

As for being cumbersome, when correctly made to fit it isn't.  It does end up shaping your bones when they are limited between movement of stiff metal plates though, as found on remains.  But then, in addition, 500 years ago, waist lines were in a different place due to many reasons including fashion mostly.  Check the most original chest plates including conquistador chest pieces (for something a bit easier to search), they ride high up and designed a specific way for body shape that just wouldn't fit the average stocky built guy of today.

 

So therefore it could be that the SM designs fit their physic some thousands of years into the future just fine :)

 

Either way, too much armour in every location will cause you to walk like you've just stepped off a horse after a very long ride.

[Tyrannicide]

Oh of course, power armor is designed for these genetically enhanced warriors of the future. Space Marines have no problem fighting within it as they're bred to be connected to it with the black carapace interface. Power armor also has auto-sensors that can anticipate and absorb blows and incoming projectiles. On a basic level it's still incredibly advanced. In comparison to this, the armor of today and yesterday is not. 

 

My point being it isn't any easier to fight armored, as opposed to unarmored, and that really can not be disputed.

[Don the Oiler]

In fact, one of the last initiation tests of an adolescent Space Marine during the Crusade was to bend down to his dropped Rhino keys in mkIV plate without stabbing himself in the abdomen with the lower breast plate part.

That was the test that really separated the wheat from the chaff.

[GhostMalone]

"Lowers his knees to the ground then slightly bends and extends hand"

 

I win!

[Veteran Sergeant]

I agree with most of your comments, Serg, other than Mk. IV chest armor being inflexible. This isn't personally directed toward you, though it got me thinking. 

 

I don't come from and do not claim to be from a historical or military background, but I'll offer this. People tend to look at the torso and leg armor of the Space Marines and talk about how clunky and static it would be to wear. While viewing this through a practical point of view is both difficult and pointless, specific areas like the chest plates and cod armor pieces aren't solid one-piece sections as they appear to be on the models.

You quite literally cannot bend over at the waist wearing this:

 

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/SGM-Daly91/Warhammer%2040K/WEAstartes_MkIV.jpg

 

I guess unless there's some hidden joint concealed under the exposed and vulnerable cabling. But that doesn't seem very likely. And since Space Marines are far wider than they are thick, it also limits the ability to rotate at the waist before the lower portion of the torso plate strikes the beltline.

 

You also cannot bend your wrist outward. Which, to say, isn't the most common range of motion, but every once in a while it's important.

 

Ii mean, I hand-wave a ton of stuff when it comes to 40K because it's a universe with floating space cathedrals and magical S&M fetish elves and sentient gods of being angry. But this is just basic physics. You can convince me plasma rifles are possible. I'm willing to accept titans, and vortex grenades, and maybe even Thunderhawk gunships being able to fly just because it's fantastech. But it makes me chuckle trying to imagine Space Marines moving around in Mk IV plate.

[Tyrannicide]

Ah, I see what you mean now.

 

To be honest, I really did think that the extended torso armor was more apart to the abdomen and the chest plate sat on top of it separate. More like the Mk. VIII torso.

 

Huh. Now I feel really stupid. I've been building an army of predominantly Mk. IV armored Astartes, you'd think I'd pay more attention. :P

[infyrana]

Sadly, even in the armour based books both modern and historical, as well as modern made re-production armour by armourers, you will see a lot of faults regarding the way it's worn and designed, the articulation, as well as things that just simply wouldn't work or be practical.

Call it 'artistic license' if you like.

Design and Create what looks call in the fantasy gaming world, then let 'retcon' and 'fantasy' sort the rest.

I would imagine that your unit, Darth Potato, would simply get their armour smith to make the necessary adjustments after their first fitting. I wouldn't worry too much therefore Chop that abdomen panel off, re-attach with appropriate protected hinges, same goes for the full cannon vambraces that restrict wrist movement. That's not even to comment on the massively flat looking feet that must be hell to walk in hehe (which I know are supposed to articulate).

[depthcharge12]

mkIV vambraces specifically reinforced the wrist for a "mkI biotch slap" 

 

 

it was there on pupose you see :P