Projected Void Shields and Holo-fields

[Gentlemanloser]

Which takes effect first?

 

Holo-field;

 

 

Eldar Titan Holo-fields: Before making an Armour Penetration roll, or rolling on the Destroyer Weapon attack table for attacks against this model, the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target or a Holo-field image <snip> Only make Armour Penetration rolls or rolls on the Destroyer Weapon attack table for attacks that hit the target

 

Projected Void Shields;

 

 

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield <snip> Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12. A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse.

 

So if you have to hit the target, the Holo-field should take effect first.

 

Meaning that if an Eldar Revenant Titan has moved, while inside a Projected Void Shield Zone, you have a 50% chance to hit, then you need to take donw the Void Shield.

[Grey Mage]

While it looks like it would be holofield first, though it does say 'for attacks that would hit this model".... and so both holofield and generator would trigger, giving the active player control over wich resolved first.... and no way my opponents going to say 'holofields'.

As a thought.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't think the Voids can trigger before the Holo.  As the voids activate on any attack that hits the target.

 

And you don't know if you hit the target until after the Holo.  On top, you would only be able to make the AP roll against the Void Shield until after the Holo was resolved.

[Grey Mage]

Except you do know you hit, or the holo would never trigger to make it uncertain wether or not you hit- you just dont know *what* you hit. And since either way whatever it is you hit is within the void shields area, youd have to roll on the void shield.

[Gentlemanloser]

GM, the Void is and hits a target.  The Holo rule is must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target.

 

You cannot know if you've hit a target, until you've made the Holo roll.

[Grey Mage]

 

...the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target or a Holo-field image

Either way you certainly hit something.

[Gentlemanloser]

The holo field image is not your target.  If you hit it, you don't hit your target.

 

The Void shield requires you to hit your target.

[Grey Mage]

 

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone

... nope. A target. Not your intended target. Not your original target. Any target will do. Since the holofield rule tells us you can hit the image instead of the titan, apparently its a potential target. Thus void shield would trigger either way.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'll have to wait utnil I can dig out the BRB at home, but doesn't a unit declare thier Target?

 

It's only your Target, if you've declared it as such.

 

I suppose, the counter arguement would be scattering blasts.

 

But I'm still not sure a holofield image would count as a 'target'.

[Grey Mage]

The BRB doesnt matter on this one- because, as you noted things can hit things other than their intended targets *flamers and other template weapons being another example*. Youve quoted both the appropriate rules, and the void shield says "a target" while the holofield rule puts forth that the image can be a thing that is hit- though having no stats, hitting it is normally ineffective.

[Magpie]

My money is on void shield first as any hit ,hits it. The holofield is something that occurs after a hit on a specific model.

 

Ward play on the meaning of "target" isn't relevant.

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, so how about a Blast of Template that hits three units inside a 12" Void Zone?

 

Three 'targets' are hit, does this take down three Void Shields?

[Nusquam]

I would say that if the Titan is inside the void shield that would be hit first. As the shot would physically encounter the shield first.

[Gentlemanloser]

As would any shot that was fired at the 12" area and 'missed'.

 

It would still hit the Void Shield.

 

(Take for example, a blast that scatter and hit nothing, but remained within the 12" Zone.  If we were being, realistic, that would take a Shield down.  But it doesn't.)

[Magpie]

The rule doesn't say that tho'. regardless of how the hit comes about any hit hits a void shield. I don't see what the problem is.

 

As for the blast template hitting multiple units I'd say it doesn't hit multiple units it hits the void shield,once.

[Gentlemanloser]

Exactly Magpie, I was discussing the 'realism' of;

 

 

As the shot would physically encounter the shield first.

 

If you drop a Blast in the Void Zone, realisitically, it would hit the Shield, regardless of there being a unit present there or not.

 

The rule states hitting your target.  And with an Eldar Titan, you don't know if you've hit your target until after the Holo roll.

 

And what about multiple hits?  Do they take down Multiple shields?

[Grey Mage]

You do know you hit a target, because the holofield rule says you do, even when you dont hit the titan.

 

And I see no reason why it wouldnt be done per hit, do you?

[Gentlemanloser]

The Holo-Field Image isn't a 'target'. ;)

 

So a template that covers three units inside a Void Zone would (potentially) take down three Void Shields in a single attack?

 

So if an Eldar Titan dropped 4 large blasts, that all hit three units inside a Void Zone, 12 Void Shields would instantly go down?

 

How about Blasts that hit multiple buildings, or multiple buildings that are part of the same Fortification?

 

Does the Void Shield Generator building itself count as a target, and if hit, would that too take down a Void Shield?

[Brother Casman]

I'm going to borrow these:

Holo-field:

Eldar Titan Holo-fields: Before making an Armour Penetration roll, or rolling on the Destroyer Weapon attack table for attacks against this model, the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target or a Holo-field image <snip> Only make Armour Penetration rolls or rolls on the Destroyer Weapon attack table for attacks that hit the target

 
Projected Void Shields:

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield <snip> Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12. A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse.

Okay, let's step through the rules here. In all cases, let's assume I'm using a lascannon (though it doesn't really matter).

Scenario 1: Vehicle without Titan Holo-fields and without Void Shields (Normal)
To attack (and damage) a vehicle, you roll to hit. If you hit, then you roll to penetrate armour.

Scenario 2: Vehicle with Titan Holo-fields
To attack a vehicle, you roll to hit. If you hit, then you roll again, to see if you actually hit the target or a phantom image. If you hit the target, then you roll to penetrate armour.
NB. Thus, we have an extra step before rolling Armour Penetration. Otherwise, this follows the same rules as normal.

Scenario 3: Vehicle behind an active Void Shield
To attack a vehicle, you roll to hit. If you hit, then you resolve the hit on the void shield - roll to penetrate AV 12.
NB. So, when we hit, we change the target. 

So, given this breakdown, we should be able to build back up to a vehicle protected by both Titan Holo-fields and Void Shields.

Scenario 4: Vehicle with Titan Holo-fields, behind an active Void Shield
To attack a vehicle, you roll to hit. Logically, the next step (if you hit) is to resolve the hit against the Void Shield. Why? Because the Void Shield rules state that instead of resolving the hit against the target, we hit a Void Shield (we change our target). The Titan Holo-fields state that resolving a hit requires an extra step before rolling Armour Penetration (we don't change our target, we may have just missed outright).

So, I would say Void Shields first, then when they're down, Titan Holo-fields.  Hope that's clear! :)
------------------
Blasts should work the same way - Void Shields first, with a single hit.

[Gentlemanloser]

You said it yourself;

 

 

The Titan Holo-fields state that resolving a hit requires an extra step before rolling Armour Penetration

 

You *can't* roll Armour Penetration on a Void Shield, before you roll for the Holofield.

 

Edit:

 

The arguement is whether 'hitting' the Holo-field Image is classed as a 'hit' that triggers a Void Shield.

[Hymirl]

While it looks like it would be holofield first, though it does say 'for attacks that would hit this model".... and so both holofield and generator would trigger, giving the active player control over wich resolved first.... and no way my opponents going to say 'holofields'.

 

As a thought.

I agree, both rules work on the same trigger and get resolved in order of choice, this is the standard for simultaneous actions if there is no clear order.

 

In this case the shooting player gets to pick as its his turn.

[Brother Casman]

You said it yourself;

 

 

The Titan Holo-fields state that resolving a hit requires an extra step before rolling Armour Penetration

 

You *can't* roll Armour Penetration on a Void Shield, before you roll for the Holofield.

 

Edit:

 

The arguement is whether 'hitting' the Holo-field Image is classed as a 'hit' that triggers a Void Shield.

 

It has to be - Titan Holo-fields don't trigger if you miss the target with your initial attack.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nor does the Void Shield...

[Grey Mage]

The Holo-Field Image isn't a 'target'.

So a template that covers three units inside a Void Zone would (potentially) take down three Void Shields in a single attack?

So if an Eldar Titan dropped 4 large blasts, that all hit three units inside a Void Zone, 12 Void Shields would instantly go down?

How about Blasts that hit multiple buildings, or multiple buildings that are part of the same Fortification?

Does the Void Shield Generator building itself count as a target, and if hit, would that too take down a Void Shield?

How can you hit something if it isnt a potential target? The holofield must be a target if it can be hit. I could make a long list of things that you cant hit, and none of them would be targets. I cant think of anything can hit that isnt a target.

What do we do with targets boys? Thats right, we try to hit them, and succeed more often that not with BS:4.

[Brother Casman]

True, GML.  However, Titan Holo-fields aren't some kind of anti-twin-linked, where you re-roll successful hits - if they were, I could see the argument being made for the player's choice which applies. With Titan Holo-fields, if you hit on your initial dice roll, then you roll to see what you hit: the Titan proper, or an image of the Titan. In other words, after your initial to hit roll.  Void Shields come into play on the initial to hit roll - if you hit, then you hit a Void Shield.