Projected Void Shields and Holo-fields

[Gentlemanloser]

But you don't 'hit' the Image.

 

If you hit it, you'd roll to-wound / Armour Penetration.

 

You just ignore shots that 'hit' the Image.  They, in essence, 'miss' the Target you were aiming for (the Titan itself).

 

If you 'hit' the Image, how do you then resolve your attack?

[stinkenheim]

From a fluff viewpoint, the void shield is like a bubble protecting the vehicle.

The shot needs to penetrate the void shield before it can reach the Titan (or it's projection) so logically the order of operations should be...

 

Roll to hit, penetrate void shield, roll to see if you hit the holo field, penetrate armour, resolve damage.

 

But I know most people won't like the fact I'm using fluff to reason out my arguement as it isn't 'RAW' but in 90% of my games any issues are resolved with a dash of logic, fluff a and that rarest of things, common sense lol.

[Gentlemanloser]

Problem is, using that fluff, 'missed' Blasts/Tempaltes/shots should also hit the Void Shield.

 

But they don't.

 

A Blast can be phycially inside the Void Shield zone, and still not effect it in any way.  Which doesn't really help the fluff...

[Brother Casman]

But you don't 'hit' the Image.

 

If you hit it, you'd roll to-wound / Armour Penetration.

 

You just ignore shots that 'hit' the Image. They, in essence, 'miss' the Target you were aiming for (the Titan itself).

 

If you 'hit' the Image, how do you then resolve your attack?

The hits on the image are resolved by being discarded - they have no further effect on the Titan. While they essentially 'miss' this isn't the same as missing outright (by 'failing a BS check' let's call it).

 

If you succeed at your BS check, and there's a Void Shield, you resolve your hits against the shield.

 

If you succeed at your BS check, and there's a Holo-field, then you transform some or all hits into 'misses' (potentially), effectively by rolling another d6 for each hit. You've still succeeded at your BS check, though, so you haven't missed outright.

 

If you succeed at your BS check, and both Void Shield and Holo-fields are in play, you hit the Void Shield instead of your original target. You don't apply the Holo-field 'transform' until the Void Shields are gone. Does that make sense? :)

[Gentlemanloser]

The Void shield doesn't trigger on a sucessful BS check though (or even a successful To-hit roll).

 

You need to hit your target.

 

If you hit the Holo-field, and discard the result as a miss, then you're not hitting anything.

 

Don't forget;

 

 

Only make Armour Penetration rolls or rolls on the Destroyer Weapon attack table for attacks that hit the target

 

The target is the Titan, the Holo-field isn't the target.

 

(As shown by the earlier)

 

 

to see if the attack hit the target or a Holo-field image

 

I want to highlight this.

 

1: We know the Holo Field Image is not a target

 

If it was a target, then you would still roll Armour Penetration/D Weapon Damage Table, even if you 'hit' the Image.

 

2: Void Shield activate when you hit your target

 

 

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target

 

As the Image *cannot* be a target, the Void Shield *cannot* activate if the Image is hit.

 

Therefore the Holo Field roll must come first.

 

;)

[Brother Casman]

Okay, maybe look at it this way:

 

If you fire at a Titan behind Holo-fields, then the Holo-fields effectively say "Maybe you hit the Titan... maybe you didn't.  Better roll another d6 to find out."  There's still a chance to hit the Titan.

 

If you fire at a Titan (or indeed, anything) behind Void Shields, then the Void Shields effectively say "You didn't hit the Titan. You hit me instead."  There is no chance to hit the Titan (while the shields are still active, of course).

 

If there is no chance to hit the Titan, then the Holo-fields cannot activate.

 

Therefore, the Void Shields come first. ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

While that would be a real world interpretation, that's sadly not the rules.

 

And again, if that interpretation was to work, then Blasts that landed inside the Zone, but missed every unit shot at, would still take a Shield down.

 

They don't and *cannot*.

 

This real world look at the function of Void Shields just doesn't translate into game terms.

[Brother Casman]

Well, we've reached the point where I'd suggest a dice-off.  I still think that Void Shields are resolved logically prior to Holo-fields, but it doesn't look like I can convince you of that. I'll bow out for now. :)

[alex567]

I'd be inclined to say that the void shield come first, as the void shield sais, "any shooting attack that originates from outside a void shield zone and hits a target within a void shield instead hits the projected void shield", reading this sounds like it occurs strait away, so as soon has the dice has stopped rolling and a successful  hit has been made. At this point the hit is considered successful therefore a successful hit.  where as the titan holo field sais, "before making an armour penetration role or rolling on the destroyer weapon table for attacks against this model", which means that at can happen any time before the penetration role or after the hit has occurred. This doesn't say immediate to me, and immediate comes before any time.

 

So at the point after the roll to hit the hit is successful and Thetford shield takes president. just the way I would argue it.

[Grey Mage]

The Void shield doesn't trigger on a sucessful BS check though (or even a successful To-hit roll).

 

You need to hit your target.

No. You need to hit A target. Any one will do.

[Gentlemanloser]

GM, I'll point you back to the Holo rules;

 

 

to see if the attack hit the target or a Holo-field image

 

The Image *cannot* be a target.

 

Or this rule breaks down.

 

OK, BRB stuff on shooting;

 

 

CHOOSE A TARGET

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at.

 

The Titan is the target, the Image is not.

 

 

THE SHOOTING SEQUENCE

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot

2. Choose a Target

3. Roll To Hit

4. Roll To Wound

5. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties

 

If you 'hit' the Image, and don't just 'miss' the Titan, then please explain how you resolve steps 4 & 5.

 

 

Blast & Large Blast

<snip> Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the relevant blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model (see diagram), or its hull if the target is a vehicle.

 

Scattering Blasts;

 

 

. In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line ol sight (or even your own units, or models
locked in combat)

 

No where are other units mentions as "Targets".

 

Target is quite clearly defined in the rules, and a Holo Field Image is *not* a Target.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

The rules for Eldar Titan Holo-Fields specifically state "Before making an armor penetration roll or rolling on the Destroyer Weapon Attack table for attacks against this model, the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target or a holo-field image."

 

Note the bold and underlined portions. You only need to make a Holo-Field roll before you have to make an armor penetration roll on "this model', the Revenant Titan. However, if the Revenant is behind a Void Shield then you'll never make an armor penetration roll against it. You're making armor penetration rolls against the Void Shield, and the Holo-Field doesn't extend out and affect models other than itself. Here's how it would go:

 

Let's say you have a 5-man Devastator Squad with four Lascannons. They target the Revenant Titan, which is behind two Void Shields. All four Space Marines hit. The Space Marines then roll against the Void Shields. They roll to penetrate once, take one Void Shield down, roll to penetrate again, and take a second Void Shield down. The last two Lascannon shots hit the Revenant Titan, as per the rules for Void Shields ("If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead"). That's when you take the Holo-Field into account, and those two shots need to roll 4+ if it moved last turn. One rolls four, one rolls two, so only one Lascannon hits the Revenant Titan, and you roll damage as normal.

 

The Holo-Fields aren't triggered by To Hit rolls, but by Armor Penetration rolls, and those don't occur so long as there're Void Shields inbetween the shooter and the target.

[Gentlemanloser]

They also don't occur if you Miss the Titan due to hitting it's Image.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

In which case the Holo-Fields have done their job.

[Gentlemanloser]

Also, I don't get your point.

 

 

"Before making an armor penetration roll or rolling on the Destroyer Weapon Attack table for attacks against this model

 

The Lascannon is an attack against the Titan, not the Void Shield.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

Doesn't change the fact that, per the rules, you only make that rule before an armor penetration roll on the Revenant. But there will never be an armor penetration roll against the Revenant, because the Void Shield takes the hit instead. The rules specifically state what condition has to happen for the Holo-Field effect to kick in. It has to be before you make an armor penetration role on the Revenant. You're not making an armor penetration roll on the Revenant, therefore no Holo-Field effect.


Read the first bolded section of the part which you just quoted. "Before making an armor penetration roll or rolling on the Destroyer Weapon Attack table...". That's the condition for activating the Holo-Field. That has to happen first. If you're not going to roll on the armor penetration table, then the Holo-Field doesn't come into play. You're not going to roll on the armor penetration table because of the Void Field, which is what's taking the damage, so you get no Holo-Field save.

[Gentlemanloser]

The point still is, the attack is against the Titan, regardless of if you're rolling AP against a Void Shield.

 

You attack the Titan and have to check the Holo roll before *any* AP rolls.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

Where does it say that in the rules? It specifically states what has to occur for the Holo-Field to provide a benefit. What it doesn't say is that "When your opponent scores a hit against this unit, the attacker must roll a d6 to see if the attack hit the target or the holo-field image." If that's what the rule said then you'd be right, but that's not what it says. There's nothing anywhere in the rule making the Holo-Field dependent on the To Hit role. It's dependent on an attack capable of making an armor penetration roll against it. If an attack won't make an armor penetration roll against it, because it's making an armor penetration roll against a Void Shield instead, then the Holo-Field has no effect whatsoever on that particular attack and you resolve the attack as normal against the Void Shield.

[Gentlemanloser]

Where does it say that in the rules?

 

Say what?  That shooting at the unit you have nominated as your Target is an attack?

 

How about;

 

 

A shooting weapon can only be used to make Shooting attacks.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

No, what I mean is where does it say in the Holo-Field rules that the Holo-Field ability is keyed off of a To Hit roll? It doesn't say that. It says it's dependent on an attack which will roll on its armor penetration table. It's incredibly specific about that. But if you target the Revenant and the Void Shield takes the hit, then you're not going to roll on the Revenant's damage table, but are rolling damage against the Void Shield instead. Therefore there is no Holo-Field ability involved. There's only a Holo-Field save when the Revenant itself is about to take damage.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, what I mean is where does it say in the Holo-Field rules that the

Holo-Field ability is keyed off of a To Hit roll? It doesn't say that.

It says it's dependent on an attack which will roll on its armor

penetration table. It's incredibly specific about that.

 

Yes, totally.

 

But what are you doing when you collapse a Void Shield?

 

Making an AP roll for an attack against the Titan.

 

You *cannot* do that before making the Holo roll.

 

 

But if you target the Revenant and the Void Shield takes the hit, then

you're not going to roll on the Revenant's damage table, but are rolling

damage against the Void Shield instead.

 

That's irrelevant.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

"Making an AP roll for an attack against the Titan."

 

Once again, read the rule. It specifically states that it happens when you're making an armor penetration against the model, not something that happens to be in the way. The Void Shield is not the model. It's something else. When you roll for armor penetration, you roll for armor penetration on the Void Shield, not the model. Therefore you don't get a Holo-Field save against a shot which lands on a Void Shield.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm sorry to labour the point, but it's "attack against the Titan"

 

A Lascannon that hits the titan and then rolls AP on the Void Shield is nothing more than an "attack against the Titan".

 

You're adding in an extra clause that the AP roll *must* be against the AV of the Titan for the Holo to trigger.

 

It doesn't.  The rules aren't that specific.

 

The Void Shield isn't its own entity.  It's not a Target.  You can't choose to attack it.

 

You attack the Titan.  The Titan is your target.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

Yet again, reread the entire sentence, beginning with the first half of the sentence. I'm not adding extra clauses. You're just ignoring the clauses that are in the book. Since you keep missing it, let me make it clear.

"Before making AN ARMOR PENETRATION ROLL or rolling on the Destroyer Weapon Attack table FOR ATTACKS AGAINST THIS MODEL..."

It's not just "an attack." You have to be making an armor penetration roll against the Revenant Titan. You're not making an armor penetration roll against it, though, you're making it against a Void Shield. Therefore you don't get a Holo-Field save, because the armor penetration roll has to be on the Revenant itself and nothing else.

Yes, you attack the Titan, but attacking the Titan isn't enough to activate the Holo-Field rule. Your attacks need to make an armor penetration roll against the Revenant. It's not making an armor penetration roll against the Revenant, though. It's making one against the Void Shield.


Now let's go to the Void Shields rule.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

You roll to attack the Revenant. The Holo-Field does nothing to affect this. You hit. At that point the Void Shield rules take over, and the Void Shield instead becomes the target of that attack. You now roll armor penetration on it to see if you bring it down or not. At no point will the Revenant's Holo-Fields affect any of that. It only activates, per the rules, when you're going to make an armor penetration roll against the Revenant, but not only are you not making an armor penetration roll against it, but the attack instead hits another target, and an armor penetration roll is made against that instead.

Let me lay out the steps.

Step 1: Roll to hit target.
Step 2: You hit target.
Step 3: Roll for damage.

That's how it usually goes. The Holo-Field, however, interrupts that space between Step 2 to Step 3. So it goes like so:

Step 1: Roll to hit Revenant Titan.
Step 2: You hit Revenant Titan.
Step 2.5: Make Holo-Field roll.
Step 3: Roll for damage.

When there's a Void Shield, though, you never have that Step 2. It's like this instead.

Step 1: Roll to hit Revenant Titan.
Step 2: You hit Void Shield instead.
Step 3: Roll for damage against Void Shield.

That's it. No Holo-Field save for the Void Shield. The Holo-Field only protects against damage rolls made against itself, not Void Shields.

[Gentlemanloser]

Your attacks need to make an armor penetration roll against the Revenant

 

No, they don't.

 

That's what you're adding.

 

 

and the Void Shield instead becomes the target of that attack

 

No, it doesn't.  You'll have to show some rules to prove you're changing the Target of you attack.