Projected Void Shields and Holo-fields

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

I'm not adding anything. The armor penetration role has to made against that model. That's as clear as day.

 

And I did. Look up. The Void Shield rules specifically state so.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm sorry, but you're ignoring all the BRB rules quotes I've presented.

 

There's nothing more I can say here.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

I'm ignoring nothing. You, however, are ignoring the rules which are directly relevant to this conversation. Both the rules on the Holo-Field, and the rules on the Void Shield. Both of them dispute your argument on their own, nevermind taken together.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'll try one lst time, to make it as concise as possible, using rule quotes. (I'll probably be editing quotes in during this)

 

First, the overall sequence of events.

 

 

THE SHOOTING SEQUENCE

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose a Target
3. Roll To Hit
4. Roll To Wound
5. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties

 

Step 1 isn't under dispute.  Lets assume it's a single Lacannon shot.

 

2: Choose a Target.

 

Here, you chose the target of your Shooting Attack. You nominate the Titan as your Target.

 

The Image cannot be a Target (see Holo rules quote), the Void Shield cannot be a Target.  Other units in the area are also not Targets, even if they could also be hit (see the Blast Rules Quote).

 

Holo Rules;

 

Eldar Titan Holo-fields: Before making an Armour Penetration roll, or
rolling on the Destroyer Weapon attack table for attacks against this
model, the attacker must roll a D6 to see if the attack hit the target
or a Holo-field image <snip> Only make Armour Penetration rolls or
rolls on the Destroyer Weapon attack table for attacks that hit the
target

 

Blast Rules;

 

 

Blast & Large Blast

<snip> Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer

and place the relevant blast marker with its hole entirely over the base
of the target model (see diagram), or its hull if the target is a vehicle.

 

3: Roll To Hit.

 

You roll To Hit the Titan.  If you miss, that's the end.  If you Hit you move on to the next Step.

 

4: Roll To Wound.

 

Here, you make your Armour Penetration roll.

 

*Before* you do so, you need to check to see whether the Titan is 'Hit', as you are not allowed to make any AP rolls prior to this check (see the Holo rules).

If you 'hit' the Image, if is not a Target (it cannot be, your only Target is the Titan - See Holo and Blast rules) then it doesn't trigger the Void Shield (see Void Shield rules).

 

Void Shield;

 

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and
hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected
void shield <snip> Each projected void shield has an Armour Value
of 12. A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer
weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse.

 

If you 'hit' the Titan, you have 'hit' your Target, and you go to make an AP roll versus the Titan.

 

This then Triggers the Void Shield, which triggers when you Hit your Target.

 

The Void Shield Trigger, as your shooting Attack is against the Titan, and the Holo rules allow you to make your AP roll, as you've 'hit' the Titan, and not an Image.

 

Bah, copying the Quotes has broken the formatting of them. /sigh

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

Steps 3 and 4 are where you have it wrong.

 

Step 3: Roll to hit. You hit the Titan. That's when the Void Shield rule activates, dictating that it's hit instead, and not the Titan.

 

Step 4: Roll To Wound/Armor Penetration. The Holo-Field ability is activated by an expected Armor Penetration roll on the Titan. There won't be an Armor Penetration roll on the Titan, though, because the Armor Penetration roll is happening on the Void Shield. Therefore no activation of the Holo-Field rule.

 

The Void Shield rule, which affects Step 3, and the Holo-Field rule, which affects Step 4, BOTH dispute your interpretation of how things happen. 

 

 

This then triggers your Void Shield, which triggers when you Hit the Target.

 

Where in the world did you get THAT idea from?!? There's no where in the rules, either in the rulebook or the Void Shield rules, that places the Void Shield that late into the steps. And after reading your post, you've come up with the most circuitous, torturous logic ever to justify that sequence of events. You're not arguing Rules-As-Written in the slightest.

[Gentlemanloser]

I have quoted the relevant rules, you're not follwing the RAW.

 

We're at an impasse here.

 

Please also quote the sections of rules you're using to back your method.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

I've quoted the sections of the rules repeatedly. They're easy to find because I put them in quotes. I've quoted the portion of the Void Shield rules which dictate that a shooting attack is now directed at it instead of the original target, and I've quoted the portion of the Holo-Field rules which dictate that the Holo-Field only activates when there will be an armor penetration roll against the Revenant Titan itself. You're the one who's not following RAW, which is again, as follows.

 

1) When a successful attack is made against a target in a Void Shield Zone, the Void Shield rules dictate that the attack instead strikes the Void Shield.

 

2) When a successful attack is made against a Revenant Titan, the Holo-Field rules dictate that the armor penetration roll must be made against the model itself, the Revenant Titan, which means that an armor penetration roll on a Void Shield would preclude that possibility.

 

That's RAW.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I've quoted the portion of the Void Shield rules which dictate that a
shooting attack is now directing at it instead of the original target

 

You have not quoted anything to show the Target of the attack has changed.

 

 

and I've quoted the portion of the Holo-Field rules which dictate that
the Holo-Field only activates when there will be an armor penetration
roll against the Revenant Titan itself

 

No, you haven't.

 

An Attack against the Titan.  A Shooting Attack.  The lascannon can roll AP versus the Void Shield *and it's still a shooting attack against the Titan*.

 

You are going to have to show where the Lascannon shot *stops being a shooting attack against the Titan*.

 

And you have not done so.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone INSTEAD HITS THE PROJECTED VOID SHIELD."

- Stronghold Assault

 

The target switches from the Revenant Titan to the Void Shield. Not being able to target the Void Shield by itself doesn't change that.

 

"Before making an ARMOR PENETRATION ROLL... for attacks against THIS MODEL..."

- Escalation

 

The armor penetration roll has to be applied to the model in question, not another effect which intercepted the attack and upon which the armor penetration roll is being made instead. 

 

"When advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."

- Rulebook, Pg. 7

[Gentlemanloser]

 

The target switches from the Revenant Titan to the Void Shield. Not
being able to target the Void Shield by itself doesn't change that.

 

It doesn't change the target of the attack.

 

Much like a scattering blast that hits another unit doesn't change the target either...

 

The AP roll is resolved against the Void Shield, the attack is still against the Titan.

[Chief Librarian Mephiston]

I've demonstrated, repeatedly, that the shooting attack is no longer against the Titan. As well as showing that the Holo-Field only activates when an armor penetration roll is to be made against the Titan itself, and so wouldn't be activated by an armor penetration roll against a Void Shield. Whether you accept it or not doesn't matter, because that's the way it is, both by RAW and RAI.

[Raeven]

 

I've quoted the portion of the Void Shield rules which dictate that a

shooting attack is now directing at it instead of the original target

 

You have not quoted anything to show the Target of the attack has changed.

You are fixated on this one sentence, which means nothing.  The target is the Titan.

 

You cannot activate holoshields without hitting your target.  You cannot activate Void shields without hitting your target.  The target of the attack never changed.  

 

Holo-Shields and Void Shields are basically invulnerable saves made against the hit that was shot at the Titan.  If you missed your target (the titan) you would never activate either shield.

 

Void first then holo.

[alex567]

"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead." This suggests there is a new target, and you are resolving the shooting attack against the new target, meaning it is no longer an attack against the titan but an attack against the void shields thus disputing your claim that it is in fact "still a shooting attack against the titan".

[Gentlemanloser]

I've demonstrated, repeatedly, that the shooting attack is no longer against the Titan.

Actually, I'm going to concede this point.

It's something neither of us have mentioned yet.

If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead.

'Original' Target implies the target of the attack is switched to the Void Shield, and as such, you are correct and the Holo Field can't trigger.

Edit: Ninja'd by Alex!

[Fibonacci]

Doesn't change the fact that, per the rules, you only make that rule before an armor penetration roll on the Revenant. But there will never be an armor penetration roll against the Revenant, because the Void Shield takes the hit instead. The rules specifically state what condition has to happen for the Holo-Field effect to kick in. It has to be before you make an armor penetration role on the Revenant. You're not making an armor penetration roll on the Revenant, therefore no Holo-Field effect.

Just in case anyone is keeping score, this makes the most sense to me.  Voids first, then holo-field. 

 

Or just dice off and move on.  You could finish the game in the time it took to argue this one out.

[Magpie]

As I feared we've fallen into a debate of the semantics of 'target'. How this is possible when the rules says if you hit anything you hit the holofield instead is beyond me.

 

Scattering templates aren't an issue either a miss is a miss and there are a 1000 reasons why a scattering template that hits nothing doesn't hit the shield. A miss can also represent a dud round for example.

 

Should a template scatter and hit multiple units I would play it as a single hit on the void shield. It fits that it is a single shot so the template would be notionally "placed" over a single void shield.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

A question.

 

I might have missed it between all the words in the book (just look at some of the silly questions I ask around here), but can a shooting attack that has multiple shots (like, say, an autocannon or a unit of Devastators with missile launchers) collapse multiple fields, or does each shield absorb every shot from the same model/weapon/unit?

 

I'm especially curious regarding high RoF weapons (I'll be taking part in a small tournament soon, and may well face IG with very many autocannons and such).

[Gentlemanloser]

You collapse multiple fields.

 

There's a bit about the remainder of hits in an attack goign back to the original target when all shields are down.

 

I tihnk I posted it above, I'll have a look.

 

 

If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Ah, thank you. Much appreciated.

[Therion]

I guess all this arguing came from a theoretical RAW standpoint. Since you know your holo-field target is protected by void shields you know you have to kill the void shields first anyway. So target the void shield generator with your weapons, or any other units that are protected in the 12" bubble instead of the Eldar superheavy. If you happen to hit multiple targets with your blasts you might even collapse multiple void shields in one go. Either way the target won't be getting any holo-field saves, RAW or not (irrelevant). Once the shields are down, blow up the Eldar superheavy.

[Grey Mage]

Yes, because were not here to talk tactics Therion, but rather rules- tactics belong in Tactica, or the army subforums.

[Gentlemanloser]

Off topic, but I still can't send you PMs Grey Mage.  :(

[Grey Mage]

Thats... very odd. Ive just sent you one, feel free to use it.