Deathwing Command Squad

[Brother Bahram]

Hi, Brothers.

I'm planning to make an Deathwing Command Squad for my Lion Guard.

What is the best equipment for these guys? (footslogger and transport)

 

[IanSturrock]

Depends what you want to use them for, I think. You have to bear in mind that mostly, they're like Deathwing troops, except that you can't make them scoring! So keep a lid on the price tag, and think about how you're going to keep them alive and what their purpose is. They can't score, so you may want to use them as a fire magnet to keep the pressure off other DW units, and/or equip them for CC and use them to contest objectives instead.

The Champion is well worth taking if you do want them in CC. He's one of our best champs, which is a pretty good argument for equipping most of the squad for CC really.

If you want a banner, bring the FNP one for a terminator-heavy army, or the dakka one for a more mixed army where you intend to keep the squad on a land raider for most of the game, and surround it with tac squads or (more likely) bikes.

The Apothecary is much cheaper than the FNP banner, but significantly reduces the effectiveness of the squad in CC, because he has no powerfist.

Even if you go mostly CC, do bring a heavy weapon. Heavy Flamer is the obvious choice for a CC-oriented squad. Assault Cannon or Cyclone could work too, but if you bring one, do bring at least one other termie who keeps a Storm Bolter, just so you can split fire at a vehicle with the heavy and still assault something else.

You probably want at least 1-2 storm shields, even if this isn't a pure CC squad. Alternatively, if you're putting them in a land raider anyway, consider Azrael for the invulnerable save.

[Major_Gilbear]

Hmm, well if you want the following:

- Apothecary

- Banner bearer

- Heavy weapon

- Champion

- Stormshield + TH

...then it sort of builds itself!

I might suggest looking through the army lists part of the forum if you're after anything more specific though, as you can then (hopefully) see why the particular squad compositions were chosen for each list. I guess in the end it depends on whether you want a squad for a specific task, or a squad to stick into general lists.

[shabbadoo]

^ That.^

 

Include at least two shooters so that they can split fire the heavy weapon on something that is asking for it, and still have one other weapon to shoot something else that you may want to Assault.  The Apothecary can fill the role of the secondary shooter.  I would equip the Standard Bearer with a TH & SS as well, namely as you want him to stick around to give that +1 Attack for as long as possible.  Otherwise, choose a heavy weapon that compliments the rest of your army.

[Master Sheol]

My DWCS is like that...

Standard Bearer with TH+SS and DW banner

Apothecary

Champion

Trooper with PC + PF

Trooper with SB + CF

[Brother Bahram]

My DWCS is like that...

Standard Bearer with TH+SS and DW banner

Apothecary

Champion

Trooper with PC + PF

Trooper with SB + CF

Thank you!

I´ll think this is a go :)

[Major_Gilbear]

One quick comment: I think you can still mount the Cyclone ML on a model without losing the other weapons, so your CML can also be one of your Storm Shield + TH termies. Might be worth considering that over the PC for the command squad! ;)

[march10k]

The command squad is the only one that can have five TH/SS models...just a thought, I don't think that's worth giving up scoring!  In my mind, there are two reasons to take a command squad.  Either you want a character to take challenges in place of Belial who might actually win them (a deathwing sergeant won't!), or you want the toughness banner.

[Pbenner]

Deathwing Command Squads are really for Deathwing only armies IMO, too pricey otherwise.  Banner + Champion is the bare bones.  This is your core unit in the build.  It hinges on units being kept within 12" of the banner for the opponents shooting phase before you get charge range.  All you need to do is make 2 FNPs and you pay for the banner, so...

 

Hope it helps,

 

Paul

[Chaplain Lucifer]

My opinion is different. DW command squads are not for DW armies, where every scoring unit counts and DW Knights are better option... they shine more in a Green army, that has more scoring options and the DW squad acts as a Terminator+ squad.

[Master Avoghai]

What Luc' says

 

DW command squads are a big no-no in DW lists unless you play nothing but termis (no LR and dread) or over 2500pts

[FerociousBeast]

If you're willing to sacrifice a little bit of your Deathwing list's "purity," adding two full squads of Scouts to replace one DWT squad can potentially give you 3 additional scoring units, giving you some breathing room for a DWCS w/ banner of fortitude or what have you. (Or just giving you more scoring units of course...)

 

Two maxed squads of Scouts w/ missile launchers comes to 270 points, only a power fist or so more expensive than the typical DWT squad. Drop a few Scouts from each and you can make the units cheaper, though sacrificing the utility of combat squads. Reserve them if you're deploying your terminators on the field to keep them safe for late game objective grabs or infiltrate into cover if DWA.

 

To those who say it's not fluffy, Naaman would like to have words with you... except that he's dead, having helped some terminators achieve their mission!

[Brother Bahram]

My opinion is different. DW command squads are not for DW armies, where every scoring unit counts and DW Knights are better option... they shine more in a Green army, that has more scoring options and the DW squad acts as a Terminator+ squad.

Okey. But they are cool

I know that we need every scoring unit when we play pure DW, but I will paint one DW Command Squad when my bone army is finished.

[SvenONE]

In mixed lists I'll run:

 

Term Lib or Chaplain + LC x4 (or TH/SS) + Champion + DW company banner.  It's most effective if you've got the beacons to drop them near, otherwise they'll usually die before they can make any use of the banner.

 

Typher's DW tactica thread talks about the Apothecary, I'm on the fence about him but have been taking him less and reinvesting those points in a CML.  In the end, I'd rather have a split firing damage dealer than my crappy rolling on 30 points of failing all my FNPs.

 

Edit:  I'm with Luci on this also.  I also run them in GW armies as devastation banner bearers for their durability, I will run an apothecary then.  The important thing with any command squad though is to create enough threat elsewhere in your list so you don't give your opponent the easy decision of dumping shots into the one thing that's holding your list together.

[march10k]

In a non-DW army, I see TDA and SS as the gold standard of keeping your dakkapole alive.  Screw rhinos and cover, and a land raider plus a green command squad costs a lot more than a DWCS for similar results.

 

In a (pure) DW army, I see DWCS with FNP banner (and champion) being the lone non-scoring unit in a footslogging army, but I see no place for one in an army that has land raiders.  That place belongs to a squad of knights.

[[TA]Typher]

DWCS w/ a FNP banner is arguably better against certain enemies than a unit of Knights. Against units armies like IG, eldar or Tau S10 AP2 for one round does nothing that S8 AP2 can't do. Plus having a 24" mobile FNP bubble is insanely good against the amount of fire a hordes units pump out. The T5 vs T4 is really not that great as FNP. The 16% more that you mitigate wounding shots with the Knights is more than made up for in the 33% of your FNP rolls the banner provides. Plus blasts weapons wreck Knights, making thier 5t almost moot as you will take more hits. Don't get me wrong it's awesome, but it's use is situational depending on the weapons you are facing.

 

In CC Initiative does come into play with the Tau and IG, but not really against the Eldar who will attack either first or at the very least at the same time. Those numbers are really low and unless you roll epically bad the DWCS will always get to attack back.

 

The biggest factor that I see in these circumstances is point cost, with the Knights being the cheaper option. Having an extra 100 points is hard to pass up. In bigger battles this obstacle is diminished and in 2000+ games a DWCS should be almost standard.

 

Over all I like to use a DWCS with the FNP banner as often as points will allow me. Sometimes (but not often) I even use them over Knights if I'm making a very enemy specific army.

 

Here is the Tactica if you want some other ideas or mathhammer until your eyes bleed. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/

 

I really need to sit down and add more to it.

[IanSturrock]

DWCS w/ a FNP banner is arguably better against certain enemies than a unit of Knights. Against units armies like IG, eldar or Tau S10 AP2 for one round does nothing that S8 AP2 can't do. Plus having a 24" mobile FNP bubble is insanely good against the amount of fire a hordes units pump out. The T5 vs T4 is really not that great as FNP. The 16% more that you mitigate wounding shots with the Knights is more than made up for in the 33% of your FNP rolls the banner provides.

 

FNP saves 33% of wounds.

 

But +1T does a lot more than that against small arms fire, which is (for most armies) still the easiest way to kill termies. Against bolters (S4) the jump from T4 to T5 makes you 33% more survivable (because 2/6 shots wound you rather than 3/6) -- just like FNP. Against lasguns (S3) it makes you twice as survivable -- better than FNP.

 

There are drawbacks to the DWKs, but I'm not convinced that the Command Squad is more useful in a take all comers Deathwing (or DW-heavy) list.

[[TA]Typher]

 

DWCS w/ a FNP banner is arguably better against certain enemies than a unit of Knights. Against units armies like IG, eldar or Tau S10 AP2 for one round does nothing that S8 AP2 can't do. Plus having a 24" mobile FNP bubble is insanely good against the amount of fire a hordes units pump out. The T5 vs T4 is really not that great as FNP. The 16% more that you mitigate wounding shots with the Knights is more than made up for in the 33% of your FNP rolls the banner provides.

 

FNP saves 33% of wounds.

 

But +1T does a lot more than that against small arms fire, which is (for most armies) still the easiest way to kill termies. Against bolters (S4) the jump from T4 to T5 makes you 33% more survivable (because 2/6 shots wound you rather than 3/6) -- just like FNP. Against lasguns (S3) it makes you twice as survivable -- better than FNP.

 

There are drawbacks to the DWKs, but I'm not convinced that the Command Squad is more useful in a take all comers Deathwing (or DW-heavy) list.

 

 

S4 vs T4 = 50% chance to wound on a d6

S4 vs T5 = 33.3333% chance to wound on a d6

 

S3 vs T4 = 33.3333% chance to wound on a D6

S3 vs T5 = 16.6667% chance to wound on a D6

 

You are gaining a roughly 16% chance for every digit on a D6. Not sure how you are getting 33% for a one digit jump.

 

FNP gives you a flat 33% chance that you don't need to bunch up for to gain. 

[IanSturrock]

As numbers go, 3 is 50% bigger than 2.

And 3/6 is 50% bigger than 2/6.

As an illustration: You Deathwing Knights get hit by 12 lasgun shots. On the other side of the board, your FNPed up Command Squad gets hit by another 12 lasgun shots.

The Knights are only wounded on a roll of 6, so only take 2 wounds.

The Command Squad are wounded on a 5 or 6, so take 4 wounds. They then FNP away away an average of 1.33 wounds (33% of 4), leaving them with 2.67 wounds. That's significantly worse than the DWKs, from the same fire.

Without FNP, the Knights are only taking 50% of the wounds from lasgun fire as regular termies take. Assuming you can keep them at T5, naturally (which you'll avoid doing if there's a significant chance of low-AP high-S blasts, also naturally).

[Master Avoghai]

Who cares of lasguns when you're embark a LR?

[IanSturrock]

Well, you're probably not staying in the LR all game, or you're not doing much. :)

Again, my experience is that S3-4, in huge quantity, is what makes terminators disappear most often. Might be lasguns or bolters after you charged and wiped out a unit. Might be CC attacks from a horde army.

Of course, there are other threats out there, especially these days. But hopefully they don't have as many hits on you, and you have an invulnerable save for that kind of thing.

[Master Avoghai]

Of course but therefore you must take into consideration that :

 

In CC it's difficult to profit from the wall of shields

The mass will strike before the PF meaning that often the reply will be less effective against DWK than against the command squad.

 

Moreover, when you compare the FNP vs WoS you don't take into consideration that this FNP may come from the banner and therefore will apply to everybody within 12"... Whereas WoS will apply to DWK only

 

 

It's actually so much things in consideration when coming to mathhammer... And I don't even talk about the point costs... Which is the crucial point here when talking about a DW army that already have costly troops choices.

 

So basically, resilience is very difficult to compare for those 2 squads.

[IanSturrock]

Yeah, and I do think you have to consider everything. Personally, I'm more inclined to use DWKs than a DW Command Squad, unless  I have a very specific purpose for the latter and points to spare. Because, sure, getting FNP for everyone within 12" is great, but by the time you have that and a few Storm Shields, that Command Squad is getting very expensive. And of course if you go the Apothecary route instead of the banner, it's cheaper (if, still more expensive than DWK!), but you're losing out on a powerfist.

[march10k]

Sadistics...*cough* I mean statistics is an arcane art to which the average battle brother (such as me) isn't privy.  But...Ian has the right of it here.  The difference between a 6+ save and a 5+ save is 100%, as in twice as many models with make their save.  The difference between a 3+ save and a 2+ save is far less...you are going from a 67% save rate to an 83% save rate...Ray Charles can see that that "one step on the D6 scale" difference is NOT the same, so you absolutely cannot declare that one pip on the D6 scale is one pip on the D6 scale. It's a matter of diminishing returns.  5+ is 100% better than 6+.  4+ is 50% better than 5+.  3+ is 33% better than 4+.  2+ is 17% better than 3+.  The idea that a given number on the D6 is only 1/6 better or worse than the adjacent number is...flawed.  And that's the limit of my understanding, lol.

[FerociousBeast]

Actually, the diminishing returns go the other way...

 

12 wounds against TDA: 2 kills

12 wounds against Power Armor: 4 kills (100% more than TDA)

12 wounds against Carapace: 6 kills (50% more than Power Armor)

12 wounds against Flak: 8 kills (33% more than Carapace)

12 wounds against Combat Shield: 10 kills (25% more than Flak)

 

So the biggest gain happens from Power Armor to TDA, 100% more resilience, while the smallest gain happens from Combat Shield to Flak, 25% more resilience.

 

EDIT: Never mind, I see what you're saying.  I'm looking at it from the other way, lethality, while you're looking at number of models that make armor saves.

 

To mathhammer out in clearest terms the comparative resilience of DWKs w/ WoS v. DWCS w/ FNP, discounting the possibility of blast weapons:

 

DWKs w/ WoS taking 18 boltgun hits:

18 hits x 1/3 (to wound) x 1/6 (to fail armor save)  = 1 kill

 

DWCS w/ FNP taking 18 boltgun hits:

18 hits x 1/2 (to wound) x 1/6 (to fail armor save) x 2/3 (to fail FNP) = 1 kill

 

Equally resilient.

 

Other factors:

DWK must be in formation to benefit from WoS

DWK in WoS are more vulnerable to blast weapons

DWK do NOT always strike last in combat, which ups their resilience

DWCS can lose FNP by losing a model

DWCS always strikes last in combat unless armed w/ lightning claws

 

Overall, I'd call it a toss up.