Deathwing Command Squad

[IanSturrock]

Yeah, I think their resilience is a tossup. Points cost, on the other hand? DWK win hands-down. And on the attack, I think they have a slight edge, too, assuming you have a delivery method for them (LRC in all probability). Which is why I'd be very careful about bringing the Command Squad at all. Do I want a (possibly second) non-scoring, expensive squad? Only if they have a very definite role to play (and I will be equipping them accordingly).

[Brother Bahram]

All my Brothers!
Thank you for all of your inputs!

 

In battle - wins'n'los it's a toss. The downside - one less scoring unit.

[[TA]Typher]

Yeah, I think their resilience is a tossup. Points cost, on the other hand? DWK win hands-down. And on the attack, I think they have a slight edge, too, assuming you have a delivery method for them (LRC in all probability). Which is why I'd be very careful about bringing the Command Squad at all. Do I want a (possibly second) non-scoring, expensive squad? Only if they have a very definite role to play (and I will be equipping them accordingly).

Hmm looking at the numbers again I think both you and I are right.. And wrong.

 

Against S3 you are correct. I see were I made the mistake. thx for pointing that out. If you factor in the 2+ armor save you'll see very low benifit form T5 over T4 in general. Although I'm sure those horde shooty armies will tell you that volume is the key. If i remember corrctly from the tactica it was like 3% for every ten shots vs a DWT and 1.3% fot a T5 DWK.

 

If you use your same model we see that the scales tip the otherway as the weapons change. With knights retaining a smaller advantage vs bolters but losing it vs tau. You also have to factor in the combined benifit of other DWT using the banner AND blast templates forcing more wounds on the knights. Picking them for their resiliance in a vacuum is hardly a fair comparison.

 

 

12 S4 shots vs T4 = 6 wounds - FNP (1.32) = 5 wounds

12 S4 shots vs T5 = 4 wounds

 

12 s5 shots vs T4 = 8 wounds - FNP (2.64) = 5 wounds

12 s5 shots vs T5 = 6 wounds

 

There are just the basic weapons we see spammed. Against S6 and S7 FNP excels even more. Obviously S8 negates FNP on T4 models.

 

Over all i don't think either unit is bad, in fact they are both awesome, but the cost factor is usually the only difference between the two and usually tips the scale to the Knights.

[[TA]Typher]

In a non-DW army, I see TDA and SS as the gold standard of keeping your dakkapole alive.  Screw rhinos and cover, and a land raider plus a green command squad costs a lot more than a DWCS for similar results.

 

In a (pure) DW army, I see DWCS with FNP banner (and champion) being the lone non-scoring unit in a footslogging army, but I see no place for one in an army that has land raiders.  That place belongs to a squad of knights.

Percision shot. Things like LOS sniping, rhino scoping, cover sniping and barrage sniping can focus the banner.

 

Plus a LRC benifits from the Banner and is relentless and twin-linked. Also if you give the command squad bolters they benifit from it as well. I have a vassal batrep vs orks in which it did just that.

[march10k]

LRC benefits from the toughness banner?  Because that's the only one that terminators benefit from...I was talking about taking a DWCS with a dakkapole in a green army, or a DWCS with the toughness banner in a DW army...I think you got a couple wires crossed there...

 

And I have no idea what "Percision shot. Things like LOS sniping, rhino scoping, cover sniping and barrage sniping can focus the banner." means...please explain?  I've been in a different country all year, different jargon!

[[TA]Typher]

It's late here march and my insomnia probably isn't helping me convey rational thought. I was talking about the dakka banner on a term.

 

 

Los sniping is where you move your unit in a way that they can only see the banner model. He can then be focus fired.

 

Rhino scoping is where you move a vehicle (or two) to block los for your unit so they can only see the model you want to shoot. Since you Can only see that model only it can be killed.

 

Barrage shots always remove models starting from the center of the blast Template. With two "hit" icons on a six sides dice and the ability to subtract BS from any scatter you have greater than a 33% Chance to target the model you want dead.

 

Cover sniping is where you move one of you own units in front of your shooting unit as a screen. You Place the screening models in a way that they block LOS to everyone but the model your shooting unit wants to target, thus according to the rules giving cover saves to some of the enemy models (but not the one you want to snipe). You can then focus Fire the models without the cover saves.

 

While thankfully not everyone does these things in friendly games i have seen them in competitive settings.

 

To see examples look up "teamcomp" on youtube. They have a "tips, tricks and dirty tricks" set Of vids that probably explain it better.

 

 

 

Like always, I'm not trying to bust your balls, I just like to debate stuff like this. It gives me a better idea on how it all works and gives me different points of view. I like when people show me a better idea or idea, lilke Ian did. I'll have to add that info into the tactica whenever I stop making other projects for myself.

[FerociousBeast]

Typher" post="3543533" timestamp="1386758703"]

Yeah, I think their resilience is a tossup. Points cost, on the other hand? DWK win hands-down. And on the attack, I think they have a slight edge, too, assuming you have a delivery method for them (LRC in all probability). Which is why I'd be very careful about bringing the Command Squad at all. Do I want a (possibly second) non-scoring, expensive squad? Only if they have a very definite role to play (and I will be equipping them accordingly).

Hmm looking at the numbers again I think both you and I are right.. And wrong.

Against S3 you are correct. I see were I made the mistake. thx for pointing that out. If you factor in the 2+ armor save you'll see very low benifit form T5 over T4 in general. Although I'm sure those horde shooty armies will tell you that volume is the key. If i remember corrctly from the tactica it was like 3% for every ten shots vs a DWT and 1.3% fot a T5 DWK.

If you use your same model we see that the scales tip the otherway as the weapons change. With knights retaining a smaller advantage vs bolters but losing it vs tau. You also have to factor in the combined benifit of other DWT using the banner AND blast templates forcing more wounds on the knights. Picking them for their resiliance in a vacuum is hardly a fair comparison.


12 S4 shots vs T4 = 6 wounds - FNP (1.32) = 5 wounds
12 S4 shots vs T5 = 4 wounds

12 s5 shots vs T4 = 8 wounds - FNP (2.64) = 5 wounds
12 s5 shots vs T5 = 6 wounds

There are just the basic weapons we see spammed. Against S6 and S7 FNP excels even more. Obviously S8 negates FNP on T4 models.

Over all i don't think either unit is bad, in fact they are both awesome, but the cost factor is usually the only difference between the two and usually tips the scale to the Knights.

Your FNP calculations are off. FNP grants a 5+ save, which translates into mathhammer as a 2/3 chance to fail save. So your S4 numbers should be:

S4:
12 S4 hits vs T4 = 6 wounds x 2/3 (fail FNP save) = 4 wounds
12 S4 hits vs T5 = 4 wounds
Winner: Tie

S5:
12 s5 hits vs T4 = 8 wounds x 2/3 (fail FNP save) = 5.33 wounds (You were only off by a few hundredths)
12 s5 hits vs T5 = 6 wounds
Winner: DWCS

Just for fun:

S3:
12 s3 hits vs T4 = 4 wounds x 2/3 (fail FNP save) = 2.67 wounds
12 s3 hits vs T5 = 2 wounds
Winner: DWK

S6:
12 s6 hits vs T4 = 10 wounds x 2/3 (fail FNP save) = 6.67 wounds
12 s6 hits vs T5 = 8 wounds
Winner: DWCS

So we can see that the Deathwing Knights are more resilient versus low strength attacks while the Deathwing Command Squad with FNP is more resilient against high strength attacks.

[SvenONE]

On a semi-related note (talking banners in a command squad).  But an oft forgotten aspect of taking a [sacred] standard is that it adds +1 to your combat result if you're locked in the same combat (don't have codex, but I believe that's the rule).  Even though Terminators can't sweep if you can inflict enough wounds you could have just forced a fallback which is -25% starting size (requiring IH for a rally).  I think that sweetens the deal for a fort banner on a command squad.  You're most likely never going to be in assault with the devastation banner.

 

One thing view of the command squad I see is that they are ablative wounds for your HQ.  In non-pure DW armies, a command squad (with or without a banner) can exist to deliver an HQ into close combat, terminator librarian is such a bargain even if he only has 2 wounds, if he's deep striking and bullying around some infantry, he's doing a pretty good job.  Factor in a FNP or an extra attack from DWCB, and his unit is pretty solid (although expensive and non-scoring).

 

Overall what I mean is to not be hung up on the utility or purpose or resilience (you of course can't forget those things entirely) of a command squad vs a knight squad, and accept the fact they exist as bodyguards to deal what damage they can and well... die delivering your HQ close enough to bully other units at initiative (or accept challenges).  Sticking your HQ in a squad of knights makes the decision easy for your opponent on what target they may want to focus down, the same goes for putting your HQ in the command squad with a banner.  But if you're splitting threat and forcing dice to be rolled in different areas you're prolonging the life of both squads, actually increasing their resilience.

 

It obviously all changes in pure DW armies since you literally have very little to fall back on.  As soon as you start rolling 1s you're falling behind.

[[TA]Typher]

Thnx Beast.

 

Glad someone can count around here I can't seem to. This insomnia is killing me. Those numbers show what I'm talking about even more. For raw survivability for not only the unit, but all units the DWCS wins. Remember even if you are breaking even, blasts will force more wounds on the DWK. With that said the cost of the DWK are hard to pass up and not many lists can tolerate a 305+ pt non-scoring unit, when a 235 pt unit will do.

 

 

 

 

I agree SvenOne. I don't think anyone here is bashing either unit. We are just comparing Lamborghinis to Maseratis. Both units are awesome. I wouldn't bash anyone that used either unit. Hopefully I haven't come across that way.

[SvenONE]

Oh not at all brother typher!  Just had to throw my 2c in.  Recently I've been running an interrogator chaplain (with mace), LC Command squad (no banner) and an odd number of knights. Edit: my point on this is that when they drop in I cause a little disarray for my opponent into having to decide who to take out first, because the other is going to cause problems next turn (I use bikes to drop them in).  One good thing about Knights is that there aren't any restrictions or incentives for their unit size.  If you've got points to spare you can have 6-7 knights depending on how your list is setup.  It's rare we see terminator or tac squads between 5 and 10.  One extra knight can make a difference.

 

One last thing I wanted to note, a lot of people seem to mention that WoS is hard to get during CQC.  I've never really had this problem? Am I breaking some rule at pile-ins? When it comes time to allocate wounds I merely start at the ends if possible and work my way in.  Challenges are the biggest issue though.

[[TA]Typher]

Yeah I agree Sven. I like to take at least 1 extra knight is I can. I find that losing 1 to overwatch or some other randomness always occurs befor eI get where I need to be. I've also never had too much of a problem retaining T5 until I'm low on models. I just make them hug when they charge in. go closest to closest and then fill in the gaps when I can. Sometimes I spread them out to avoid blast spam if they get caught outside of combat, but it depends.

 

I've always wondered however why I see people take squads to 8 - 10 Knights. Activating their maces seems like major overkill when you take that many. Just one unit of 5 and rerolling hits averages 6+ wounds on a T8 wraithknight, more than enough to kill it. I don't know what you'd need double that number for. How often do you double charge 2 WK?

[SvenONE]

I think the double number is basically to account for the fact you'll most likely lose some on the way.  Consider the fact that the knight master is in there also, so if you roll with 5 and lose 3 on an overwatch (it's happened to me! hilalriously I might add) you're down to only 1 smite.

[march10k]

TYVM, Typher.  We started out antagonistic a few months ago, but I think we understand one another now.  I have seen one of those tricks...but overall, I would say that they're not in the spirit of the game, they'll only work against someone of similar skill level not enough to overcome being outmatched), only a tool would resort to them, and most players would bash you over the head with a Golden Daemon trophy for trying any of them.  Seriously, the one time I saw one of them used, the store owner refunded the perpetrator's entry fee and banned him from tournament play...to rousing cheers from players who hadn't been victimized by the chicanery in question (rhino scoping, as you call it).  OTOH, barrage sniping is pretty legitimate.  Nothing wrong with putting the template on the targeted model and praying to the dice gods!

[Pyro X]

It's late here march and my insomnia probably isn't helping me convey rational thought. I was talking about the dakka banner on a term.

 

 

Los sniping is where you move your unit in a way that they can only see the banner model. He can then be focus fired.

 

Rhino scoping is where you move a vehicle (or two) to block los for your unit so they can only see the model you want to shoot. Since you Can only see that model only it can be killed.

 

Barrage shots always remove models starting from the center of the blast Template. With two "hit" icons on a six sides dice and the ability to subtract BS from any scatter you have greater than a 33% Chance to target the model you want dead.

 

Cover sniping is where you move one of you own units in front of your shooting unit as a screen. You Place the screening models in a way that they block LOS to everyone but the model your shooting unit wants to target, thus according to the rules giving cover saves to some of the enemy models (but not the one you want to snipe). You can then focus Fire the models without the cover saves.

 

While thankfully not everyone does these things in friendly games i have seen them in competitive settings.

 

To see examples look up "teamcomp" on youtube. They have a "tips, tricks and dirty tricks" set Of vids that probably explain it better.

 

 

 

Like always, I'm not trying to bust your balls, I just like to debate stuff like this. It gives me a better idea on how it all works and gives me different points of view. I like when people show me a better idea or idea, lilke Ian did. I'll have to add that info into the tactica whenever I stop making other projects for myself.

good stuff to know. I wouldn't use this unless the other guy is being a jerk, say running a FOTM tau / enclave list. If you watch how the other side is setting up and running his models you could probably tell if he is about to do this as well.

[IanSturrock]

I don't think those tricks are inherently problematic, personally. They're more indicative of how dreadful GW is at playtesting than anything else. They're definitely a tournament thing rather than a friendly game thing, but they're very much within the rules.

[Pyro X]

Yes but then again titans with 4-8 riptides are within the rules as well. Granted both are kind of a jerk thing to do (for lack of a nicer word).

[IanSturrock]

Oh, yeah, agreed.

Most of my friends and opponents really want to get practice playing competitively, so are happy enough to go for a 'bring your best list and let's play aggressively' kind of a game, because that's how it's likely to be in a tournament. But if I'm playing someone new to 40K, I'll either bring a nicer list, or give them a load of help, or both. That said, a lot of the time, newcomers to the game will want you to point out useful tips and tricks like Rhino sniping.

For me, though I think that in a better-written game, you wouldn't need to Rhino snipe, the fact that you can, actually enhances the game overall, because it gives you an extra option that is sometimes better than just shooting the whole squad, but not always.

[Pyro X]

WE would like a better written game but from GWs point of view is, what will make is money. 5th ed was OMG its melee fest and lots of tanks. this time, so far, is ranged ranged ranged with not so much mech and now titans. O and lets not forget allies so everyone can have "only" a few squads of an ally (to make them want to start another army). 7th will change it to something else that no one has so all the bad units will be amazing and the amazing units will be bleh. on the plus side, maybe our 2 fliers will be worth something then :P.

[Isiah]

We're well off Deathwing Command squads here gents. Don't risk closure.

 

Cheers

I

[march10k]

I think the best use of a DWCS is as a Golden Daemon entry.  With the Deathwing Company Banner, a Terminator Apothecary, a Halberdier, a plasma cannon, and a DA-specific thundernator, you'd have the cool factor that sets you apart from equally well painted entries.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Haha, brilliant March!!!  I'm still rolling my eyes at our FAQ nerfing and poor weapon rules and cost, but now that escalation has made all those things irrelevant I wonder if Vetock could see it in his heart to fix all his noob errors. 

Sorry Isiah, couldn't resist ;) although it is actually partially on topic if you consider the irrelevance of the DWCS in any competative list building process :D

[Isiah]

At least you've actually mentioned them in your post Stobz - so you're good to go :p

 

Cheers

I

[SvenONE]

The champion is actually really good, I just got the Phoenix Terminators delivered this week and plan on doing them as DW.  I'm going to do one for now as a champion.

[IanSturrock]

I actually picked up a Scibor "Celtic SF Knight" not-Space Wolf to use as the body of my DW Champ. Added the official arms and halberd from a bitz supplier. I figure he picked up the rune-inscribed armour after a bet with a very drunk Space Wolf champion... it will be repainted bone white, naturally, but I reckon he'll keep the original runic iconography out of respect.

[[TA]Typher]

I actually picked up a Scibor "Celtic SF Knight" not-Space Wolf to use as the body of my DW Champ. Added the official arms and halberd from a bitz supplier. I figure he picked up the rune-inscribed armour after a bet with a very drunk Space Wolf champion... it will be repainted bone white, naturally, but I reckon he'll keep the original runic iconography out of respect.

 

Those models look cool. My only problem is that make the unit look hodge-podge.