number of fallen theory

[XKhalilX]

i was reading topic on cypher rules supplement. and had me thinking. now mind u i dont play i only paint and read 40k.

 

the main issue was people saying theres hardly any fallen so a fallen army supplement is not plausible.

 

now if i recall there was around 100,000 dark angels at end of crusade. now lets do some stats.

after codex the DA and successors in second founding:

DA 1000

angels of vengence 1000

angels of absolution 1000

angels of redemption 1000

thats 4000. no saw angels of vigilance arw DA and second founding. thats another 1000. say consecrators are second as well. another 1000. say consecrators of darkness are second. another 1000

 

that is total of 7000. we know disciples of caliban and guardians are later founding so they dont count.

 

that leaves 93000 unaccounted marines.

 

say the war on caliban was so epic that the DA lost 90% of their total 100000. that would be 90,000. that would be an insane casualty rate even by real life accounts.

so 90k/93k. that leaves 3000 left.

 

now if we go on that either the 3000 are fallen or split between fallen and DA and second founders.

 

if the latter that would bring each chapter over 1000 marines. the unforgiven wouldnt dare do that for simole reason that any investigation into this matter most likely could produce evidence of the inner civil war thus branding the unforgiven traitors as well. they had too much heat that might.potentioally come there way and wouldnt dare push the envelope.

 

so the only possible answer is 3000 fallen. mind u thats using an equation and theory of an insane amount of deaths on caliban. thats also accounting to using consecrators, prosecutors and angels of vigilance as second founding. if not then that would give additional 3000 making a total 6000.

 

so my belied is that it is very plausible there is thousands (if not tens of thousands) of fallen running amock. and lets not forget, all chapters have had marines go traitor except grey knights. so later "fallen" can be added to this.

 

id love to hear thoughts. forgive me for error in spelling and grammar. im using my phone in wifi cafe in yemen. not fatestt connection .

[Brother dean]

Your 3000 (or 6000) fallen were scattered over a million worlds and at least 10,000 years...  (Scattered through space and TIME)  Sure there are enough for an army but finding two of them together is a miracle and worthy of mobilizing ALL of the Unforgiven chapters to bring them both in.

[XKhalilX]

the reorganization is i believe difficult given what u said. the number of fallen being so low they can only be found in small numbers that cant even constitute a small warband i believe is difficult to swallow given the numbers.

 

i think it is possible a fallen warband can cary from 30-100. obviously they wouldnt want to organize too big chz that will bring alert to unforgiven.

 

and i.also wondered how many fallen have died at the hands of other marines without the other chapters realizing just WHO they killed in battle. im sure some fallen have died at the hands of ultramarines or others. they could have blended into a chaos or rebel warband with ease. and even if they were to be discovered i think the ultramarines or whomever would assume its simply a modern era DA who turned to chaos. i dont think it would raise much alarm as it seems every chapter has had its sharr of both rebels and traitors in the modern 40k era

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

we are also not accounting for those Fallen who completely converted to chaos, as so certainly did, these Fallen would not necessarily be recognizable as former DA.

 

also, think about it, throwing a few 1000 marines across 41 Milleniums is a lot of time and a lot of places.  im sure many of died in the past and future and so dont exist in the current time.

[johnyocum]

Probably only 10 millennia, instead of 41, but yeah, 10 thousand years to scatter the Fallen across, and with as many worlds as there are in the galaxy?  You are very lucky to find a squad-sized element together.

[Phoebus]

i was reading topic on cypher rules supplement. and had me thinking. now mind u i dont play i only paint and read 40k.

 

the main issue was people saying theres hardly any fallen so a fallen army supplement is not plausible.

 

now if i recall there was around 100,000 dark angels at end of crusade. now lets do some stats.

after codex the DA and successors in second founding:

DA 1000

angels of vengence 1000

angels of absolution 1000

angels of redemption 1000

thats 4000. no saw angels of vigilance arw DA and second founding. thats another 1000. say consecrators are second as well. another 1000. say consecrators of darkness are second. another 1000

 

that is total of 7000. we know disciples of caliban and guardians are later founding so they dont count.

 

that leaves 93000 unaccounted marines.

 

I mean you no offense, but that's faulty logic.  The potential number of Fallen doesn't have to do with how many loyalist Dark Angels survived Caliban, but how many of Luther's warriors managed to survive that battle.

 

This post might be of interest you.  It's basically my theory on the potential number of the Fallen Angels, based on the data we get from the novel 'Fallen Angels'.  :)

[XKhalilX]

johny good point but doesnt cypher and more powerful fallen have ways to organize and bring them together?

 

and what of the new lutherians. those of the unforgiven who, like every other chapter in 40k, have traitors. im sure there are unforgiven falling renegade or chaos in m41 just like any other chapter.

 

and these guys werenr scattered tbrough spacw and time so they could possibly organize better and/or the likes of the original fallen can organize warbands utilizing latter day lutherians

[johnyocum]

The Fallen are those that were led astray by Luther during the Heresy.

 

Those who fell after the destruction of Caliban are not part of the 'Fallen', according to the way the Fallen are defined in the DA codex.

[XKhalilX]

ah well whats the fun in that! neo lutherians wanna hang.with the big guns too.

 

in all seriousness though i could see a fallen leading latter day renegades or traitors. being lead by one of the original fallen would bring great charisma and awe

[Brother dean]

johny good point but doesnt cypher and more powerful fallen have ways to organize and bring them together?

 

 

No.  

 

Depending on your theology, the "deity" protecting Cypher pushes more fallen into his path  OR  Cypher is really an undercover agent seeking them out on behalf of the Inner Circle/Emperor/Lion/Inquisition*

 

*And by Inquisition I mean on behalf of Garvial Loken and Dorn, not the feble and fractured Inquisition we have in m42...

 

 

And there are very few post heresy renegade Dark Angels.  The Librarians and Chaplains root them out early and they go off to chamber 43 to be "dissapeared".

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

yea and also, no living unforgiven save the Supreme Grand Master and few others know Luther even exists.