Questions about history and Chapter assets

[Disruptor_fe404]

As per the title...

 

1. How big is a Chapter fleet going to be, given that the Chapter is fully-functional, of no ill-repute, and fairly old (think upwards of 5000 years)?

 

2. Similar to 1., but with Chapter serfs/household? Or, would this be more dependent on recruitment policies and homeworld?

 

3. How big would one expect a training cadre to be for a new Chapter (assuming a new Chapter of approximately 800 Astartes, given that they'd have no Veterans or Scouts since they're fresh from the Martian genebanks)?

 

4. Did Explorator Fleets exist post-Heresy or during the Scouring?

 

5. When did Rogal Dorn die? Lexicanum tells me that there's some canon conflict on this, with a roughly 2000-year difference between the dates.

 

Thanks in advance team!

 

Well, assuming this is hte right place to ask, that is...

 

EDIT: Tag cleanup.

[Brother Tyler]

According to the lore, the majority of Chapters have 1 or 2 battlebarges, with a small number having as many as 3. The Ultramarines (and most likely the other 2nd Founding Chapters) have had many more than that over the years. The number of strike cruisers in a Chapter hasn't really been nailed down, though I would speculate that the average Chapter would have at least four. Other smaller ship types are anyone's guess, but I imagine that there are many of these.

 

A Chapter household will be huge. The numbers have never really been discussed in depth, but I imagine that there are far more serfs/thralls/servitors/whatever than there are Space Marines (by a ratio of at least 5:1, more likely exceeding 10:1).

 

The size of training cadres has never been officially stated, and may actually vary depending upon the capabilities of the Chapter(s) that provide the cadres. Skills sets for the entire range of the Codex Astartes would be required (all battlefield roles, all weapons, all equipment, all tanks/vehicles) as well as the specialist orders (librarians, chaplains, techmarines, apothecaries), not to mention the other skills performed by the "lesser" members of the Chapter (artificers, thralls, servitors, etc.). Some of this expertise may also come from the Adeptus Mechanicus (and the Steel Confessors background implies that it may be possible for the Adeptus Mechanicus to be the sole source of this expertise in some cases).

 

The fleets of the crusades combined aspects of the explorator fleets with the other elements of the Imperium's power. Imperial Armour The Horus Heresy Volume I - Betrayal indicates that the Mechanicum had something very much like the explorator fleets before Terra was reunited. These may not have been called "explorator fleets" (or maybe they were), but they were functionally the same as what we now know as explorator fleets.

 

Rogal Dorn is said to have been the last of the loyalist primarchs to disappear (not including Roboute Guilliman, who is maintained in stasis). We know that it was no later than M32 because his skeletal remains have been carried into battle as sources of inspiration since that time. The specific date, though, is a matter of conjecture.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

i might also add that there is also debate as to whether those bones are actually Dorn's

[Brother Tyler]

i might also add that there is also debate as to whether those bones are actually Dorn's

I don't recall any lore to this effect.

 

In the novel Space Marine by Ian Watson, it was actually Dorn's entire body that was found. At least one of his skeletal hands was kept in a reliquary, with each of the succeeding Chapter Masters scrimshandering the name of his predecessor upon the bones. Meanwhile, the rest of Dorn's skeleton was encased in amber within the reclusium.

 

The Games Day UK '99 Programme provided an early version of the history of the Crimson Fists Chapter, and that information included speculation that Dorn may have continued to live, leading the Adeptus Custodes upon Holy Terra.

 

The Imperial Fists Index Astartes article published in White Dwarf magazine during 3rd edition reverted to Dorn being killed upon the Sword of Sacrilege, though the verbiage was confusing and led many to believe that it was only Dorn's hand that was found.

 

Later lore (either 4th or 5th edition) maintained that Dorn was dead, but did not clarify the exact nature of the remains found upon the Sword of Sacrilege.

 

The latest lore maintains that Dorn died upon the Sword of Sacrilege, but clarifies (as a retcon?) that it was only Dorn's hand that was found.

 

Aside from the one speculative bit of information in the Crimson Fists history, there has never been any debate [that I'm aware of] that the remains found upon the Sword of Sacrilege (whether his entire body or just his hand) were indeed his. As the above illustrates, however, the lore of the game is often confused, shadowy, and sometimes contradictory based upon the perceptions, interpretations, and agendas of those that write the history. What is the source of your information?

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

hm i did know that bit. guess i have not buffed up on that in longer than i thought...

[Beta galactosidase]

Re: 800 marines.

 

Do you know the scout company description that says it has no fixed sized and is usually less than 100 marines, but may become bigger in times of war?  If not, you might find it in the 3rd edition codex, maybe.

 

People bring this up in threads about how chapters can exceed size limits, with the idea that they can have a full chapter, plus an enormous scout company.  In a more rigorous interpretation, it would just mean that a chapter is reduced by heavy fighting to 500-600 marines, and ends up fielding something like 22 scout squads to partially make up the numbers. By this quote, you could say they have eight hundred marines, but also that they have 800 marines plus two hundred scouts.  They definitely start life with 1000 sets of gene-seed.

 

 

Then they do not have a veteran company.  They cannot even really have full sets of battle companies.  Think about it, how hard it is to be in a battle company: a battle company has two assault squads, and in a given campaign probably could use an assault squad in two or three different places.  That single assault squad that winds up on a mission can really ruin things for the company by messing up a mission, either by failing the mission and screwing up the campaign, or by getting so beat up that they cannot be used anymore.  It takes much more experienced marines to form a battle company than to form a reserve company.

 

In the reserve companies, there will be three or four squads of the same type on every mission, so the responsibility is split three or four ways and a squad making one or two mistakes is less likely to spoil an entire campaign.  There is a good case for a new chapter cobbling together a single battle company from the best candidates, and giving it very good support from the rest of the chapter who are still reserve companies or scouts, to take the pressure off.  It seems much less hazardous to the survival of a chapter to have one battle company, mostly-full reserve companies, and over a hundred scouts.

 

Regardless of whether new chapters have one battle company or four, they still definitely do not have veterans.  It is still very useful to have veterans though, so it makes sense for them to team up with different, senior chapter that does have veterans.  Additionally, instead of relying on the 3-5 apothecaries in a cadre, they can have help from another chapter to fall back on.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Phew, time to respond!
 

By this quote, you could say they have eight hundred marines, but also that they have 800 marines plus two hundred scouts.  They definitely start life with 1000 sets of gene-seed.

 
That's a good point, that they would be 'a Chapter' only after they had 1000 sets of gene-seed. Will account for this.
 

They cannot even really have full sets of battle companies.  Think about it, how hard it is to be in a battle company: a battle company has two assault squads, and in a given campaign probably could use an assault squad in two or three different places.  That single assault squad that winds up on a mission can really ruin things for the company by messing up a mission, either by failing the mission and screwing up the campaign, or by getting so beat up that they cannot be used anymore.  It takes much more experienced marines to form a battle company than to form a reserve company.
 
In the reserve companies, there will be three or four squads of the same type on every mission, so the responsibility is split three or four ways and a squad making one or two mistakes is less likely to spoil an entire campaign.  There is a good case for a new chapter cobbling together a single battle company from the best candidates, and giving it very good support from the rest of the chapter who are still reserve companies or scouts, to take the pressure off.  It seems much less hazardous to the survival of a chapter to have one battle company, mostly-full reserve companies, and over a hundred scouts.

 
And I definitely agree that a fresh Chapter is more likely to be a collection of Reserve Companies than a standard Chapter organisation.
 

A Chapter household will be huge. The numbers have never really been discussed in depth, but I imagine that there are far more serfs/thralls/servitors/whatever than there are Space Marines (by a ratio of at least 5:1, more likely exceeding 10:1).

 

Was definitely expecting a much lower ratio (though perhaps I wasn't including as many servitors as I should have). That's a lot of non-Astartes behind the scenes...

 

Alright, follow-up questions!

 

6. How long does a Founding take, as far as number of years are concerned? Actually, scratch that, I'll stop beating around the bush... The 3rd Founding happened at the dawn of the 32nd Millenium. When was the 4th Founding, and would Dorn have been around at that point to shake some hands and give a thumbs-up for a 4th Founding Fists Successor Chapter?

 

7. Probably an obvious question, but members of the Chapter household are fully indoctrinated into the Chapter cult, yes? I seem to recall some fluff stating this exact thing, but my memory isn't what it used to be...

 

8. How are Imperial starships built? Not the battle barges or the strike cruisers (I struggle to think of those rolling off the production line post-Heresy, it'd take hundreds of years and thousands of artificers to make one...), but the frigates and what have you? Orbital shipyards? Forge Worlds? Orbital shipyards on Forge Worlds? I'm asking this one because I just discovered the Gladius, and the idea of having an entire Company (maybe even more than one Company!) using Gladii to operate in multiple theaters just tickles me...

 

Again, thanks in advance!

[Beta galactosidase]

Any chapter starts out with 1000 sets.  Take a single set, copy it 1000 times, and do not start implanting until they hit that number.  It takes 55 years from the first set. The spacing does not depend on how long it takes. They don't really start on a new founding as soon as the old one is done.
 
Re: ships, see the Lord Daros at this link. Given fifty five years to get enough implants, and five years after that to implant them all, a new chapter could find a whole fleet waiting for them.

[Demus Ragnok]

As to the size of the chapter household, I believe that most modern military has a ratio of about 9 to 1 of support to combat personnel.

 

On the construction of starships. Perhaps they are built in a similar way to modern blue water navy ships. The ships are built in "modules" or small sections that are assembled into larger sections that are then assembled to build the vessel. I see starships being built in leftable sections planetside and then assembled in orbit. Perhaps with the exterior hull being nearly finished and then the ships internals added in manageable chunks. With multiple manufactora working on different sections or levels of the ship around the clock a frigate could be completed in 2-3 years. Or less given the massive populations of most forge worlds.

 

A dedicated orbital ship yard could do all the fabrication in orbit taking just raw materials.

[Emperors Immortals]

Br.Tyler you never cease to amaze me! You must win the trivia night's every time.

 

Is always thought the personnel numbers were more like feudal knights; up to 20-30 support staff to maintain one warrior. At least that's hoe I'm writing my Blood Hawks.

 

1 battlebarge is quite generous for any chapter after the third founding, and I imagine it would take some time to convince the mechsnicum for a replacement.

 

Which HH book had the Mechanicus exporator flet? The one with the magis who had gone mad and rogue? Good descriptions in there anyway.

 

And lastly the old fluff had chspters send brothers to mars o be initiated into there cults. Whether that means different lineages maintain cults on mars (ie UM, IF, IH etc) or they happen to ally with one cult/faction I've not been able to tell, so there may be several mech cults operating within the astartes, if that helps

[Demus Ragnok]

Br.Tyler you never cease to amaze me! You must win the trivia night's every time.

 

Is always thought the personnel numbers were more like feudal knights; up to 20-30 support staff to maintain one warrior. At least that's hoe I'm writing my Blood Hawks.

 

1 battlebarge is quite generous for any chapter after the third founding, and I imagine it would take some time to convince the mechsnicum for a replacement.

 

Which HH book had the Mechanicus exporator flet? The one with the magis who had gone mad and rogue? Good descriptions in there anyway.

 

And lastly the old fluff had chspters send brothers to mars o be initiated into there cults. Whether that means different lineages maintain cults on mars (ie UM, IF, IH etc) or they happen to ally with one cult/faction I've not been able to tell, so there may be several mech cults operating within the astartes, if that helps

 

All tech marines are trained on Mars and thereby initiated into the "Machine Cult".

[Emperors Immortals]

 

 

Br.Tyler you never cease to amaze me! You must win the trivia night's every time.

 

Is always thought the personnel numbers were more like feudal knights; up to 20-30 support staff to maintain one warrior. At least that's hoe I'm writing my Blood Hawks.

 

1 battlebarge is quite generous for any chapter after the third founding, and I imagine it would take some time to convince the mechsnicum for a replacement.

 

Which HH book had the Mechanicus exporator flet? The one with the magis who had gone mad and rogue? Good descriptions in there anyway.

 

And lastly the old fluff had chspters send brothers to mars o be initiated into there cults. Whether that means different lineages maintain cults on mars (ie UM, IF, IH etc) or they happen to ally with one cult/faction I've not been able to tell, so there may be several mech cults operating within the astartes, if that helps

All tech marines are trained on Mars and thereby initiated into the "Machine Cult".

 

Of course, translate probably didn't work well. I meant that ambiguous wording left me wondering about sects within the machine cult, there could be factions allied more to genetor or other departments while still being sanctioned parts of the machine cult itself.

 

I thought it was kewl :)

[Disruptor_fe404]

Thanks for the answers team.

 

Sounds like most agree that the Chapter household would be truly massive. And I'm coming round to the idea quite strongly myself.

 

Enough questions for now, so thanks again!