New Player Seeking to Learn and build an Army

[Landrick]

Hello! This will probably be a little long, as there is quite a bit I don't understand. I appreciate your help!

 

First off, I am new to the hobby, starting off with the Dark Vengeance set (then i picked up another tac squad and a dread from ebay).

I just played my first game Sunday at my FLGS with a nice fellow i met that showed me the ropes. I really had a great time!! I can't wait to play again. I feel like I learned a lot, but also walked away with a lot of questions as I digested the game we played. I will use bullet points to make it more readable:

 

Learned:

-I need Rhinos/Razorbacks for mobility

-A Dread with Missile Launcher/Lascannon is not sufficient AV against 2 Dreads and 2 Rhinos

-I hate Grim Resolve. It seemed to only serve to get my Tacs stuck in with his Chaos Lord. Thus condemning 2 (5man) squads to unwinnable fights.

-Having a Librarian footslog into no man's land is a bad idea

-Ravenwing mobility is sweet.

-Hammer of Wrath is sweeter.

-Teleporter Homers register off the sweetneess scale (Deep Striking precisely onto Difficult Terrain to hammer some CSM? yes please)

-Deathwing Assualt is amazing, and even better against Chaos

-YOU CAN ONLY CHARGE WHAT YOU SHOOT!!!!!! (I kept forgetting this one)

-I really like the DW/RW. I like their tactical options and striking power most of all. Greenwing, not so much.

-Cover is important for saving against plasma

 

Questions: (for questions on rules, i think an example from the game would be most helpful for me to understand, thanks!)

-If i split fire (with my terminators) can I assault either target?

-Is there anything good about Grim Resolve?

-How does the 'Scouts' special rule work? (RW have it)

-And 'Outflank' for that matter, as I understand 'Scouts' confers it?

-Just to be sure, can you explain Hammer of Wrath?

 

So the above musings lead me to the conclusions of what I liked and didn't like about my army. I started doing some research to see if anything in the Allies matrix would help me bolster up some of the things I found wanting. I naturally looked to SM chapter tactics, as they are the easiest for me to get to. (All I need is the C:SM, I have many unpainted Tacs) The one I found most appealling was the Raven Guard. Why? If I understand correctly, the provide me with more of what I like about the Dark Angels, Tactical options and flex ability, and the option to hit hard and fast. Also, no Grim Resolve on the tacs. However, before I go full steam ahead I want to make sure I understand the Chapter Tactics(Raven Guard), because if not, this is a moot point.

 

Questions- Chapter Tactics(Raven Guard)

-Strike from the Shadows... what? I have read and re-read it. Understanding 'Scout' would help, but no one seems to mention 'Outflank'...

-Is Stealth just a +1 cover save?

 

Here is what I envision:

-DW in reserve for Deep Strike, RW and bike Libby (or another Warlord with Brilliant Planning) on the field with Dreads (maybe some tacs as well) and whatever (RG) Assualt Marines i get

-RavenGuard Tacs/Devastators in rhinos start in reserve and Outflank to be able to create pincer moves/kill zones from the board edge

-Is this feasable? (Not competitive, but legal and at least makes sense)

 

Ok, if you have read this far, I thank you. I appreciate your help, and look forward to learning more.

 

TL;DR:

See -Bullets

[Pyro X]

yes you can charge either target when you split fire, or both if they are close enough. granted you don't get the +1 attack if you charge both.

scout with bike lets you get a 12" move before the game starts after they have tried to steal 1st turn. (its bad ass) scouts on foot have a 6" scout move.

yes scout lets you outflank but I don't see alot of people using it.

Hammer of wrath, (bikes and assault troops have this) lets you, on the turn that you charge get a free auto hit at int 10 for each of your models on base to base with the other guy. you still have to roll to wound but not to hit. my bikes have glanced many of transports by hammer of wrath before :P.

yes stealth adds +1 cover save, shroud adds another +1 and they stack. stealth, shroud, jink, skilled rider, & the RW shroud all stack.

[Cactus]

Welcome to the Rock, Landrick. Ravenwing, Deathwing and Raven Guard sounds like an interesting mix, I wish you luck.

The scout and stealth rules are described in the Special Rules section of the rulebook, outflanking is in the same section as reserves and deep strike. Any unit with the scout and/or infiltrate special rule that is kept in reserve may choose to outflank.

Deathwing Knights also have the hammer of wrath rule, which I tend to forget until the following turn.

Grim Resolve is great if you don't want your guys to run away. There are some shooting and psychic attacks that apply leadership penalties so it's sometimes useful outside combat. You've obviously found the drawback, which is not running away from close combat when you would prefer to do so and expose the enemy unit to being shot. Their stubborn refusal to give up is one of the aspects of the Dark Angels I like most, so my friendly advice is to suck it up. Other people may have more constructive views.

[Master Avoghai]

I would also recommend not to use ally when starting in the game.

 

The allied matrix has been done to allow people starting a second army to play it fast.

This also allows to make themed army (Renegade IG fighting alongside with chaos marines or Deamons they summoned...)

 

But other than that, due to flaws *cough* tau battle brothers *cough*, using allied matrix looks like a cheat code in video games.

[[TA]Typher]

When my two boys started playing a couple of months ago we played endless 500pt battles. They go really fast and give you a goid idea what each unit does. We'd mix up our lists everytime and it helped them get a quick feel for all the ins and outs of their armies.

 

If you can find a buddy to do that you can play 3 or 4 little games in the time it takes to play one normal game. It seemed to help. Now my kids routinely plays agaisnt random people when we go to the hobby shop without assistance.

[Master Avoghai]

yes scout lets you outflank but I don't see alot of people using it.

 

I use it systematically for my attack bikes.

It protects me from giving an easy 1st blood point.

It allows me to put a pressure on back lines, particularly to ordnance...

[Terrahawk]

I must confess, I'm also a fan of our Grim Resolve. Even though not the most effective of the Chapter Tactics, it certainly is very flavourful for us. At times it can be burden (as it should), but sometimes it is really useful. When you are fighting assault near the the table edges, running away is the last thing you want to do. Also, it's very useful for tarpitting opposing player's good assault troops, since you just won't break because you always use your full leadership.

Anyways, welcome aboard to the hobby that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

[Brother dean]

One use for Grim Resolve is good for a "Speed Bump" unit. Say you want another turn shooting at the big scary gribbly*, Run your 5 man squad out into it's path and make sure the rest of your army has a good LOS to them. When said gribbly massacres the speed bump unit (which will not run) the Gribbly will be in Line of Sight of several shooty units with no movement left and your player turn coming up. It takes skill to pull off and is expensive in that you lose the unit, but it does work.

 

 

*Big Scary Gribbly can consist of any HtH unit that can eat 3 or 4 times its points, Examples include Thunderwolf Cav, Juggers of khorne, Stealers, etc.

[Pyro X]

I really like playing 500 point games as well but your not going to really see much RW/DW action in it. I totally forgot about DW knights as well lol, thanks.

[Landrick]

Well met brothers!

yes you can charge either target when you split fire, or both if they are close enough. granted you don't get the +1 attack if you charge both.

scout with bike lets you get a 12" move before the game starts after they have tried to steal 1st turn. (its bad ass) scouts on foot have a 6" scout move.

yes scout lets you outflank but I don't see alot of people using it.

Hammer of wrath, (bikes and assault troops have this) lets you, on the turn that you charge get a free auto hit at int 10 for each of your models on base to base with the other guy. you still have to roll to wound but not to hit. my bikes have glanced many of transports by hammer of wrath before .

yes stealth adds +1 cover save, shroud adds another +1 and they stack. stealth, shroud, jink, skilled rider, & the RW shroud all stack.

do the hits from HoW (if they wound) count towards the number of wounds for calculating who wins the assault? If so it seems like it would really help in the fight

Welcome to the Rock, Landrick. Ravenwing, Deathwing and Raven Guard sounds like an interesting mix, I wish you luck.

The scout and stealth rules are described in the Special Rules section of the rulebook, outflanking is in the same section as reserves and deep strike. Any unit with the scout and/or infiltrate special rule that is kept in reserve may choose to outflank.

Deathwing Knights also have the hammer of wrath rule, which I tend to forget until the following turn.

Grim Resolve is great if you don't want your guys to run away. There are some shooting and psychic attacks that apply leadership penalties so it's sometimes useful outside combat. You've obviously found the drawback, which is not running away from close combat when you would prefer to do so and expose the enemy unit to being shot. Their stubborn refusal to give up is one of the aspects of the Dark Angels I like most, so my friendly advice is to suck it up. Other people may have more constructive views.

Thank you! I actually found some nifty videos by Fritz40k on youtube that explained the concepts a lot better for me. If I understand correctly, outflanking works just like reserves (you have to roll for them after turn 1), then you roll again to see where they turn up. Can you opt instead to deploy them from your table edge?

Also Grim Reolve seems awful for assault marines...

I do like the fluff, but i hated it on the table! Granted I have a lot to learn about positioning...

I would also recommend not to use ally when starting in the game.

The allied matrix has been done to allow people starting a second army to play it fast.
This also allows to make themed army (Renegade IG fighting alongside with chaos marines or Deamons they summoned...)

But other than that, due to flaws *cough* tau battle brothers *cough*, using allied matrix looks like a cheat code in video games.

I do want allies b/c it gives me a lot of what i want, and less of what i don't. However, I also want allies because I have a bunch of tacs I don't want to use as DA, so I figured starting another Marine army was my next best bet. RG just seems to fit best with what I enjoy while I grow them. Especially b/c I will only be getting more if the trend I am on continues. I just got Assault on Black Reach from ebay. 10 more tacs! ARRRRGH!

When my two boys started playing a couple of months ago we played endless 500pt battles. They go really fast and give you a goid idea what each unit does. We'd mix up our lists everytime and it helped them get a quick feel for all the ins and outs of their armies.

If you can find a buddy to do that you can play 3 or 4 little games in the time it takes to play one normal game. It seemed to help. Now my kids routinely plays agaisnt random people when we go to the hobby shop without assistance.

I like this idea, unfortunately I know few people who play... only 1 right now actually. Although I think I will meet more soon. But I have suckered my wife into one little "patrol skirmish" so 500pts isn't a bad stretch...

yes scout lets you outflank but I don't see alot of people using it.

I use it systematically for my attack bikes.
It protects me from giving an easy 1st blood point.
It allows me to put a pressure on back lines, particularly to ordnance...

this... this appeals to me

I must confess, I'm also a fan of our Grim Resolve. Even though not the most effective of the Chapter Tactics, it certainly is very flavourful for us. At times it can be burden (as it should), but sometimes it is really useful. When you are fighting assault near the the table edges, running away is the last thing you want to do. Also, it's very useful for tarpitting opposing player's good assault troops, since you just won't break because you always use your full leadership.

Anyways, welcome aboard to the hobby that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

thanks!

One use for Grim Resolve is good for a "Speed Bump" unit. Say you want another turn shooting at the big scary gribbly*, Run your 5 man squad out into it's path and make sure the rest of your army has a good LOS to them. When said gribbly massacres the speed bump unit (which will not run) the Gribbly will be in Line of Sight of several shooty units with no movement left and your player turn coming up. It takes skill to pull off and is expensive in that you lose the unit, but it does work.


*Big Scary Gribbly can consist of any HtH unit that can eat 3 or 4 times its points, Examples include Thunderwolf Cav, Juggers of khorne, Stealers, etc.

i see how this could benefit, i will have to playtest it. thanks

I really like playing 500 point games as well but your not going to really see much RW/DW action in it. I totally forgot about DW knights as well lol, thanks.

this is true, my 5man DW runs 245 by itself...

[Pyro X]

yes the hits from HoW count to see who won combat.

[Master Avoghai]

I do want allies b/c it gives me a lot of what i want, and less of what i don't. However, I also want allies because I have a bunch of tacs I don't want to use as DA, so I figured starting another Marine army was my next best bet. RG just seems to fit best with what I enjoy while I grow them. Especially b/c I will only be getting more if the trend I am on continues. I just got Assault on Black Reach from ebay. 10 more tacs! ARRRRGH!

 

It's just what I've said : cheat code. When I don't want to play with a low stat player in FIFA 14 and want to start with a top player from the beginning I use cheat code. When I don't want to start with just a gun in call of duty and want everything powered up I use a cheat code.

 

So you don't want to play with the disadvantages of DA and want to nullify or reduce them, you use cheat code... Erm allied matrix.

 

Sure you CAN do that, it's allowed, technically. But you'll discover that the hobby is full of players considering the game is not just putting models of whatever type on the table and throw dice. They give much importance to their fluff and the coherency of their army. So seeing that someone try to negate the drawbacks of his army when they simply live with theirs and try to play with them could leave a bad impression and not a good game.

 

I totally understand that you like RG and want to play them too, I myself own an army of Thousand Sons and an army of tzeentch daemons (and I feel the iron Hands more appealing to me). But I play them separately not "because I want to negate a drawback". Sometimes I ask my opponent if he'll bother me playing a TS/daemons alliance for a try.

 

Alliance is the exception, not the rule. I prefer warn you to prevent a disappointment when you'll face new players.

[Pyro X]

If you do play allies its all well and good but the big drawback is having to know the balance of your army your fielding. A lot of people know what DA lack and know to cover our butts on that one area (ranged and fliers mostly). If you add in toouch of an ally, say tau, you now have to worry more about losing the ability to do what Da do well in. Say you run ravenwing. Sammy on jetbike plus black knights and 3 RAS then add in allies of tau gun line. It would work but if the other side knows how to counter 1 part of your army really well he can ignore the other part at first and will table you if your not careful. If your looking at running DW, DW, and dualwing; they work really well at spearheading. Meaning all your army targets a weak point, or their nadty models, and the works together and kills as it goes taking out target after target. IMO if your are starting out you should learn one army before additional allies. Because it may read good on paper but if you can't get it to work good people tend to get bummed about it.

[Landrick]

I see what you guys are saying. I still like the idea of allies if done from a fluff perspective, but I see where it is used as a crutch to make armies with fewer weaknesses. That, coupled with the new Dataslate made me realize what my Greenwing was really missing: a command squad with a banner. Those banners really bump them up a notch (also more transports). So now I am thinking of scratching the Raven Guard idea (I would have to have a whole new codex anyway) and really learning to play to the strength of Grim Resolve. Let me ask you this, would the reclusiam command squad (command squad, chaplain, razorback) be a good addition to my army of 2 DW, 1 RW, 2 Dreads, and about 3 Tacs (plus a chapter master and a librarian I am thinking of putting on a bike)?

 

Thank you guys for this so far, it has really got me thinking and helped me develop my understanding.

[Pyro X]

With that force you could really do anything. If you want a good command with banners we have the best banners in the game hands down. It really depends what you want to do with what one you use. If both termies are DWA and your banner is in the rear with the TAC squads then go with dakka banner. In not a fan on the one that gives crusader but it could be useful. Also fort banner is good because who doesn't like area FNP? Librarians on bikes are amazing, esp if they are holding PSG behind tanks giving them a 4++. Aside from belail and sammael, librarians are our HQ bread and butter, IMO. From the things you listed I would say you got a good start to a list just you may think about how you would deal with av 12+. You have 2 dreads and the heavy weapons in tacs, but you may need a little more.

[Pyro X]

A few things you may look into is the codex inquisition and scouts. Add 1-2 inquisition into termies look like fun and people always over look how good scouts can be.

[Master Avoghai]

The problem with transports is their capacity at giving easy first blood. Moreover the evolution in v6 make them really unuseful.

 

In v5, you used to be allowed to move 12" and stay in the transport during turn one the disembark move and charge.

Now you cannot do such thing you must expose your squad to enemy fire if you want to be able to charge the following turn.

 

I myself prefer a drop pod with techmarine with harness and bolter flamer, 8 tactical with flamer and sgt with bolter flamer.

 

It makes 4 flamer template + rapid fire bolter on the arrival. Enough to saturate an enemy troop and take position on an objective while the rest of your army arrive in support.

 

Maybe your opponent will get first blood by intercepting the pod, but it's a poker try. If he misses, your squad will get it first.

 

I would also avoid the dreads... Unless you take a ven with MM (BS5 podding dread mmmmmmh). With low count of armour your dreads will be easy target otherwise.

 

few things you may look into is the codex inquisition and scouts. Add 1-2 inquisition into termies look like fun and people always over look how good scouts can be.

Scouts are a waste. As costly as marines with BS and armour worse. There's nothing they can do that a tactical cannot do better.

[Pyro X]

With using pods, if you drop them where his anti air stuff has LOS blocked, he can't fire at you because he fires at the END of your movement phase.

[Landrick]

With that force you could really do anything. If you want a good command with banners we have the best banners in the game hands down. It really depends what you want to do with what one you use. If both termies are DWA and your banner is in the rear with the TAC squads then go with dakka banner. In not a fan on the one that gives crusader but it could be useful. Also fort banner is good because who doesn't like area FNP? Librarians on bikes are amazing, esp if they are holding PSG behind tanks giving them a 4++. Aside from belail and sammael, librarians are our HQ bread and butter, IMO. From the things you listed I would say you got a good start to a list just you may think about how you would deal with av 12+. You have 2 dreads and the heavy weapons in tacs, but you may need a little more.

I like to have 1 or more ML on the dreads and usually at least one in my tacs. Also, I give my RW sarge meltas. Would that cover what you are talking about?

 

A few things you may look into is the codex inquisition and scouts. Add 1-2 inquisition into termies look like fun and people always over look how good scouts can be.

codex inquisition does look like a lot of fun, i think i will be checking it out before too long

 

 

The problem with transports is their capacity at giving easy first blood. Moreover the evolution in v6 make them really unuseful.

 

In v5, you used to be allowed to move 12" and stay in the transport during turn one the disembark move and charge.

Now you cannot do such thing you must expose your squad to enemy fire if you want to be able to charge the following turn.

 

I myself prefer a drop pod with techmarine with harness and bolter flamer, 8 tactical with flamer and sgt with bolter flamer.

 

It makes 4 flamer template + rapid fire bolter on the arrival. Enough to saturate an enemy troop and take position on an objective while the rest of your army arrive in support.

 

Maybe your opponent will get first blood by intercepting the pod, but it's a poker try. If he misses, your squad will get it first.

 

I would also avoid the dreads... Unless you take a ven with MM (BS5 podding dread mmmmmmh). With low count of armour your dreads will be easy target otherwise.

 

few things you may look into is the codex inquisition and scouts. Add 1-2 inquisition into termies look like fun and people always over look how good scouts can be.

Scouts are a waste. As costly as marines with BS and armour worse. There's nothing they can do that a tactical cannot do better.

scouts do seem.... lackluster. transports however, i mainly want for their namesake. I found my guys were unable to move very far or fast b/c they were not in vehicles, unlike his. However, his vehicle i blitzed with my RW was quickly shutdown.

 

With using pods, if you drop them where his anti air stuff has LOS blocked, he can't fire at you because he fires at the END of your movement phase.

I dont really know what this means....

 

 

So I got the Reclusiam Command Squad! Does anyone know if the knew Dataslate is compatible with our codex? And if so, is it worth it?

[Pyro X]

from the 1st and 2nd point on your latest post. you could use a ML dread but just know how easy dreads are to get killed now. they can do really well or they can get killed fast. think if u ran 2-3 dreads together. now think of many armys have plasma or stronger. granted you could put them in cover but take the point cost of a dread and what it does vs a dev squad. you have a tank that could die with 1 hit vs a squad that has lots of wounds it can send into other members of the squad. yes a dread has relentless being a walker but dev has LOTS of weapons to include anti air missles. Another thought would be having inqusitor with a psycannon (I'm making 2 for when I run deathwing, I can't wait) because they hit like a truck filled with trucks.

 

with pods. Say you your going up vs tau. they have alot of stuff that will shoot at you on your turn when you deep strike. and they would do it at the end of your turn. problem is that have to be able to SEE you to do it. so lets say your using a drop pod and you wanna merk a riptide. he's sitting beside a building or something. drop on the other side of it so he can't target you totally blocking line of sight, now he can't shoot you on your turn when you deep strike. another thought would be if your DWA termies in. you could drop them down near where the other side is in "open" ground and then move a tank in front and block LOS (line of sight) from the big nasty that could kill them on your turn with interceptor. then the big nasty is blocked and you can do 1 of 2 things. remain blocking that target the next shooting phase unless it moves keep moving faster with that tank going flat out (granted it can't shoot now) and then the termies can fire at that target and its twin linked because of the DWA.

[Master Avoghai]

scouts do seem.... lackluster. transports however, i mainly want for their namesake. I found my guys were unable to move very far or fast b/c they were not in vehicles, unlike his. However, his vehicle i blitzed with my RW was quickly shutdown.

 

Yes but with A11 they can be pinned right in first turn.

Say you run your rhino and get the first turn. Then move 12".

Your opponent shoot at your rhino and destroy it. Your squad must proceed an emergency disembakment and you cannot do anything the following turn. Finally when you do the the sum of what you've moved in 2 turns it doesn't really make a difference with footsloggers.

6 + run (turn1) + 6 (turn2) vs 12 + disembarking (turn1) + 0 (turn 2)

 

You've just given an easy VP in this situation.

Concerning the RZB : I've never got a RZB for its transport capacity. I've always taken them for the fact of being a support TL lascannon that can move 6" and shoot. It's always empty and far from enemy's lines.

 

So I got the Reclusiam Command Squad! Does anyone know if the knew Dataslate is compatible with our codex? And if so, is it worth it?

 

More or less... This is a vanilla datasheet. It implies that the profile/cost/ special rules are from codex SM and not codex DA.

As a matter of consequence, you have not access to the chapter relics such as Mass of redemption of banner of devastation. Or the inner circle rule. On the other hand, you can use graviton guns...

 

But they can be used with DA for sure. Last thing : you cannot put another IC in this squad and embark them. As a separate formation from your primary detachment, they are considered as battle brothers allies.

[Trevak Dal]

Regarding allies, my main army is Tau (the only thing keeping me from going 100% Enclave is how much I like the Shadowsun model-my favorite 40k model besides The Red Terror) with my Red Corsairs being the second army.  I find I forget rules for each army.

 

If I do end up taking my Tau as allies-I use Enclave rules (Suits as Troops) and basically get autocannon or -1strength Plasma gun havoks/chosen that are really, really maneuverable to mitigate problems with rules and I have a sticky note on the base of my Crisis suits that says "Have you Jump Shoot Jumped me this turn?"

 

As far as it being a cheat code...it's plainly GW attempting to get people to buy more models, but it could also be a shift of making 40k more like Magic the Gathering.  Like how by fluff you shouldn't have Black and White decks...but do because of some nasty combinations.

I'm tempted to get the Ghost Warriors one so I can keep the Wraithguard because I like how they look and they don't have crappy rules anymore, and give the Wraith lords and Wraith Knight to my friend for Christmas/His Birthday.

[Pyro X]

Minus 1 str plasma guns that DON'T overheat lol. The list that Trevak is talking about is a problem DA will run into going up vs. We will not be able to out shoot them so we must get in close combat to win. At 2000 points ravenwing has the best chance vs it with DW not far behind. Make sure you keep both your army list and the other guys list in mind while you deploy terrain. Thing about if you was running his army where you would want it, and try and put it somewhere else. If he puts a building he can shoot from in a deployment zone try and take that side from him when picking sides or place stuff you can hide behind (blocking full line of sight because marker lights can deny cover saves) so you have him shooting you less. I still don't like the loop hole of being able to ally codex and supplements. What's the use of "you can use X model with supplement" and the you ally with your own army and then run it anyways. That's like saying if cypher was an ally (fluff aside) in a supplement but you couldn't run RW, DW, or named characters then you just added codex DA and did it anyways.

[Landrick]

Thanks for all the help guys, it has really got me off to a good start!