First bans in tournaments in place, implications for Chaos

[Nehekhare]

It is not the fault of GW, they have the sole goal to drive their sales and they will use every dirty trick in their book

 

by that logic you could reach some very unpleasant conclusions...

[Sception]

I used to exclusively play with friends.  Sadly, all my friends who used to play 40k have left 40k for minis games that are 'better games'.  now pick up games with semi-strangers at the local store is all I have if I want to play 40k at all.

[Chaeron]

I know a tournament I don't desire to play in...!

[Smurfalypse]

I would like to say that as a tournament player I severely dislike "banning" anything from any army. Here are my reasons.

Lets go with what he was hinting at.

#1. Heldrake - 0-1 or ban or something. CSM have one of the lowest win percentages of any codex (around 32% win), Heldrakes do not actually win you games. They are good and annoying, but they do not win you games.

#2. Remove the teeth from CSM and you literally remove the entire codex as it is very flawed. If you are at a tournament and losing to CSM you are doing something wrong or just playing a better player

#3. Restrictions to the amount of psychic levels your army can have. Great, you talk about Heldrakes "removing entire builds from the game" but then you inlist a ban that will do the exact same thing. Justification? You do not like it and are willing to let one thing suffer and not the other. Very hypocritical.

#4. What if I wanted to run Eldar with two Farseers on foot and a few Warlocks on foot in an infantry based list? I am now unable to do that, you are removing possible builds from the game. (I played against a list like that at NOVA Open this year, he placed in the top 50 with his odd ass list ).

#5. Just remove the entire Escalation book from tourney play if it is that upsetting. I agree that D-Weapons are a bit bad in this environment, but do not pick and choose, just remove the entire book to make things square. So now Eldar have zero super heavies? Seems totally fair to them compared to IG or Necron.

#6. The Fortification book is actually EXTREMELY well written. This is surprising when you directly compare it to the Escalation book which is just terrible in general (not even talking about D-Weapons, the book just has no content or anything that resembles "fun", whereas the Fortification stuff screams "wow, that is frigging cool". I agree with the group things being taken out of tourney play as they are obviously meant to be played in a narrative game or an APOC level game.

#7. Really? Dedicated transport flyers? That is your complaint still? Who really cares about that stuff anymore, none of those transport flyer lists win at tourney. What about harder to kill, spammable, skimmer transports that the Eldar have?

My point is that you can pick and choose to ban stuff all you want but in the end something else will take its place or fall through the cracks and replace what is considered "op".

You ban Screamer-star and Serpent Spam has a free walk to the finals. You put a limit on how many Psychers an army can have and 90% of Daemon lists can be thrown out the window as Princes become unplayable and they will never be taken over a Lord of Change or a GUO. Heralds are good when you take a few but are usually set up as Psychers, so now there is a limit and I can only take two that are psychers. . . Might as well throw out those lists as well. It just goes in a large circle and is so susceptible to bias from folks who have poor games vs a certain type of list.

All I gotta say is I am glad I do not live on the west coast and I really hope the east does not adopt a similar take on the game, this is a very very poor way to go and is a path that leads to a less fulfilling game in general. Just my two cents

[Smurfalypse]

Grimoire isn't even the only re-rollable 2+ save, iirc eldar can do that, too.

 

Better would have been restricting the grimoire to only affect daemon saves, rather than invulnerable saves in general.  Oh, well.

 

We can count on the drake getting the 0-1 treatment as well.  Also, unless they amend their dataslate rules, Be'lakor would either A: take up your whole allied detachment, or B: be unfieldable at all, since he doesn't come with the troop slot required for allied detachments.  Hopefully their final version moves the restriction to dataslate formations rather than dataslates in general.

 

Oh, and the bar on self allying via the BL codex, which feels kind of arbitrary, I guess?  Especially if they're already presumably putting a 0-1 on riptides?  Other than riptide spam, what problems were even created by self allying?

 

This is kinda what I was talking about. Will anyone run BL now? No, because it has been removed from play due to someone who is NOT a developer making a rule to put an end to something else. Basically you take out Riptide spam and remove all other army Supplements from the game. Few people ran it before and it will never been seen in their tourney scene with this type of ruling :*(

[Slayer le Boucher]

Wow...

 

So they ban a particular object of a book that is allready very subpar, that can only target Models with the Deamon rule( so you can't like say use it on termies to give them a 3++), while SM can play 2-3 units of Hammerantors with ALL a PERSISTENT with NO COUNTER BALANCE 3++...,really?

 

Was the perspectif of ONE DEAMON unit of the army to have a 3++ so Terryfiyng?...

 

Now about D-weapons its good to change it, but like some already said, just don't play the escalation book.

 

0-1 limitation, i personnaly thing that GW should have continued to use it, not with has many units has before( because looking back in the old 3rd-4th Dexes, there where a lot of units that was 0-1), but on some units that feel like they would be Spam-abused getting a 0-1 per 1000pts or something, wouldn't have been so bad.

 

You play 2000pts?, okey then your 0-1 units becomes 0-2 units etc.

 

But yeah its something we can't do anything about it now, its too late.

 

Oh and while you are here ADB i wanted to say that i finaly have the Betrayer book in my hands( only was released this week in Belgium), i'm not very far, really just the beginning, but i love it.

 

I really hope that when the World Eaters Supp comes out, you will be on the fluff like with Black Legion Supp, that i really did enjoy, the first bit of Chaos fluff outside Black Library novels, since 3Rd Ed that i actually liked.

 

Oh and if you can do something about the Skalathrax incident...its a really stupid bit of fluff, Marines getting scared to freeze at -100, when they can go into the Void of space with their Power armors..., silliest thing i've read, and thats not counting Draigo fluff...

[Smurfalypse]

Wow...

 

So they ban a particular object of a book that is allready very subpar, that can only target Models with the Deamon rule( so you can't like say use it on termies to give them a 3++), while SM can play 2-3 units of Hammerantors with ALL a PERSISTENT with NO COUNTER BALANCE 3++...,really?

 

Was the perspectif of ONE DEAMON unit of the army to have a 3++ so Terryfiyng?...

 

Now about D-weapons its good to change it, but like some already said, just don't play the escalation book.

 

0-1 limitation, i personnaly thing that GW should have continued to use it, not with has many units has before( because looking back in the old 3rd-4th Dexes, there where a lot of units that was 0-1), but on some units that feel like they would be Spam-abused getting a 0-1 per 1000pts or something, wouldn't have been so bad.

 

You play 2000pts?, okey then your 0-1 units becomes 0-2 units etc.

 

But yeah its something we can't do anything about it now, its too late.

 

Oh and while you are here ADB i wanted to say that i finaly have the Betrayer book in my hands( only was released this week in Belgium), i'm not very far, really just the beginning, but i love it.

 

I really hope that when the World Eaters Supp comes out, you will be on the fluff like with Black Legion Supp, that i really did enjoy, the first bit of Chaos fluff outside Black Library novels, since 3Rd Ed that i actually liked.

 

Oh and if you can do something about the Skalathrax incident...its a really stupid bit of fluff, Marines getting scared to freeze at -100, when they can go into the Void of space with their Power armors..., silliest thing i've read, and thats not counting Draigo fluff...

 

The Grimoire is probably the best single item in the game for any given codex, do not downplay how good it really is :P

Though I strongly disagree with a ban list, especially one that encompasses a single item, it is good but it is hardly the only thing worthy of banning if we are talking a "scale" in power. 

[zyl-]

I actually want to see more of this, and here is why.

 

This is THE BIGGEST voice that can possibly tell GW that their rules are so broken that they are unplayable. If tournaments begin to feel the need to place limits in their games to make them even worth playing, that's an extremely poor reflection on the quality of the rules written by GW, and it's something they better damn well pay attention to. This is bad in the short term, yes, but it brightens the horizon.

[Smurfalypse]

I actually want to see more of this, and here is why.

 

This is THE BIGGEST voice that can possibly tell GW that their rules are so broken that they are unplayable. If tournaments begin to feel the need to place limits in their games to make them even worth playing, that's an extremely poor reflection on the quality of the rules written by GW, and it's something they better damn well pay attention to. This is bad in the short term, yes, but it brightens the horizon.

 

lol I actually like 6th edition more than 3rd, 4th and 5th. . . I think it is very fun and rewarding both in my home games and in a tournament. 

The rules are decently well written, we just need some FAQs on the grey area stuff (which all games like this have, do not fool yourself). If GW is guilty of anything, it is ignoring the fundamental duty of rules clarifications.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Wow...

So they ban a particular object of a book that is allready very subpar, that can only target Models with the Deamon rule( so you can't like say use it on termies to give them a 3++), while SM can play 2-3 units of Hammerantors with ALL a PERSISTENT with NO COUNTER BALANCE 3++...,really?

Was the perspectif of ONE DEAMON unit of the army to have a 3++ so Terryfiyng?...

Now about D-weapons its good to change it, but like some already said, just don't play the escalation book.

0-1 limitation, i personnaly thing that GW should have continued to use it, not with has many units has before( because looking back in the old 3rd-4th Dexes, there where a lot of units that was 0-1), but on some units that feel like they would be Spam-abused getting a 0-1 per 1000pts or something, wouldn't have been so bad.

You play 2000pts?, okey then your 0-1 units becomes 0-2 units etc.

But yeah its something we can't do anything about it now, its too late.

Oh and while you are here ADB i wanted to say that i finaly have the Betrayer book in my hands( only was released this week in Belgium), i'm not very far, really just the beginning, but i love it.

I really hope that when the World Eaters Supp comes out, you will be on the fluff like with Black Legion Supp, that i really did enjoy, the first bit of Chaos fluff outside Black Library novels, since 3Rd Ed that i actually liked.

Oh and if you can do something about the Skalathrax incident...its a really stupid bit of fluff, Marines getting scared to freeze at -100, when they can go into the Void of space with their Power armors..., silliest thing i've read, and thats not counting Draigo fluff...

The Grimoire is probably the best single item in the game for any given codex, do not downplay how good it really is

Though I strongly disagree with a ban list, especially one that encompasses a single item, it is good but it is hardly the only thing worthy of banning if we are talking a "scale" in power.

Then you really don't know about a lot of things in a fews codexes...

Giving a 3++ for one turn to a unit if you don't fail the testn in wich case your ++ save becomes worse..., for a 35pts item, while in another book you have a 35pts item that give a 3++, EW an AW on a model.

Or simply a piece of wargear that can gives 3++ to whole units of 2 saves dudes...

Yeah thats overpowered...

[Scribe]

Its not the ability to buff to a 3++ that is the problem though is it. Its not the item in a vacuum thats the problem at all.

[Sception]

It's not the conditional 3++ that's a problem.  It's the 2++ rerollable with a reroll on the book to make it not nearly so conditional at all.  I agree banning is excessive, though.  Simply change it to only apply to daemon saves, rather than affecting any old invulnerable save, or just give it a 'max 3++' note like the MoT.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I actually want to see more of this, and here is why.

 

This is THE BIGGEST voice that can possibly tell GW that their rules are so broken that they are unplayable. If tournaments begin to feel the need to place limits in their games to make them even worth playing, that's an extremely poor reflection on the quality of the rules written by GW, and it's something they better damn well pay attention to. This is bad in the short term, yes, but it brightens the horizon.

 

I think GW is probably immune to anything but people not buying their products. The constant and steady flow of vitriol from a loud section of the player base with a skewed perception of their own importance to the game has probably made them numb to internet chatter.

[MayorDaley]

 

 

ADB: That's a fine sentiment, and I never really put any stock in the claims that GW are 'ruining their game on purpose' in some sort of 'hamfisted money grab'.

But still, there needs to be some structure & balance to a game's rules, or 'let them play however they want' turns into just waving the models around shouting 'pew pew'.  40k feels like it's reaching a point where it isn't even a game anymore, where I can't play with my models 'however I want' because I can't actually play with my models at all.  All my friends have quit the game outright, and it's getting harder and harder for me to find pickup games at the local store.

 

Well, here's the thing. I play in a huge campaign, and I play with a lot of people, all of varying skill and experience with modelling, painting, and gaming. Which is what I've done for years with various people, in various games.

 

And half the time, I'm left looking at a lot of the complaints on here - with stuff like Titans with one foot on a Skyshield, etc. - and I don't think the rules are broken, I think "Who in the Christing balls are you people playing with? How is that fun for you?"

 

Every game has its exploits. And again, I don't champion GW's rules quality, nor do I attack it. I'm indifferent to it - it's a way to play games in the 40K setting, and that's all I need from it. It does that, no matter how many times guides tell me Possessed Marines suck, mine still kill other units and that's fine for me. People have the ugly reaction sometimes of assuming any opinion that isn't vitriolic melancholy about how terrible it all is, is somehow naive or misinformed. That listing all the ways void shields can be abused is "telling it like it is", and the only reality.

 

I don't need to say everything's great or that everything sucks, because the truth is neither. Changes don't have to be universally loved or hated. Maybe I'm some magic demographic were the rules as they're written let me and my friends play games in the 40K setting, but not for anyone else who's now lamenting that someone might bring a Baneblade to their tables. Given the discussion lately, am I supposed to believe me and my friends are the only people not screwing each other over with the rules and terrified of someone spending 1,000 points and a million hours painting up a Lord of Skulls? Now, objectively, I know it's because the vast majority of the hobby isn't worried the way the bleeding edge of the internet loves to dramatise stuff. But more personally, I'm starting to think a lot of you just play with jackholes. I sincerely doubt I have the only peer group in the world where someone standing a Titan on Skyshield would be laughed out of the campaign. Why would you even do something like that? Why would you ever bring an army of raw, unfair devastation to a 40K game with your friends?

 

And if your answer is that "I don't play with my friends" or "I mostly play at tournaments" then try to respect the fact that the overwhelming majority of the hobby doesn't function like that, no matter how it looks online, no matter how loud tournament players are, and how their guides are considered accepted wisdom. Other people are allowed opinions. Chrissakes, we have to put up with tournament wisdom and THIS IS THE END TIMES enough. If you have to be told not to bring an army consisting of three Baneblades to a game of 40K, then I'm sorry, that makes you someone I don't want to play with rather than making the rules awful. And you know what? Bring those Baneblades. We can still make a cool scenario out of it. The game's more like Rogue Trader now than it's been since Rogue Trader first showed up.

 

We may want to be careful that we don't reach a point where anything even remotely neutral - not even massively positive, but simply not WOE, OH NOE - becomes considered something that needs to be argued against. 

 

 

@A D-B, Here is the entire thread: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34902-A-serious-problem-with-the-Firestorm-Redoubt, but the relevent quote is from Paulo187: Yeah, we know we take RAW too far and we are rightfully ashamed by our actions. But what else are OCD gaming nerds supposed to do? We can't help it. If we had social skills sufficient enough to come to a sensible and mutually agreeable arrangement we wouldn't be playing with toy soldiers on a Saturday night. Or is that too much of a generalization? Man, I wish chicks liked me...

 

You ask who would use Titans with one foot on a Skyshield,  and I think that quote explains the attitude of alot of fellow 40k enthusiasts, or at least the ones I come across.

 

Cheers

[Sception]

This isn't going to make a difference to games workshop. But if one of these formats proves successful in creating a varied, engaging meta for 40k (haha good luck, no but really - good luck), then it might catch on in local settings and essentially become an unofficial but accepted rules supplement for casual pick up games, and frankly that would be just as good.  I would love a format, tournament or otherwise, that would allow me to field more or less what I'd like, against an opponent fielding more or less the same, and still, you know, play an actual game, where the game could be fun as a game, even if that format wasn't coming from GW.

 

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that I want 40k to be a game game, rather than a roleplaying game, because as far as I'm concerned the actual 40k roleplaying games work much better for 'forging a narrative' in the 40k setting.  A little more mordheim, a little less Inquisitor, see?  Something closer to where Fantasy is?  I'm not asking for anything out of scale, here.  The standard I'm looking for has been set by other GW games.

[Nehekhare]

0-1 daemon princes?

0-1 chapter masters?

[Spacefrisian]

I can get the ban of D weapons, all that other stuff seems nonsense to me.

 

If they do wanna ban something than at least make sure Vulkan is on the ban list as he brings free master crafted weapons for all characters, better flamers and better meltas for his detachment.

 

Might seem nothing, but now consider that each of this would cost around 15 points per item to do so, you are staring at an army that gets 300+ points for free.

[Smurfalypse]

Wow...

So they ban a particular object of a book that is allready very subpar, that can only target Models with the Deamon rule( so you can't like say use it on termies to give them a 3++), while SM can play 2-3 units of Hammerantors with ALL a PERSISTENT with NO COUNTER BALANCE 3++...,really?

Was the perspectif of ONE DEAMON unit of the army to have a 3++ so Terryfiyng?...

Now about D-weapons its good to change it, but like some already said, just don't play the escalation book.

0-1 limitation, i personnaly thing that GW should have continued to use it, not with has many units has before( because looking back in the old 3rd-4th Dexes, there where a lot of units that was 0-1), but on some units that feel like they would be Spam-abused getting a 0-1 per 1000pts or something, wouldn't have been so bad.

You play 2000pts?, okey then your 0-1 units becomes 0-2 units etc.

But yeah its something we can't do anything about it now, its too late.

Oh and while you are here ADB i wanted to say that i finaly have the Betrayer book in my hands( only was released this week in Belgium), i'm not very far, really just the beginning, but i love it.

I really hope that when the World Eaters Supp comes out, you will be on the fluff like with Black Legion Supp, that i really did enjoy, the first bit of Chaos fluff outside Black Library novels, since 3Rd Ed that i actually liked.

Oh and if you can do something about the Skalathrax incident...its a really stupid bit of fluff, Marines getting scared to freeze at -100, when they can go into the Void of space with their Power armors..., silliest thing i've read, and thats not counting Draigo fluff...

The Grimoire is probably the best single item in the game for any given codex, do not downplay how good it really is

Though I strongly disagree with a ban list, especially one that encompasses a single item, it is good but it is hardly the only thing worthy of banning if we are talking a "scale" in power.

Then you really don't know about a lot of things in a fews codexes...

Giving a 3++ for one turn to a unit if you don't fail the testn in wich case your ++ save becomes worse..., for a 35pts item, while in another book you have a 35pts item that give a 3++, EW an AW on a model.

Or simply a piece of wargear that can gives 3++ to whole units of 2 saves dudes...

Yeah thats overpowered...

No need to get snippy about it.

This particular piece of wargear is indeed probably the best single item in the game. It leads up to a 2++ invuln that is fairly simple to get and that usually outright wins games on its own.

Take a few rolls on Divination and hope for the 4++

Take Fateweaver and use his reroll ability for the Grimoire roll as needed

Basically you get your 2++ in about 70sih% of your games, so it is very very much a powerful piece of gear

At NOVA I did not see a single Daemon player without one (uncluding me).

[Kol Saresk]

Guys, I feel the need to point out that the bans/restrictions above, are just some of what Feast of Blades is doing, not all of it. As of the writing of the article, the issue was still being discussed and further pursued.

[Sception]

It's not even nevessarily some of what they're doing. It's a preliminary draft list subject to change based on feedback and play testing.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Wow...

So they ban a particular object of a book that is allready very subpar, that can only target Models with the Deamon rule( so you can't like say use it on termies to give them a 3++), while SM can play 2-3 units of Hammerantors with ALL a PERSISTENT with NO COUNTER BALANCE 3++...,really?

Was the perspectif of ONE DEAMON unit of the army to have a 3++ so Terryfiyng?...

Now about D-weapons its good to change it, but like some already said, just don't play the escalation book.

0-1 limitation, i personnaly thing that GW should have continued to use it, not with has many units has before( because looking back in the old 3rd-4th Dexes, there where a lot of units that was 0-1), but on some units that feel like they would be Spam-abused getting a 0-1 per 1000pts or something, wouldn't have been so bad.

You play 2000pts?, okey then your 0-1 units becomes 0-2 units etc.

But yeah its something we can't do anything about it now, its too late.

Oh and while you are here ADB i wanted to say that i finaly have the Betrayer book in my hands( only was released this week in Belgium), i'm not very far, really just the beginning, but i love it.

I really hope that when the World Eaters Supp comes out, you will be on the fluff like with Black Legion Supp, that i really did enjoy, the first bit of Chaos fluff outside Black Library novels, since 3Rd Ed that i actually liked.

Oh and if you can do something about the Skalathrax incident...its a really stupid bit of fluff, Marines getting scared to freeze at -100, when they can go into the Void of space with their Power armors..., silliest thing i've read, and thats not counting Draigo fluff...

The Grimoire is probably the best single item in the game for any given codex, do not downplay how good it really is

Though I strongly disagree with a ban list, especially one that encompasses a single item, it is good but it is hardly the only thing worthy of banning if we are talking a "scale" in power.

Then you really don't know about a lot of things in a fews codexes...

Giving a 3++ for one turn to a unit if you don't fail the testn in wich case your ++ save becomes worse..., for a 35pts item, while in another book you have a 35pts item that give a 3++, EW an AW on a model.

Or simply a piece of wargear that can gives 3++ to whole units of 2 saves dudes...

Yeah thats overpowered...

No need to get snippy about it.

This particular piece of wargear is indeed probably the best single item in the game. It leads up to a 2++ invuln that is fairly simple to get and that usually outright wins games on its own.

Take a few rolls on Divination and hope for the 4++

Take Fateweaver and use his reroll ability for the Grimoire roll as needed

Basically you get your 2++ in about 70sih% of your games, so it is very very much a powerful piece of gear

At NOVA I did not see a single Daemon player without one (uncluding me).

I din't intend to make my post snippy, sorry.

But what you are saying about Fateweaver, the grimoir and all that, it is a really costy combo, its the kind of thing that i really, really won't consider taking because of the cost, i like things to be under or just above the 200pts bar, thats my psychological limitation for a unit that can do good, but that i won't cry about it if lost.

When this famous Deathstar thing with 2++ rerollable, gets me 1's two time in a row, its death, just like any other models, and like the Law of Murphy says, it always happens when it shouldn't happen.

Malisteen- i thought that the Grimoire allready did only function on Deamons..., i don't have the dex on hand(din't even play once with it, because of how disgusted i was with it, so i don't even remember where i did put that book), but in my memories the grimoire rule specificaly stated that only Friendly OR Ennemy models with the Deamon rule could be affected by it...

[Spacefrisian]

I have to contact Fifa btw, they should ban some players from playing as they are to good.

[daveNYC]

About the only thing I see happening out of this is that Taudar will still end up on the top of the pile, and daemons will drop in rankings leading people to scoff that daemon players aren't that good and were just using the grimoir as a crutch.

[hornywingythingy]

Honestly, more and more I'm in favour of some form of overarching comp, much like 7th ed fantasy led to an upsurge in etc comp being used. Either that or instigate highlander. :cuss, Not even the throne of skulls is gonna allow super heavies by the sounds of things.

[arkagl]

While I like some of these descisions. They are just being cry babies about the new rules. Instead of writing on forums email Feast of Blade and tell them, if they get a million email from different ppl not you spamming them a million times they'll listen.

 

And I mention this b4 on the rumor forum but I can see GW putting their foot down on the GTs removing all their stores associated with them from carrying their products. GW is out to make money and if you're gonna hurt their income they're gonna hurt you. They've done it b4 and they'll do it again.