First bans in tournaments in place, implications for Chaos

[Tenebris]

From experience, there will always be powerplay armies and there will always be powerplayers. All in all it is a choice that everyone of us has to make on his own. Do you prefer to have a cordial relationship with the other players, present yourself as an enjoyable person to play with or against, or do you care only for your score on the leaderboards and you prefer victory over everything else. In my personal case, having the rare opportunity to be living near the border of three different countries and speaking four different languages, I very much prefer to work on my public relations rather winning tournaments, the first gets me more invites and more people to play with in the long term. It is a very simple logic and I tend to favor the "community" mentality over the "competitive" mentality, but I am NOT, not by a long shot, a casual player, since most if not all of my games are usually played in tournaments, campaigns or in organized events.

 

I was never for bans or house rules that limit the models and units on the board, we speak of Warhammer 40k, the very universe and background strive to go over the top whenever it is possible, but as a soon to be lawyer I came to understand one cardinal thing of human society, the social sanction is far more weighty than an administrative or a legal sanction. So do you have powerplayers in your area that exploit every dirty trick to win? Well ignore them when possible, present them your point of view if you have to endure them, or team up with others to teach them a lesson or two on how a real general fights. 

 

And afterall, since when was war fair? 

 

I much more prefer to counter hard armies for they provide me with an interesting challenge, both in strategy, tactics and overall generalship, the harder the battle is, the truer the lesson learned will be. 

 

And I play Chaos Space Marines, every battle is a struggle...

 

My 2 cents...

[Wade Garrett]

Warning: Hot air, hyperbole, and dubious leaps of what might pass for logic in dim light to follow

So now if I play this competive activity with a goal of actually "winning" instead of me and the person across the table sharing feelings of mutual enjoyment in a nurturing supportive manner so that both of us can grow closer I need to have a scarlet "P" for powergamer stitched to my chest and be shipped to some terrifying combination of Galt's Gulch and a leper colony where I and my fellow sociopaths won't taint everyone else's hug fest with our "winning".

 

Because doggone it, it hurts people's feelings to lose! You spent hours painting that Rhino, how is it fair that Ebenezer Garrett's Heldrake takes it off the board on turn two? Feelings hurt! Feelings hurt! GET THIS PERSON WARM MILK, AND A PLATE OF COOKIES! SOMEONE PAT THEM ON THE SHOULDER AND SAY, THERE, THERE!

[daboarder]

I've always wanted to run a beer and pretzels style event. 

 

Have full games with no comp, but also have NO prizes for placing, instead have prize support for "best army theme" "best painted" "best fluff" things like that. 

[zyl-]

 

Warning: Hot air, hyperbole, and dubious leaps of what might pass for logic in dim light to follow

 

So now if I play this competive activity with a goal of actually "winning" instead of me and the person across the table sharing feelings of mutual enjoyment in a nurturing supportive manner so that both of us can grow closer I need to have a scarlet "P" for powergamer stitched to my chest and be shipped to some terrifying combination of Galt's Gulch and a leper colony where I and my fellow sociopaths won't taint everyone else's hug fest with our "winning".

 

Because doggone it, it hurts people's feelings to lose! You spent hours painting that Rhino, how is it fair that Ebenezer Garrett's Heldrake takes it off the board on turn two? Feelings hurt! Feelings hurt! GET THIS PERSON WARM MILK, AND A PLATE OF COOKIES! SOMEONE PAT THEM ON THE SHOULDER AND SAY, THERE, THERE!

quoted for truth

 

I've actually decided that I'm glad I play chaos at my local store because I would decisively crush my local meta if I played an army that was actually worth it's salt in the min/max scene. Each year we pay an escalation series of games and with a Slaanesh army I lost 1 game due to cheating (opponent cheating), and one game to my good friend who I taught to play. I tied 1 time as well, which means I had a 9-1-2 (if you count the cheating loss as legit). I didn't even use heldrake much.

 

If I'm going to play a game, it is a goal of mine to win. It's not really a selfish need, it's just that I see no point in intentionally losing, so I insert some effort and intelligence. The fact that the rules are making this a taboo subject just souldn't even happen. The fact that some armies take the effort and intelligence out of the equation shouldn't happen either.

 

So with friends (who aren't moving a 10 man squad all in base to base contact when I spammed blast masters) I basically have to play an army that is very good and worthy of competition. Now my cultists are henchmen and I use the sorcerors as inquisitors. With the people at the local club I don't even have to run a good list to consistently win, so I just bring utter crap and when I lose.. well the list was crap anyhow. Honestly though, these people don't even know the rules for falling back and they play IG; they play tau and deploy on the line of scrimage in Hammer and Anvil, or they spend a ton of points on orbital bombardment.. because it's a big shot! What are you gonna do?

[Tenebris]

I can say that in my area and in the local gameclubs/teams the people who are infamous for their powerplayer armies are seldom invited to organized events (bar the "official" ones in the GW stores). I never said to hold back, we are Chaos, we DO NOT hold back on anything, but being a player known for fair play has some tangible benefits, like invites on campaigns and even to doubles tournaments... a welcome thing indeed when you find yourself in shortage of people to play with nearby you. 

 

As for the Throne of Skulls, well I say that this edition should be without a single ban or limitation bar the basic point limit setup. GW has to see their rules in action, their problems made manifest and their codexes tested. That is why I think the whole idea of a limit in an official tournament like ToS utterly useless. It should be the test bed, for good or for ill, it should be without any limits, and only at the event's end a picture will be clear for all to see of the current situation of the meta. 

[Wade Garrett]

I just want to add that as I expect others to display a stiff upper lip when I light them up I will likewise put on my stoic face when THOSE [redacted] RIPTIDES blow me off the table on turn 2, and there is a difference in making a tough army and playing to win and being a big ole obnoxious jerk about the while doing so.

[Kol Saresk]

I can say that in my area and in the local gameclubs/teams the people who are infamous for their powerplayer armies are seldom invited to organized events (bar the "official" ones in the GW stores). I never said to hold back, we are Chaos, we DO NOT hold back on anything, but being a player known for fair play has some tangible benefits, like invites on campaigns and even to doubles tournaments... a welcome thing indeed when you find yourself in shortage of people to play with nearby you.

 

As for the Throne of Skulls, well I say that this edition should be without a single ban or limitation bar the basic point limit setup. GW has to see their rules in action, their problems made manifest and their codexes tested. That is why I think the whole idea of a limit in an official tournament like ToS utterly useless. It should be the test bed, for good or for ill, it should be without any limits, and only at the event's end a picture will be clear for all to see of the current situation of the meta.

Well currently, the bans, limitations and restrictions are currently only being discussed for Feast of Blades by the people who organize Feast of Blades. Chances are we'll never see these enter anything actually run by GW proper.

[Smurfalypse]

 

I can say that in my area and in the local gameclubs/teams the people who are infamous for their powerplayer armies are seldom invited to organized events (bar the "official" ones in the GW stores). I never said to hold back, we are Chaos, we DO NOT hold back on anything, but being a player known for fair play has some tangible benefits, like invites on campaigns and even to doubles tournaments... a welcome thing indeed when you find yourself in shortage of people to play with nearby you.

 

As for the Throne of Skulls, well I say that this edition should be without a single ban or limitation bar the basic point limit setup. GW has to see their rules in action, their problems made manifest and their codexes tested. That is why I think the whole idea of a limit in an official tournament like ToS utterly useless. It should be the test bed, for good or for ill, it should be without any limits, and only at the event's end a picture will be clear for all to see of the current situation of the meta.

Well currently, the bans, limitations and restrictions are currently only being discussed for Feast of Blades by the people who organize Feast of Blades. Chances are we'll never see these enter anything actually run by GW proper.

 

As far as I know GW does not run tournaments anymore, though I could be wrong.

[Kol Saresk]

I think the closest they get is Throne of Skulls.

[CovertToaster]

I don't see the need for bans at all. I don't particularly want to face D strength weapons that destroy a tank a turn for 5 turns but that is about the only thing I'm worried about. But I'm really keen on buying a fellblade and that has no destroyer weapons so I'm happy if someone wants to run a super heavy in their list.

 

I think there is the ability to adapt to these rules already within the current crop of codexes and maybe someone has a rough time of it but who cares. Games like this always trend so what! Enjoy your time in the sun while it lasts, if people want to complain that they don't see enough sun and want to sulk then then screw them!

 

I play deepstriking deathwing with the standard of fortitude, cheesy I know, but there are plenty of ways around it for a good player. I play this list because I love terminators and dreadnoughts, I always have, but I'm happy to deepstrike in the face of riptides and I only mildly care if they have two or more crammed into their list all with interceptor and ion accelerators. You see tau BS is 3 so if the template scatters about 3" then it would have drifted off of a small squad, packed together as they are, so without further cheese upping their BS or reducing scatter to D6 they might not hit three small squads or they might only partially hit. 

 

A good player would hit the command squad to kill the standard bearer and take down the FNP bubble but Belial allows for precision deepstrike of the unit so I deep strike them 1" from his forces. That way he can't place the template without placing it on top of his units and therefore cannot take the shot, what's he going to do after that? Charge?

 

This is like void shields. Yes they are a pain in the backside to take down but something like riflemen dreads should be able to take out multiple layers each, spamming min units with missile launchers or lascannons, or anything that can pour out a bucket load of medium strength shots. Then when they are down intelligent target selection (i.e. the buildings that he's relying on to power them) will cause the whole lot to fall apart. I'm happy if you want to spend points on buildings but I'll spend mine on guns! While defences have their place the object of the game is to kill things and overdoing the defences will still degrade the performance of your army.

 

Now back to the fellblade. It meets these restrictions for a super heavy vehicle but with quad lascannon sponsons and a twin linked main gun it can put out 5 S9+ shots a turn theoretically killing a 9 HP revenant titan in two turns of shooting and it has 12HP to take the punishment back! But will this go the way of the tri-las pred which fires "too slow" to take out multiple lighter tanks, same with D strength weapons really. 

 

So don't worry kick back, relax, and enjoy the sun after all you have your cheese and I have mine!

[Brother Ambroz]

I'm sorry Convertedtoaster but what does that have to do with the conversation? You play DA which is great for you, really you're lucky you didn't wind up with the first dex of this edition, but for us we always scatter on a deepstrike and we have no rifleman dreads. We've got forgefiends, sure but they're far more expensive and use up one of our valuable HS slots. Aside from the infinitely cursed heldrake, we've got next to nothing.

 

Personally I really like the 25% suggestion I think Grey Mage was talking about. It'd even things out quite a bit more than they are now.

[Sception]

Now now, Dark Angels aren't in all that much better a position than we are, at least when it comes to winning. I mean, yeah, I'm envious of their more coherent codex, their multiple builds deliberately designed to function rather than our mishmash of disconnected units and rules with little to no synergy - but things are hardly rosey for Dark Angels these days, if the tournament standings are anything to go on, and once again they got a new, somewhat conservative book shortly before generic space marines roll out with something much more exciting.

 

I don't think directing our bitterness as the players of other factions, the dark angels faction in particular, is at all fair.

[Tzen]

I don't play in tournaments at all, I would quite like to go to one before I shrug off this mortal coil, but I've never played in one. 

 

I play in a gaming group very similar to what A-D-B suggests he plays in. It's an excuse to get together with friends in the spirit of playing a good game and having a bit of fun. And to top the evening off with a beer or five.

 

We would never dream of doing anything truly absurd in order to win any game we play. We all have that inner feeling that if our opponent isn't having at least a little fun the game is just not worth playing.

 

However this is where I just have to be a little surprised at what A-D-B has said. Have you actually played against many different armies A-D-B? Don't you get the feeling that our codex is not only uninspired, but a rushed affair that was churned out to meet a deadline? It was clearly developed in the shadow of the legal battle they had with chapter house studios, so any options for models not yet existing have been left out completely. 

 

I also take units such as possessed. Winning the game isn't something I lose any sleep over. However for the money I pump into my hobby, and the fact that they have embraced digital means that they have no excuse any more as a company not to employ just one person whose sole job is to ensure the game is balanced. I have a huge interest in the hobby being balanced and fair. Because the longer the imbalance continues the more and more it will put off new younger gamers. As adults we don't all play to win, but I can promise you my nephews really do play to win. They get annoyed when they don't win. And most kids in stores are the same. And they aren't stupid. They can see the gross imbalance in the system, and it is only putting them off the hobby, not keeping them hooked. 

 

Lets not start trying to take some sort of ideological high ground. Defending GW however impartial we would like because the way they deal with rules supports the particular way in which you or I play the game. That's intellectual suicide - it is a surrender of the mind. Paying as much as we do for this hobby demands a certain level of quality that just isn't there any more. And I enjoy the hobby enough to want to keep enjoying it. 

 

Lets not start trying to think we are somehow the problem. We aren't. GW is. They will NEVER write a set of rules perfectly balanced. Never. It wont happen. However I expect a lot more than the current attitude towards rules than we have now. 

 

Just because the current rules are not an issue for you, or your gaming group, doesn't mean it isn't an issue. For many gaming groups they are an issue,and it isn't good for the hobby if this amount of vitriol is abound on the internet and in gaming scenes. 

 

The people in a corrupt institution who live a happy life obviously don't see the problems with the institution if it doesn't effect them personally. But don't act like there aren't issues. Don't bury your head in the sand.

[the jeske]

If it only wasn't for the helldrake DA may have realy been popular before the whole tau/eldar/marine craze .Still like the powefield LR generator Dakka banner build , can't even say whey <_<

[A D-B]

Lets not start trying to take some sort of ideological high ground.

 

Here's where you lose my vote. The ideological high ground has been assumed in the countless posts implying that everything is awful and that any dissenting opinion is missing some key ultimate truth or grossly biased. That high ground has been assumed en masse already. Why isn't that the side you're accusing of high-grounding? Y'know, the one that actually does it endlessly? You're taking a rare dissenting opinion and misinterpreting it as coming from the ivory tower.

 

You even start stuff like this:

 

 

 

Don't you get the feeling that our codex is not only uninspired, but a rushed affair that was churned out to meet a deadline?

 

 

Tell you what - what if I say no? And what if I say it wasn't rushed, and I know that as a fact? At no point am I diving in to champion it, and I've barely mentioned it at all. Yet, as I warned against several times in this very thread, you're taking any neutral opinion as egregiously positive and implying a bunch of silly nonsense to prove a point against stuff I'm not even saying. My public opinion on the Codex is basically silence. My opinion on almost everything like that is basically silence, and I'm careful with it, too. Don't invent a position for me so you can rail against it.

 

 

 

It was clearly developed in the shadow of the legal battle they had with chapter house studios, so any options for models not yet existing have been left out completely.

 

You... you do realise that's a huge leap of assumption, right? I mean, just so we're clear. How could you possibly make that assumption as if it's cold fact and imply it has anything to do with anything? What has it got to do with anything I've said in this thread? Especially seeing as I've not shared my thoughts on the Chaos codex, and you're acting entirely on assumptions about me specifically defending it.

 

 

 

The people in a corrupt institution who live a happy life obviously don't see the problems with the institution if it doesn't effect them personally. But don't act like there aren't issues. Don't bury your head in the sand.

 

Luckily, I dealt with that exact nonsense when I clearly said:

 

 

I don't need to say everything's great or that everything sucks, because the truth is neither.

 

 

 

 

We may want to be careful that we don't reach a point where anything even remotely neutral - not even massively positive, but simply not WOE, OH NOE - becomes considered something that needs to be argued against.

 

 

 

I don't champion GW's rules quality, nor do I attack it. I'm indifferent to it

 

Stop imagining me as something to rail against so you have a side to fight. Look, you get the whole of the forum to whine about your grievances, as you can see just by clicking any single subforum link. Don't pretend a neutral stance is biased and positive just to have something to fight. You've already got the whole battlefield, stop aching for more.

[A D-B]

I'll be briefer, as this is simpler than my last post made it out to be. Here's where you're wrong, and insulting:

 

 

The people in a corrupt institution who live a happy life obviously don't see the problems with the institution if it doesn't effect them personally. But don't act like there aren't issues. Don't bury your head in the sand.

 

The forum is a wash of complaints, doomsaying, and ivory tower insistence that everything's bad. Whether some is right and some is wrong; whether I agree with it or whether I don't, none of that matters - a great deal of it is ignorant assumption. I've lost count of how many threads and posts there are lately lamenting the death of 40K and forgetting that - to the overwhelming majority of the hobby - what happens in tournaments and the assumed imbalances of various rules aren't actually gospel law - they're just opinions online and an absolutely insignificant percentage of the hobby itself. That's burying your head in the sand. That's not having any perspective. That's assuming a biased perspective is holy writ and unquestionable reality.

 

You don't get to be part of that and insist a rare neutral voice is the one burying his head in the sand. That's my point. Burying your head in the sand is taking one side in a fight that doesn't exist, insisting the End Times are here for everyone.

[Tzen]

Aaron, I am a big fan of yours I am hioping this wont be reduced to ad hominem attacks.

 

my stance is an attempt to be as neutral as yours, I just have to disagree with you on it.

 

I'll try and take your points as you did mine.

Here's where you lose my vote. The ideological high ground has been assumed in the countless posts implying that everything is awful and that any dissenting opinion is missing some key ultimate truth or grossly biased. That high ground has been assumed en masse already. Why isn't that the side you're accusing of high-grounding? Y'know, the one that actually does itendlessly? You're taking a rare dissenting opinion and misinterpreting it as coming from the ivory tower.

Well I feel you aren't allowing for a nuanced argument. Again I feel I play in a very similar environment to you. I don't argue just for the Chaos Codex. I am at the point of view that recently game balance has got out of hand. And I think the evidence for this is in the fact that specific rules are now being changed for tournaments. Not just restricting certain units to 0-1, but things are becoming very specific.

 

You have failed to take into account that I said:

I play in a gaming group very similar to what A-D-B suggests he plays in. It's an excuse to get together with friends in the spirit of playing a good game and having a bit of fun. And to top the evening off with a beer or five.

I also take units such as possessed. Winning the game isn't something I lose any sleep over. However for the money I pump into my hobby, and the fact that they have embraced digital means that they have no excuse any more as a company not to employ just one person whose sole job is to ensure the game is balanced.

And other examples aside. Don't make assumptions where there are none. I haven't made accusations that both sides or High grounding or not. I actually think both sides do, and have tried to engage with that. I feel my admittance of a shared gaming group, but also a realisation that things are less than perfect shows a pretty neutral area. I am very glad GW have taken to digital, I just wish they would take that step further and start balancing their own product.

 

Next:

Tell you what - what if I say no? And what if I say it wasn't rushed, and I know that as a fact? At no point am I diving in to champion it, and I've barely mentioned it at all. Yet, as I warned against several times in this very thread, you're taking any neutral opinion as egregiously positive and implying a bunch of silly nonsense to prove a point against stuff I'm not even saying.

You mention fact here. And you accuse me of bandying around the concept of facts, but I will address that later on. I asked you a series of questions. You didn't actually give an honest answer, you said "what if I say no?". Now, I didn't make any personal attacks against what you said. I'm just asking for an honest opinion. Not a supposition. I really would like to hear your opinion. If you genuinely feel the balance is fine, then the rules really do work for you. And I don't know how you can take the "neutral stance" you accuse me of and argue for the opposite side. You say you aren't championing it, but you are in fact on this forum, in this thread, discussing it with me. I don't know what the criteria is for championing something you feel passionate about. But my guess is that these would be in the description. I am allowed to make my comments in the same tone you made yours. From my point of view, and I try to remain as subjective as I can (otherwise what's the point?).

You... you do realise that's a huge leap of assumption, right? I mean, just so we're clear. How could you possibly make that assumption as if it's cold fact and imply it has anything to do with anything? What has it got to do with anything I've said in this thread? Especially seeing as I've not shared my thoughts on the Chaos codex, and you're acting entirely on assumptions about me specifically defending it.

Well I am going to touch on your abuse of facts claim a little here. You know for a "fact" the codex wasn't rushed? I don't know what authority you can claim your experience of this fact that differs from mine? I will honestly say that the legal battle between Chapter house and GW was ongoing whilst this product was being written. This is a fact. I hope we can agree there. So the only assumption there is that we got no new rules unless they had models to go with the rules. Which, in light of the evidence, with or without the chapter house lawsuit. Is also true.

 

Next I want to address your own claim to knowing the rules where written with due diligence and with plenty of time. I don't share your gaming group, and I would be amiss to try and doubt the integrity of your claim. I assume what you say is true, and that you know the author and he felt he spend a suitable amount of time on the codex. This leaves two things remaining.

 

1) You don't know the author, you just know the conditions most codex books are written under.

2) Even if you do know the author, and he felt the codex was fine, it doesn't take anything away from anyone's complaints about it. It appears rushed, it uses a lot of the same rules the previous one did, it uses very old artwork and a lot of the stuff seems mind boggling.

 

For the second point I am happy to concede that this appears to be the case for a lot of recent publications. It is very subjective obviously, one man's poorly written is another man's wondrous creation.

 

 

 

So in summary, my point still stands. You can tell everyone that they are the problem if you like. You can assume that their band of gamers are at fault. But what if they like that way of gaming?

 

I can't stress this enough, I really really do have a very similar gamign experience as you Aaron. My mind boggles at some of the crazy :cuss that gets said on line, but I can't bring myself to disagree with criticisms not just of the Chaos codex, but also of the design philosophy in general. Sure let everyone use their models as much as they can, but that doesn't really defend bad design.

[Wade Garrett]

Wait....is someone saying that perhaps 40k ISN'T going the way of the Bonanza franchise and the various bouts of internet seppuku about everything being ruined forever are being somewhat overdramatic?

 

MADNESS!

BLASPHEMY!

[Tzen]

I'll be briefer, as this is simpler than my last post made it out to be. Here's where you're wrong, and insulting:

 

 

The people in a corrupt institution who live a happy life obviously don't see the problems with the institution if it doesn't effect them personally. But don't act like there aren't issues. Don't bury your head in the sand.

 

The forum is a wash of complaints, doomsaying, and ivory tower insistence that everything's bad. Whether some is right and some is wrong; whether I agree with it or whether I don't, none of that matters - a great deal of it is ignorant assumption. I've lost count of how many threads and posts there are lately lamenting the death of 40K and forgetting that - to the overwhelming majority of the hobby - what happens in tournaments and the assumed imbalances of various rules aren't actually gospel law - they're just opinions online and an absolutely insignificant percentage of the hobby itself. That's burying your head in the sand. That's not having any perspective. That's assuming a biased perspective is holy writ and unquestionable reality.

 

You don't get to be part of that and insist a rare neutral voice is the one burying his head in the sand. That's my point. Burying your head in the sand is taking one side in a fight that doesn't exist, insisting the End Times are here for everyone.

 

Again if you are trying to claim you know the circumstances GW products are created, you can't really claim a neutral voice. I am not saying I can either. We can both try and speak to neutrality and do our best, but you can't claim it outright.

[A D-B]

Aaron, I am a big fan of yours I am hioping this wont be reduced to ad hominem attacks.

 

I'm a big fan of yours, too. You know that. And I'd have obliterated my first response as unnecessary but I had a feeling you were already replying. 

 

I get what you're saying. And a lot of what's "just your opinion, man" is flat-out my opinion too, even if I don't go into specifics and whatever else. As an example, I have a lot of fun with the Chaos Codex, but I have more fun with the new Marine codex for a squillion reasons, and I feel I can do a lot more with it. But to be specific, in terms of the overall pitfighting going on, it's not that I'm blind to people's issues or that I even disagree with some of them. It's that the level of hyperbole is so rank right now that I'm sort of embarrassed on behalf of the people posting a lot of it. 

 

I don't think people are the problem. I think some people are bringing their expectations and bias to the situation, then getting mad when reality doesn't follow suit. They're the ones forgetting that most folks don't have the same issues they have, and that's a dangerous lack of perspective. When you see the minority claiming their ivory tower opinions are The Ones That Matter, as if they're the only ones that see the light, you've not got discussion or progress. You've got bullying and ignorance masquerading as The Chosen Ones.

[Tzen]

I don't feel 40k is going to drop dead. I think, and very much hope, that it will be around for at least as long as I am. 

 

My posts have only give voice to my concerns. No I do not believe 40k or GW in general is doomed to failure. I hope the level of care I have taken to think my posts through reflects this.

 

There's plenty of people on forums everywhere who share my concerns but don't feel they can voice them because of statements like this:

 

 

Wait....is someone saying that perhaps 40k ISN'T going the way of the Bonanza franchise and the various bouts of internet seppuku about everything being ruined forever are being somewhat overdramatic?

MADNESS! 
BLASPHEMY! 

 

I enjoy the hobby too. I am allowed to express my concerns without this sort of thing being trotted out.

[A D-B]

 

I enjoy the hobby too. I am allowed to express my concerns without this sort of thing being trotted out.

 

Here's the problem. The forum is almost nothing but "concerns" lately. One dissenting opinion of "Maybe there's a bigger picture..." is already coming under fire. You see what I mean? It's a case of having all the cake and then acting offended when someone's got some crumbs. The wrong side (in a war that's not even real) is playing the victim card, here. 

[Tzen]

 

Aaron, I am a big fan of yours I am hioping this wont be reduced to ad hominem attacks.

 

I'm a big fan of yours, too. You know that. And I'd have obliterated my first response as unnecessary but I had a feeling you were already replying. 

 

I get what you're saying. And a lot of what's "just your opinion, man" is flat-out my opinion too, even if I don't go into specifics and whatever else. As an example, I have a lot of fun with the Chaos Codex, but I have more fun with the new Marine codex for a squillion reasons, and I feel I can do a lot more with it. But to be specific, in terms of the overall pitfighting going on, it's not that I'm blind to people's issues or that I even disagree with some of them. It's that the level of hyperbole is so rank right now that I'm sort of embarrassed on behalf of the people posting a lot of it. 

 

I don't think people are the problem. I think some people are bringing their expectations and bias to the situation, then getting mad when reality doesn't follow suit. They're the ones forgetting that most folks don't have the same issues they have, and that's a dangerous lack of perspective. When you see the minority claiming their ivory tower opinions are The Ones That Matter, as if they're the only ones that see the light, you've not got discussion or progress. You've got bullying and ignorance masquerading as The Chosen Ones.

 

I agree. If anything I feel we are discussing the same issue but from different sides of the same coin.

 

I am reduced to a little bit of face-palming whenever I see forum posts that offer nothing but anger and doomsday predictions. We're all on a forum for a hobby we love. I don't understand the whole idea of wishing it would burn down in a blaze of hysteria.

 

The issue as I see it is that GW has let game balance move too far away from their control. This is obviously because they are a business and have to act like one. I just really believe that if they had one person for each game system in control of balancing the systems, who interacted even just a little with the community, the whole hobby would be much MUCH healthier.  It would be a stressful, thankless role and those individuals would come under a lot of attacks. But the current system they are using is "kind of" ruining it for a lot of gaming groups.

 

If I am honest I know that the rules aren't written to annoy the community. But they are written by humans, and humans make mistakes. If we could just have a living rules set then I think it would really help to smooth over a lot of people grievances.

[Tzen]

 

 

I enjoy the hobby too. I am allowed to express my concerns without this sort of thing being trotted out.

 

Here's the problem. The forum is almost nothing but "concerns" lately. One dissenting opinion of "Maybe there's a bigger picture..." is already coming under fire. You see what I mean? It's a case of having all the cake and then acting offended when someone's got some crumbs. The wrong side (in a war that's not even real) is playing the victim card, here. 

 

I agree, but his statement added nothing to our discussion. I am not convinced he read what either of us have written. I don't think anything we have discussed has been less than gentlemanly. Do you believe what I typed lives up to the veiled accusation his post accuses me of? 

 

It's a little like me posting:

 

 

"OH LOOK HE WORKS FOR BLACK LIBRARY OF COURSE HE IS BIASED LOLOLOL."

 

 

After anything you type.

 

 

 

The truth is Aaron, you are doing the job of the absent GW public relations officer. If you tell people it's "not all that bad" then a lot of people will want to believe you. I know this isn't what you want to be, or tried to be, but that is the case. For me I just know no matter how charming you are, this isn't the case. The saying "there's no smoke without fire" is a fatuous one but in some cases its true. The current level of game balance is not great. The hysterical remarks are a product of this whether we like it or not.

[Excessus]

I think that our codex is mostly fine. Some minor issues with legion players can be solved with supplements and dataslates at a later time, but for me, personally, I think the problems with the codex stems down to two things. Lack of transport options (dreadclaw) and the champion of chaos rule (including the boon table).

 

I don't think it looks rushed at all. They spent a long time doing it and they had some good thoughts in there. Legion rules (as done in the SM codex) aren't really feasible in our codex due to the nature of our warbands and codex, and supplements will come along down the line. We have never had the dreadclaw in our codex before, and though it would have been a great option to have, they prioritised other things they thought was more important. The champion of chaos rule and boon table is a nice thought, and I applaud the fact that they got it into the codex, but the implementation was flawed...very flawed...

 

I'm not stopping with my chaos warband anytime soon, and sooner or later the supplements (and hopefully dataslates) will come aout and envigorate the army for all those that need it. Codex: CSM = 40k hardmode...if it was a computergame, I would have been all over that, hehe...