[Concept] A possible DIY idea -- silly or not?

[Wayniac]

As I look at getting back into 40k I am considering creating my own Marine chapter; in the past I'd just pick an existing one and use that as-is, but I think I could make something creative that's my own.  I had an idea come to me, but I'm not sure if it would end up being a silly/joke army given its nature:

 

In recent years I started playing World of Warcraft, and it's the primary thing I enjoy doing as a leisure activity.  WoW has a group of villains called the Scarlet Crusade, that are religious zealots taken to the extreme who basically do witch hunts and have no issue slaughtering innocents to out evil.  This sounds very much like the Space Marines and Imperium in concept; in the game the organization is devoted to destroying the undead, which for this concept quite easily becomes destroying heretics/demons.  In the game in a twist of irony it's even revealed that the organization is led by a demon who took human form (and turns most of them into undead themselves).  Thus I had the idea for the Scarlet Crusade Chapter, with red (crimson/scarlet) armor and white/black as secondary colors; I would likely follow the Codex Astartes for markings if doing a standard army.  Their symbol is an open flame.  In theory I could use rules like Blood Angels or Black Templars, or just stick with regular Codex marines.  I could even go with Salamanders for the extra fluff related to fire/flame weapons, which is particular suiting.  Also, having a zealot religious organization opens up the possibility of Inquisition allies as a good side project down the road.  Given their penchant for zealotry I'd also have an excuse to hand-wave fighting other Marine armies if necessary, as I imagine they would be pretty stubborn and hot-headed if they thought there was corruption/heresy.

 

I do have some potential issues with this idea:  First, it seems too much like a Loyalist version of the Word Bearers with their religious devotion, although not to any real extreme and many Marine chapters are devoted so I think that as long as I don't make it seem like loyalist Word Bearers, I should be safe there.  The second, and bigger issue is that I am afraid the idea will become a caricature, as the whole concept and theme of the army is lifted almost entirely from the WoW group with notable exceptions to make it fit into 40k (demons/heretics instead of undead, no females, etc.).  I'm not against having a theme with inspiration from elsewhere (look at all the Greek/Roman themed Marine armies) but I'm afraid this will be too much and it won't be taken seriously but as a joke army; to try and avoid this I thought of deliberately avoid naming squads/characters after the named NPCs from WoW, but this begs the question of why have this kind of theme without taking it to that extreme (it would be like having an army that's clearly based on the Roman Legions, and giving them Russian-sounding names).

 

What do you think, my battle-brothers?  Is a concept like this too close to being a one-off joke army and I should think of something more unique?  I have another concept floating around that isn't really fleshed out, just a name (tentatively "The Emperor's Fist"), possible color scheme (possibly bone/tan armor with CA standard trim) and motto ("Strength through purity, purity through faith" shamelessly lifted from V for Vendetta's Norsefire organization in the graphic novel) that I could flesh out to have something a bit more unique instead of just taking a group in a popular game and translating it to 40k.

[Messor]

How familiar is your gaming group with WoW and this organization? Without a WoW background, if you had just proposed this Chapter on it's own, I would have assumed it was your own idea. I don't think it would be construed as a joke army. Then again, I have two Chapters based on Mass Effect factions. I also wouldn't worry about the Word Bearers. The galaxy is huge, and there's really no definitive count on how many Astartes Chapters there now are, so there's bound to be one or two with a religious bent. We already have the Black Templars officially. Fine tune them with some personal flair, and they'll stand on their own feet just fine.

[Wayniac]

How familiar is your gaming group with WoW and this organization? Without a WoW background, if you had just proposed this Chapter on it's own, I would have assumed it was your own idea. I don't think it would be construed as a joke army. Then again, I have two Chapters based on Mass Effect factions. I also wouldn't worry about the Word Bearers. The galaxy is huge, and there's really no definitive count on how many Astartes Chapters there now are, so there's bound to be one or two with a religious bent. We already have the Black Templars officially. Fine tune them with some personal flair, and they'll stand on their own feet just fine.

 

I'm not sure how familiar people are as I'm just basically coming up with ideas at the moment; I haven't committed to anything yet.  Even if they're familiar with it they might get a kick out of it, I just want to avoid the things like having a Star Wars Stormtrooper Marine army with Darth Vader as your Captain, where not only doesn't it fit but the whole thing is just an inside joke.

[Messor]

Here's the thing. I don't think a Star Wars army like that would be an inside joke, because everyone would get it. It would be a very overt joke (though still epic to see on the table, IMO). The concept you're proposing is more of an inside joke, because of how easily this Chapter works without the WoW context. You could play this army and be the only one who knows that part, unless you wanted to share it.

[Omega Striker]

How silly this idea ends up being is based on how silly you make it. You don't need to steal names to make something derivative. You could have a storm trooper army with a counts-as Darth Vader Epistolary HQ, and if you take it seriously, write up some decent history and make a believable sounding IA, then it's not a joke. I played WoW a lot back in the day, but I don't see the "joke nature" of your proposal. WoW's creators have worked hard to make the game awesome and fun, and if you want to borrow their ideas, that's fine. You will get a lot of help from people here to keep silliness out of your chapter as well.

 

Don't be embarrassed just because your idea isn't original. My chapter's appearance is heavily derived from Tron: Legacy, but that doesn't mean it automatically sucks.

[Darrell]

What's that saying about "good artists copy, but great artists steal"?

 

There's nothing wrong with being inspired by someone else's work. It is a perfectly natural thing to look at art (of any variety) and say, "That's pretty good... but I want to do it my way". Directors, writers, painters, video game designers, inventors, scientists, and basically anyone who thinks creatively, all do this. You are not committing a crime in doing what humans have done for an exceptionally long time.

 

However, copying is a bland process. It is, to my mind, lazy. You also face a dilemma in trying to take one organization (Scarlet Crusade) and shove it into a different setting. You can certainly ram a square peg through a round hole, but the results will not be pretty. I'm assuming you want to make the army idea as cool as it can be, hence your presence in the Liber. So, let's do that.

 

The first step I recommend in this situation is to break the Scarlet Crusade down. Don't think of it as "The Scarlet Crusade" and think of it in terms of concepts. What do you like about the Scarlet Crusade? Make a simple list. I find it helps to write these things down, as the written word holds a certain substance. Write, say, ten things. Then cut it down to five. Then prioritize them. You want a small, well-defined core to serve as your foundation. Too many ideas breeds confusion, while too few prevents depth.

 

For instance, you might write:

 

1. Religious zealotry

2. Merciless

3. Specializes in fighting an unrelenting foe

4. Unapologetic bigots

5. Betrayed from within

 

These are all things which describe the Scarlet Crusade (There are many more, but these come to mind), but now you're freeing yourself from being chained to what the Scarlet Crusade is in WoW. It allows you to tailor it to fit 40K, and apply your own creative touch.

 

I also would recommend not naming your Chapter "Scarlet Crusade". The name isn't necessarily important at this stage but, again, it will help to free yourself from the inspiration. Perhaps something like "Order of the Crimson Flame", "Knights of Holy Fire", "Puritants" or what-have-you. Again, the name doesn't need to be a focus at this stage. Lay the foundation before you think about your lawn decoration, et cetera.

 

One thing that always struck me about the Scarlet Crusade is, while they are criticized because of their harsh methods, they are an answer to a harsh situation. Stormwind can whine about how the Crusaders do their work, but Stormwind is not under constant assault by the ravenous undead. Their lands are not poisoned with horrific disease. Their dead do not stumble to their feet and pound on the door of their family home. The Scarlet Crusade is in the middle of a horrific war against a nightmarish foe, and that situation does not lend itself well to right and wrong. It's about survival and agonizing death. Plus, their methods work. Every farm that produces edible food in the Plaguelands? Owned and protected by the Scarlet Crusade. Who is trying to retake their homeland and purify the landscape? The Scarlet Crusade. The Argent Dawn showed up because they thought the Crusaders were being mean, and they're more worried about punishing the Crusaders than they are with trying to push out the undead. Who has the weird priorities? Not the Scarlet Crusade.

 

If I was brainstorming, I would think about putting the Chapter in some enemy-infested sector of space. Maybe it's packed with one type of enemy (Orks, Chaos, a well-entrenched alien empire) or a multitude of enemies. Somewhere on the fringes of the Imperium, maybe. The Chapter was originally founded to patrol a larger sector, or to do somethibg else. The Infestation was supposed to be a brief scouting mission for a larger force, or maybe the Astartes weren't supposed to be there at all. Transported through the Warp, Navigator had a headache and got lost that day. Either way, the Astartes see the Infestation and they say they're not going anywhere. This is where they are needed. This is what they are going to do. Maybe it's altruism; humans are enslaved and need to be freed. Maybe it's religious fervor. Maybe it's battle lust. Certain people in the Imperium will have a fit, but what are they going to do? Punish Astartes for fighting the enemies of Man?

 

So the Chapter pushes into the Infestation. It's a gruelling process. Even if they use hit-and-run tactics, they're outnumbered millions to one. But if an Astartes backed down every time they were outnumbered, they'd never get anything done. At first, the Infestation has no idea what's going on. Outposts are going dark, ships are found scuttled, patrols are lost. This gives the Astartes time to set up a base, get an idea of their enemy, form a plan. But, they're trying to swim up a waterfall.

 

If altruism brought them in, it doesn't last long. Worlds are conquered, but the Astartes are not benevolent masters. They are ruthless. They spilled blood on every inch of this planet. The people OWE them. Recruits, weapons, ammunition, vehicles, whatever they can supply. The Astartes aren't cruel, they just want their due. They did these humans a favor by bringing them into the Imperium's light, and they immediately demand payment.

 

Perhaps they were always faithful. More likely, they found faith in an unrelenting grind of warfare. No atheists in foxholes, right? Faith was all they had, and they clung to it for dear life. They took it into their hearts and war turned it into something else. Like an insane smile that just doesn't look right. Maybe they're the religious answer to other Astartes extremists. Flesh Tearers butcher civilians because they're savages. Marines Malevolent sacrifice civilians because they're weak. These Astartes do it because they take that whole "The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Imperium" thing really seriously.

 

The Chapter has been getting help from the Imperium, but not much. Maybe warp storms make travel difficult, maybe forces were more needed elsewhere, maybe the higher-ups are getting payback for the Chapter's refusal to follow orders. Eventually, backup arrives. Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, maybe some Inquisition, maybe some other Chapters. They show up and, wow, this sector looks like hell. Some don't take well to what the Crusaders have done with the place. "To say these Astartes have exceeded all concepts of brutality in the persecution of their campaign is to say Catachan is a slightly unpleasant place to live." Mountains of corpses, stacked and burned. Uncovered graves that are ravenous maws in the earth (The Dead Canyons). Complaints are filed, voices are raised. But, who are they to question the Crusaders' methods? They were too busy sitting on their thumbs while the work was being done. They didn't have to claw, bite and bleed for every inch of soil.

 

Maybe shots are fired. Maybe they aren't. Regardless, the Crusaders are investigated. But, they come out relatively clean. Crazy religious zealots, but not heretics. The campaign doesn't go well because of a lack of trust and cohesion amongst Imperial forces. Most leave. Some are rotated in every once in a while but, by and large, the Crusaders are alone. And that's fine. No one else understands.

 

How could they? They lack the faith to do what must be done. To stand at the gates of hell and march in, every single day, just to bring the Emperor's light just a little deeper than the day before.

 

Just some things to get you thinking. Focus on the concepts you like, grimdark-ify them and I believe your Chapter will be taken as seriously as you want. Feel free to think out loud and use the Liber as a sounding board. It's what they're here for.

[LongGone]

Dude, just have Darrell write the IA!!! He just broke that idea down shotgun-style and gave you everything you need to build it into 'IA:Chapter of Awesomesauce.' *Scribbling down his post to use for my own IA* Seriously though, unless you steal everything from WoW, and smack your opponent in the face with a WoW sword, there's not a whole lot of harm in borrowing ideas from other sources.

[Lord-Captain Cepinari]

Yep.  That's it.  Right there.  You aint gonna find a better take on the Scarlet Crusade in 40k than that.  Nope.  No way.  Not gonna happen. Uh-uh.  That's the best possible outcome of this brainstorm.  Hell, his signature works for it.  That's how spot on he is.  He nailed it utterly and completely.  It's actually kinda scary.

[Omega Striker]

Yup, this idea thread just awesome-ploded..  Let's move on to the IA, and translate that stuff into some armor painter as well.  

[Tonal]

I'd given up both WoW and 40k in favour of LOTRO and 30k...

 

Kinda want too roll a Scarlet Crusader and make an army of these guys in 40k now..

[Lord-Captain Cepinari]

I think we might have scared Wayniac off.