Raptors

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I was wondering if anyone had use with raptors? I was thinking of using them to add some speed to my thousand sons, possibly giving them a lvl 2 or 3 sorcerer with jump pack and force sword and the champ a power maul possibly, the idea being they are either warriors hired by the sorcerers, or new recruits to the sons. What is the best way to run raptors?

[the jeske]

5 man anti tank with 2 melta probably.  to be honest I can't think about many setting where bikes don't out perform them . They could be better in a setting where city fight boards are very common and objectives/relics are put on tier 2 or 3 of buildings.

[Sception]

The main problem with raptors is not that they're terrible, but rather that bikes to mostly the same things, but much better for basically a negligible investment of extra points. And if what you're using them for is msu tank hunting with meltaguns, the bikes are actually cheaper due to their smaller minimum unit size.

 

Again, though, raptors aren't exactly bad, and their models are both much better than bikes and much cheaper, so people certainly do run them.

 

Typical builds are either msu special weapon builds (five guys with two meltaguns, two flamers, or two plasmaguns depending on what you want to hunt - don't mix guns) or larger squads (8 to 10 or more) for close combat or character escorting (these squads should still probably carry meltaguns, though). Both the smaller and the larger squads should try and use line of sight blocking terrain to cover their advance until they can get into striking distance, as raptors are not cheap, clocking in at around 20 points a model once you count any special weapons or upgrades the squad has, but still dying like 13 point chaos marines (a common problem among chaos 'elite' power armored units).

 

 

Consider the typical terrain you play with carefully when thinking about whether and how to run raptors. The larger melee builds are basically useless on tables that don't have a lot of line of sight blocking terrain to cover their advance (these days cover simply isn't good enough). The msu hunter squads can still function on sparser boards, but they're stuck trying to deep strike into firing range to have any hope of doing anything, and as we lack any form of scatter mitigation that is generally a sort of suicide run / desperation attack sort of deal. MSU raptors aren't so expensive as to make doing so a terrible idea, but they aren't so cheap as to make it a great idea, either. Again, this is only for MSU dual special builds, larger squads meant for assaulting or delivering a melee hero do assault should not deep strike.

 

And that's basically all there is to know about raptors.

 

 

In case you're interested, warp talons tend to be an inferior choice to regular raptors. For one, they're even more expensive, while still dying like chaos marines to small arms fire. For another, they lack grenades or special weapons or shooting weapons of any kind, meaning they have to get to assault to matter. Finally, they're way too narrow. Yeah, they'll do a number on any power armored unit that manage to charge, but they're basically worthless against anything with a 2+ save, are either overkill or worse will get bogged down and overwhelmed by anything with worse than a 5+ save or worse, and are basically useless against vehicles, and pretty darn bad against most monstrous creatures. Even against their preferred targets, their lack of grenades can cause serious problems if you're ever forced to charge into cover.

 

If you play against a lot of marines who field a lot of power armored units and not a lot of vehicles , AND if you play with A LOT of line of sight blocking terrain, but not a lot of defensible area terrain, then they can be pretty boss. but that's a lot of ifs, there, so a lot of the time they're going to let you down.

[A D-B]

I was wondering if anyone had use with raptors? I was thinking of using them to add some speed to my thousand sons, possibly giving them a lvl 2 or 3 sorcerer with jump pack and force sword and the champ a power maul possibly, the idea being they are either warriors hired by the sorcerers, or new recruits to the sons. What is the best way to run raptors?

 

My Khorne Lord has a 6- to 8-man Raptor squad with two meltaguns that I use to eviscerate Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads, and their accompanying Rhinos/Razorbacks.

[Sception]

My Khorne Lord has a 6- to 8-man Raptor squad with two meltaguns that I use to eviscerate Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads, and their accompanying Rhinos/Razorbacks.

That's a pretty ideal example of the sort of mid or larger size melee/character escort sort of build I mentioned above. With a pair of meltaguns they can crack transports, and raptors have a fair number of attacks to bring down on whatever unit spills out. On their own they can pry tactical squads out of their boxes and fairly reliably rip them apart over a round or two of close combat if nothing comes in to help them. With a character they can threaten much meatier targets.

 

Obviously the ideal character to deliver is a khorne lord with the blinding axe. Let the champion eat the obligatory challenge, and an axe lord can take apart almost any unit - striking at Init 5, S6, Ap2, with enough attacks to scare near about any unit.

 

If you're going that way, you might even consider investing in combi meltas on the champion and maybe even the lord (though it does cost you a melee attack there), to more reliably pop transports and even be a legitimate threat against heavy transports like land raiders. seven or more raptors with two meltas and a combi melta champ plus a khornate jump lord with the axe, sigil, and a combi melta will pose a serious threat even to terminator units in crusaders - though storm shields will make it far from a sure thing.

 

 

If you can get there, of course.

 

I want to stress, this sort of unit is extremely fragile for the points, especially with a character in there, so you'll need a fair bit of line of sight blocking terrain to cover your advance. If your local store doesn't stock much then buy, build, and donate a few cityfight buildings, being sure to use the solid panels for the bottom floors so the buildings will actually block line of sight. You'll probably want to do that anyway. 40k in general, and playing 40k with chaos marines in particular, is much more enjoyable / less frustrating when there's a good bit of line of sight blocking terrain on the table. A lot of our units (raptors, bikes, and maulerfiends especially; but also any marinish unit in a rhino) are much more functional if you actually stand a shot of getting into shortish range with them before your shootier opponents can start blowing them apart.

 

 

And, again, bikes do this same thing better, between their turbo boost, their always having hammer of wrath (jump packs generally won't due to having to use their packs in the movement phase), their considerably improved durability thanks to T5, and only costing three points more a model, or only 2 points more if you get the unit the vets upgrade.

 

 

But that doesn't mean raptors are bad, and the actual models are both reasonably priced (I mean, by GW standards) and look fantastic (imo - my own CSM preferences are for more jaggedy, baroque, mutated designs, so the raptors are right up my alley), so I certainly do recommend giving them a shot.

[A D-B]

 

My Khorne Lord has a 6- to 8-man Raptor squad with two meltaguns that I use to eviscerate Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads, and their accompanying Rhinos/Razorbacks.

That's a pretty ideal example of the sort of mid or larger size melee/character escort sort of build I mentioned above. With a pair of meltaguns they can crack transports, and raptors have a fair number of attacks to bring down on whatever unit spills out. On their own they can pry tactical squads out of their boxes and fairly reliably rip them apart over a round or two of close combat if nothing comes in to help them. With a character they can threaten much meatier targets.

 

Obviously the ideal character to deliver is a khorne lord with the blinding axe. Let the champion eat the obligatory challenge, and an axe lord can take apart almost any unit - striking at Init 5, S6, Ap2, with enough attacks to scare near about any unit.

 

If you're going that way, you might even consider investing in combi meltas on the champion and maybe even the lord (though it does cost you a melee attack there), to more reliably pop transports and even be a legitimate threat against heavy transports like land raiders. seven or more raptors with two meltas and a combi melta champ plus a khornate jump lord with the axe, sigil, and a combi melta will pose a serious threat even to terminator units in crusaders - though storm shields will make it far from a sure thing.

 

 

If you can get there, of course.

 

I want to stress, this sort of unit is extremely fragile for the points, especially with a character in there, so you'll need a fair bit of line of sight blocking terrain to cover your advance. If your local store doesn't stock much then buy, build, and donate a few cityfight buildings, being sure to use the solid panels for the bottom floors so the buildings will actually block line of sight. You'll probably want to do that anyway. 40k in general, and playing 40k with chaos marines in particular, is much more enjoyable / less frustrating when there's a good bit of line of sight blocking terrain on the table. A lot of our units (raptors, bikes, and maulerfiends especially; but also any marinish unit in a rhino) are much more functional if you actually stand a shot of getting into shortish range with them before your shootier opponents can start blowing them apart.

 

 

And, again, bikes do this same thing better, between their turbo boost, their always having hammer of wrath (jump packs generally won't due to having to use their packs in the movement phase), their considerably improved durability thanks to T5, and only costing three points more a model, or only 2 points more if you get the unit the vets upgrade.

 

 

But that doesn't mean raptors are bad, and they're both reasonably priced (I mean, by GW standards) and look fantastic (imo, my own CSM preferences are for more jaggedy, baroque, mutated designs, so the raptors are right up my alley), so I certainly do recommend giving them a shot.

 

I sort of love this thread, and this post especially. 

 

I'd never argue I use my Lord & his retinue well, but they certainly do what I make them do (as mentioned above). I've noticed my Bikes take out Tac Squads better than my Raptors do, but my Raptors work better against Assault Squads and Devastator Squads. Either way, I know I'm not using them effectively, but it's a bit of a rush to mince enemy infantry with a Lord and his chosen sky-buddies.

 

One thing I stopped doing right away was giving the Champion dual lightning claws, tooling him instead for Terminators / anti-tank. Especially when my Lord already has dual lightning claws most of the time. Sometimes the orgy of Marine-killing is impossible to resist, though. 

[Sception]

I wouldn't say you aren't using them effectively. If they work for you, if they actually succeed on the missions you send them on (apart from just the mission of looking cool, which they can do from a display case), then they're being used effectively. Maybe not 'optimally' (particularly if your khorne lord is rocking dual lightning claws and not the blinding axe, or at least a claw and a fist, come on it's only a few points more, makes you much more versatile, and lightning claws look enough like power fists that I don't think anyone could fault you for counting pair claws as fisticlaws anyway, but whatever), and almost certainly not an optimal use of the points involved (again, bikes), but still.

It's certainly the case that 'effective' and 'optimal' are too often conflated in online discussions, and I'm certainly as guilty of that as anyone.

Dual claws in general should be avoided, though. On melee ICs you really want to pay the extra points for a daemon weapon, or for one fist and one claw for some versatility. On champions, well, due to the champions of chaos rule, those guys are mostly going to be sacrificed to enemy characters so your IC can wail on their squads, so spending much extra points at all on them is usually a poor deal. I have a hard time resisting 15 points for a single lightning claw or power weapon on my champions, but having to spend a full 15 more points for that second claw is just way too much.


Marks and vets, didn't mention those. I don't like them on raptors. I don't like vets on any of the units that have to spend more than a point a model on them (I've got a whole schpiel on cost of hatred per attack per point, but I'll spare you). I mean, I run my raptors with vets when I run them at all because I run my list out of the Black Legion book, so I don't have a choice. But it's really not a good call, and aggravates the comparison with bikes issue, since the latter only pay one point per model for the upgrade.

As for marks - In general, raptors are pricey enough and fragile enough that extra points on marks is a bad idea. MoN theoretically isn't terrible, but it exaggerates the poor comparison to bikes even more so then vets. MoT is terrible on anything that doesn't already have an inv save - take it if you have to for theme, but otherwise no. The offensive marks are better. Khorne can be a fair increase to their attack output, and Slaanesh is great against marines provided you catch them in the open. I don't think either are worth the point for point hit you take in durability, but if you think you can get them to combat without getting shot at then they can still be worthwhile.

In general, though, try to save points where you can. If you have to take a mark for thematic reasons, then it isn't going to ruin the unit outright, but there is no point at which a unit is 'so expensive' that spending a few more points 'doesn't matter'. Especially when it comes to relatively fragile units like raptors, the more points you spend on them, the more painful that fragility becomes.

 

I sort of love this thread, and this post especially.

 

Thank you! I know things have been extra contentious lately, and I apologize for the... less than friendly replies I've left in some other threads.

Hopefully the escalation freak out will eventually calm down to the point that a similar thread could be had on the Lord of Skulls. Assuming the reaction to some of the more contentious lords of war doesn't lead to a rejection of escalation altogether.

[chillin]

I've used them two ways: 5 guys pretty much naked except  for two meltas , tank hunters , they have an advantage over bikers bc they can fly over terrain (bikers have advantages over them too) . Also have used them in larger squads (8 or so) still with 2 meltas but also champ gets pwr sword and squad gets MoK. Basically they hid out of sight till point in game when most/all of enemy is tied up in combat , then fly out to finish of combats , especially those on objectives.

[Prot]

beautiful models.

 

I plan on making a squad as a 'vanguard' for my NEW Black Legion army.  Basically in the past I have used bikes for obvious reasons, so I confess that I've even used Warp Talons (man these guys need an FAQ) but not Raptors very often. (Maybe under 10 games?)

 

I still like them. If you go vanilla with the champ they can be a cheap, multi role unit. I'm kinda different in that I see value in flamer type units in an elite army where numbers can be an issue. I still think they are a decent unit.

[Forté]

I would have used them for the Night Lords I've been toying with doing. Then Forge World did the Night Raptor minis so the plastics will be kitbashed for EC minis.

 

Have to admit to lurking on this thread because I've not tried out the two units. Personal preferences do swing me toward Raptors over bikes though.

[chillin]

I've given them flamers too , it just never quite worked out as well as I hoped / thought it would. And I do like flamers in other squads (csm's, hvy flamer on termi's)

[Prot]

I've given them flamers too , it just never quite worked out as well as I hoped / thought it would. And I do like flamers in other squads (csm's, hvy flamer on termi's)

 

I try Plasma double tap and backing up my deep striking Oblits works well with this.

[Chaeron]

Certainly have an affinity for the models, and my few are going in the next Dettol batch. Agree with all that's been said about them above really - yes, Bikes may be cheaper, but there are certainly some slightly different builds that may also be effective. I wouldn't generally bring them out personally, nor would I expect to see them on that note, in an ultra-competitive list. 

[the jeske]

What kind of a builds would those be?

[crucial]

Biggest advantage over bikers is having the choice of running them up the board OR deepstriking them. That 125pts melta raptor squad can be used in a similar way to termicide then (you might want a combo melta on the champ tho).

 

They still have to be removed afterwards because of the meltaguns still having shots (not combi like termies). Note how in a lot of cases this makes them MORE of a threat than the termies after they have deepstiked and melta'd something...

 

My main opponent plays deathwing alpha strike with Belial and you can deepstrike after him or pick off the land raiders which is a nice option that bikes dont have.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Both double flamers or double melta sound tempting as those would both help cover weakness of my Thousand sons more then plasma, and then in bigger games I could take them up to 10 just for the sheer number of attacks. Only problem with melta cide is that it doesn't really work with having a sorcerer with them unless I get lucky on biomancy/telepathy wouldn't work. How do people use the champs?

[the jeske]

combi melta or a challang catcher if an HQ is with theunit.

[Trevak Dal]

I love Raptors, the new Kit kinda makes me want to play Blood Angels so I can have an entire army of the new kit.  

 

Jeske has the sum of it as you can take minimum squad size and still take 2 specials.  I use mine as "door kickers".

 

I have a squad of CSMs/Chosen in a Rhino backed up by a raptor squad.  The Rhino mounted squad pushes up, disembarks, and unloads with bolters and plasma, while the Raptors come screaming overhead and "Kick in the door" engaging and pinning the victim unit in assault if not wiping them entirely, the Chosen/CSM unit joins in the fray after the fact if needed, or get back into the rhino.

 

When you take more than 8, they become a little unwieldy, so keep that in mind.

 

I haven't had much luck on Plasma guns...but 4 plasma pistols (2 on the champ gunslinger'd) can rain the unkindness down.

[Sception]

Do not take plasma pistols.  At least, not on the regular models.  Melta guns aren't just 'better', they're very nearly 'strictly better'.  There are maybe one, maybe two models in the game that are just immune to melta, and you almost never see those models.  Against everything else, melta is the same range, +1 strength, -1 AP, melta rule against vehicles, doesn't get hot, and still lets you charge after firing, with the same number of attacks.  Raptor meltaguns don't even replace bolters, so there isn't even the kinda sorta argument that you might want that long range shot like on CSMs.

 

And meltaguns on raptors, for being strictly superior to their plasma pistols, still cost five points less.

[A D-B]

Do not take plasma pistols.  At least, not on the regular models.  Melta guns aren't just 'better', they're very nearly 'strictly better'.  There are maybe one, maybe two models in the game that are just immune to melta, and you almost never see those models.  Against everything else, melta is the same range, +1 strength, -1 AP, melta rule against vehicles, doesn't get hot, and still lets you charge after firing, with the same number of attacks.  Raptor meltaguns don't even replace bolters, so there isn't even the kinda sorta argument that you might want that long range shot like on CSMs.

 

And meltaguns on raptors, for being strictly superior to their plasma pistols, still cost five points less.

 

Hard to argue with that. Admittedly, I love the look of plasma pistols, but it's not like they crack Terminators any better than meltaguns, either. My main opponent has a Grey Knight Terminaotr army, and dropping my Lord's retinue in front of his Captain to liquefy him with vape guns was perhaps more smirkingly satisfying than it had any right to be.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'll say that taking paired plasma pistols on the champ and pairing that with double meltas isn't a horrible idea; same range, same target profile (save AV14), and the pistols add rate of fire.  The problems I see with that it's expensive points-wise, and your champ now has double the opportunity to burn himself out of the game.  YMMV, I guess.

[Trevak Dal]

I love that Gunslinger rule and try to take advantage of it in some places.  I kind of wish you could load Chosen down with them for extra hilarity, but it specifically says "replaces their bolt pistol" so :(

[daboarder]

always wanted to try a champ with double PP and 2x Plasmaguns in the squad, especially with 6th's casualty rules they make good assassins for squad leaders, heavy weapons and the like with 6 plasma shots at 12

[Warsmith Aznable]

I kind of wish you could load Chosen down with them for extra hilarity, but it specifically says "replaces their bolt pistol" so

Pistol range is 12", plasma gun rapid fire distance is 12", so you get the same amount of shots in the same range, but with plasma guns you can get longer range shots the pistols can't. So there is really no advantage other than looks.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Or possibly giving them to the aspiring champ, which does look cool, but if you give him a power weapon to deal with challenges it does make him expensive, especially for 1w charecter.
What about this?

5 Raptors with 2 melta guns, aspiring champion with power maul 130pts

Sorcerer with an extra level and jump pack 100pts (with either biomancy or Telepathy or a mixture)
Not sure if I should give them melta bombs or not, could give them an extra couple or Raptors.