Raptors

[Warsmith Aznable]

I haven't done it in a long time, but my Raptor squad was built with the idea they would be escort for my winged sorcerer. Since we lost our homing beacons I haven't brought them out many times. I still haven't tried allied daemons to make use of the gimped icon beacons, but I may get around to it before the next codex comes out.

[Trevak Dal]

The wings were a cool trick in the last codex (you essentially had a jump pack but could be in a transport-and not take up any extra space) made for some nice SUPRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISE! Doaks moments.

[crucial]

So you were using ahriman for his infiltration trait in both games? I wonder how raptors hold up with the addition of cypher who gives up to 3 units infiltration...

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Indeed but that's mainly because the black staff allows Ahriman use the multiple witchfire powers he will get thanks to the lore of tzeentch (boon would have been okay if not for the S4 hit..).

[crucial]

Indeed but that's mainly because the black staff allows Ahriman use the multiple witchfire powers he will get thanks to the lore of tzeentch (boon would have been okay if not for the S4 hit..).

Ahriman works ok for you then? Never used him myself but ive not heard many good things if im honest :(

 

Ill have to paint my model up someday..

[Sception]

He's ok, but hella pricey, and while he can do a lot of things with his psychic powers, he can't do all of them at once, so don't try.  You're either trying for support with telepathy, buffs with biomancy, or making him a short range artillery platform by loading up on witchfires from tzeentch/pyromancy/etc.  It is perfectly acceptable, and in many cases preferable, to go full telepathy or biomancy and skip the witchfires altogether, regardless of his staff rule.

 

Apart from that, he's got the infiltrate ability as his default warlord trait.  Basically he's a (much) more expensive huron, with less melee ability (not that huron's exactly the bees' knees there), and more impressive/reliable psychic support.

 

I he good?  Nah.  Not really.  But he isn't lousy.  Try him with a mid size squad of tzeentch combi-plas terminators and a couple squads of thousand sons in rhinos.  Infiltrate the termies, with ahriman if possible, plus one of the sons squads if you roll a 3.  Makes for a semi-decent, though far from 'optimal', little anti-meq strike force, and if ahriman manages to get invisibility with one of his three telepathy powers, that infiltrating terminator squad could be a real pain in the enemy's side.

 

Well, unless they're playing an army that ignores cover.  Like Tau.  or Eldar via divination.  Or really any imperial army what-so-ever via divination inquisitors.  The latter of which can also shut down Ahriman's infiltration.  And that's a heck of a lot of points for very few, rather fragile models, specializing in taking out the sort of units that cheaper, tougher, more reliable baledrakes already ruin without exerting half so much effort...

 

Like I said, far from optimal.  But still something you might have fun playing around with once in a while, if you happen to be a tzeentch fan.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

My best uses for Ahriman is to load up on Biomancy, putting him with a large thousand sons squad and infiltrating them.

[the jeske]

Meh . If ever used the with 0 1ksons . The fact that a option exist doesn't mean people have to use it . Load up on cultists , helldrakes and oblits and run Ahri with the oblits , preferably teamed up with Belfegor. Ton of telepathy , good fire power with obltis and drakes and cultists hiding to score late game .

[Kol Saresk]

 

Meh . If ever used the with 0 1ksons . The fact that a option exist doesn't mean people have to use it . Load up on cultists , helldrakes and oblits and run Ahri with the oblits , preferably teamed up with Belfegor. Ton of telepathy , good fire power with obltis and drakes and cultists hiding to score late game .

Just because the oblits, drakes and cultists exist, it doesn't mean we should use them. ;)

[the jeske]

Meh . If ever used the with 0 1ksons . The fact that a option exist doesn't mean people have to use it . Load up on cultists , helldrakes and oblits and run Ahri with the oblits , preferably teamed up with Belfegor. Ton of telepathy , good fire power with obltis and drakes and cultists hiding to score late game .

Just because the oblits, drakes and cultists exist, it doesn't mean we should use them.

Not true . We don't have to use bad options [1ksons for example ] , just because something we take buffs it . we don't take power armored dudes using the BL codex . What we do take is stuff that does work and those happen to be oblits and drakes , and because our only cheap troop options are cultists [and because everything else we have costs a lot to work] we take cultists.

Technicly yes one could build a chaos list with 0 oblits , 0 drakes and 0 cultists and that list would suck , it wouldn't be able to deal not with the top of the top[with that chaos has problems what ever it decides to take] , but other bad list .

[crucial]

Meh . If ever used the with 0 1ksons . The fact that a option exist doesn't mean people have to use it . Load up on cultists , helldrakes and oblits and run Ahri with the oblits , preferably teamed up with Belfegor. Ton of telepathy , good fire power with obltis and drakes and cultists hiding to score late game .

Just because the oblits, drakes and cultists exist, it doesn't mean we should use them.

Not true . We don't have to use bad options [1ksons for example ] , just because something we take buffs it . we don't take power armored dudes using the BL codex . What we do take is stuff that does work and those happen to be oblits and drakes , and because our only cheap troop options are cultists [and because everything else we have costs a lot to work] we take cultists.

Technicly yes one could build a chaos list with 0 oblits , 0 drakes and 0 cultists and that list would suck , it wouldn't be able to deal not with the top of the top[with that chaos has problems what ever it decides to take] , but other bad list .

Jeske, do you ever play for fun? Thats using units you simply want to use as opposed to units that the internet overlords tell us to :)

But that oblits drake cultists list sounds boring to play. Min maxed to hell and from experience people don't like playing against it. 2W 2+ save moving artillery and flying ap3 ignore cover template death. I would almost say its not how the game was meant to be played but its went insane over the last edition or so. Still love it tho.

The whole 'Ahriman and his rubrics springing a surprise attack up close & personal with the enemy' thing feels meaty & makes me wwanna try something similar.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Would recommend taking a big squad of rubrics, 10+ for that, with raptors either infiltrated behind them or conventionally deployed to quickly move in to tip a combat in their favor.

[Sception]

Jeske, do you ever play for fun? Thats using units you simply want to use as opposed to units that the internet overlords tell us to.

Not to speak for jeske, who as we all know is more than able to speak for themself, but as a player who does usually play the units I like regardless of rules, playing with bad units - with units that don't have the stats, rules, or equipment to do their jobs, or who cost so many more points than they're worth that you end up spotting your opponent a huge advantage just by fielding them...

 

Well, this isn't the complaint thread, so I won't get into specifics, but I will say there are days where playing the units I want to play regardless of their rules is a source of frustration rather than fun, and I'd have a more enjoyable time if I did stick to drakes/oblits/cultists/units that just work, because at least then I could play against my opponent, without feeling like I was playing against my own codex at the same time.

 

That said, neither raptors, thousand sons, nor ahriman are on the level of something like possessed. They aren't 'good', but they aren't so bad that I've never enjoyed playing them. I'd certainly recommend proxying them out a couple times before buying or converting them to see if they're at all enjoyable for you in practice rather than simply buying them for concept alone, but I'd recommend that even for units that are supposed to be good.

 

Try before you buy is pretty much always a good policy.

[Daevyll]

Well if the models look good, and you like their style of play, you'll find a use for them.

 

Even truly sub-par units (which Raptors are not) get some use if playing someone who you know has limited experience/models/capacity for losing.

[totgeboren]

Well, I have used 10 Raptors with the MoK and Icon plus 2x meltaguns and a powersword for the champ. Turn one they jump and run, hopefully hiding behind something (sometimes two rhinos if I am forced to). Second turn they jump over the rhinos and have their semi-fleet assault move (because of the Khorne Icon), which is almost always enough for them to reach close combat, hitting with a torrent of S5 attacks. Rage and Furious charge works pretty good on them. The big problem is that they are not scoring, their Fear special rule only helps against stuff they already murder in cc (meaning it makes little sense for them to actually pay anything at all for it), and they for some strange reason need to pay extra for VotLW, even though they have as much or as little use for it as bikes or basic CSM.

Also, Khorne Raptors might not fit perfectly into a Thousand Sons themed list, but the extra speed and hitting power the MoK+IoV gives my Raptors changed them from sucky to useful.

 

And as always, compare with bikes and bikes are hands down better, except maybe at attacking people on top of battlements (which could become an issue if Stronghold Assault takes hold).

 

Though I love my bike models, so at least I got that going for me which is nice.

[Hellios]

Well if the models look good, and you like their style of play, you'll find a use for them.

 

Even truly sub-par units (which Raptors are not) get some use if playing someone who you know has limited experience/models/capacity for losing.

 

I can beat people who are also using sub-par units, don't know what they are doing, or are just plain unlucky. Whoah! Let me add this to everything I've taken from 'On War', both of books called 'The Art of War', and 'The Book of Five Rings'.

[Daevyll]

 

Well if the models look good, and you like their style of play, you'll find a use for them.

 

Even truly sub-par units (which Raptors are not) get some use if playing someone who you know has limited experience/models/capacity for losing.

 

I can beat people who are also using sub-par units, don't know what they are doing, or are just plain unlucky. Whoah! Let me add this to everything I've taken from 'On War', both of books called 'The Art of War', and 'The Book of Five Rings'.

 

I think you misunderstand me. What I mean is, if you like a particular set of models but are concerned they are not competitive enough, dont deny youself the pleasure of using them and simply use them when you dont need/want to play your 'a-game'. That's all.

[Forté]

Daevyll. I like your way of thinking.

 

I have one question about Raptors.

 

>If you are running a 6man MoS melta squad with a LC/ PF lord, do you go for CM/LC or CM/Power axe for the champ?

[the jeske]

Jeske, do you ever play for fun? Thats using units you simply want to

use as opposed to units that the internet overlords tell us to

Talking about what is fun , is like talking about color . Using on the other hand is well and easy to define. If a unit that is not 0 pts , does not do what it suppose to do [because it bad at what it is doing , costs too much making not just itself but also other units not work or has a job it will never fullfill unless ones opponent is both incompetent and with bad army] , then the unit is not "being used". Only thing it does is waste points . Take chaos melee units for example . too slow to counter[not that there is much to counter nowadays] ,high cost , with internal balance problems[ a unit of possessed without a shoting weapon and random stats ,costs like a unit of terminators with better stats and shoting weapons] and if they realy face something that does melee they go puff . And they all do that for what my wife calls "fair points" [aka overcosted] . If someone takes them they don't work not matter what he does , the best he can get with them is lucky+bad opponent+bad opposing army . That is not playing the game .

 

Everyone who ever goes to the list sub section knows I can make any lists given under limitation drawn by the poster , but there without loaded dice most of the chaos stuff does not work . And by work I don't mean win tournaments and make screamer star players wet themselfs, I mean melee units that don't melee , support units that doen't do support , shoty units that don't shot , transports that don't exist.

[Tenebris]

Overall I have both a Raptor squad and a Warp Talon squad, both did not perform and thus I returned to my five chaos bikers and a biker lord for the generic CSM army setup, that or hordes of cultists. In the end the Raptors are solid, but just solid, they can be counted to deliver that two melta and one combimelta shot where it is needed but if I want a cheap melta delivery system I always look up to Chaos Bikers first, followed by Chaos Terminators and only than to the Raptors.

 

I had some modest success in three games with Khorne marked Raptors, they cleared me several squads of DKoK and popped a Chimera with a Melta Bomb, but those were little more than a glorified suicide unit, an opening for my Berzerkers to get into melee and get the full bonus of the furious charge unmolested.

 

In the end for swift melee units I favor Chaos Spawn, that or Daemons. Much much better and truth be told more colorful on the board. A pity for I really like the new Raptors and Warp Talons models. 

 

As a setup: Raptors, Mark of Khorne, Melta Bombs, Lightning Claw on the Champion. It gets old fielding them simply as two Melta Guns with jetpacks. 

[Hellios]

 

 

Well if the models look good, and you like their style of play, you'll find a use for them.

 

Even truly sub-par units (which Raptors are not) get some use if playing someone who you know has limited experience/models/capacity for losing.

 

I can beat people who are also using sub-par units, don't know what they are doing, or are just plain unlucky. Whoah! Let me add this to everything I've taken from 'On War', both of books called 'The Art of War', and 'The Book of Five Rings'.

 

I think you misunderstand me. What I mean is, if you like a particular set of models but are concerned they are not competitive enough, dont deny youself the pleasure of using them and simply use them when you dont need/want to play your 'a-game'. That's all.

 

You can use any unit against anyone. People should play with whatever they want to play with. I don't have a 1KSon army because I wanted to become the 40K Grand Champion. I'm the 40K Grand Champion, because I'm just too good.

[Forté]

And humble too Hellios. Ever done a Slaanesh force ;)

[Hellios]

And humble too Hellios. Ever done a Slaanesh force

Only for a 1K doubles tourny (500pts each), but essentially 1K as we both took Chaos (so we could use the same FOC) under the 4th ed dex. I don't remember what he had... I think noise marines as troops... a lash sorcerer with wings or a jetpack... some oblits and maybe some raptors... It was too long ago. I'm always tempted to do more chaos forces... The only chaos stuff in 40K that I've enjoyed doing recently are spawn (I'm working my way from 10 spawn to 15!), and blood pact veterans/khorne wolf scouts.

I really want to do a slaanesh guard army based on rough riders and artillery. All I can say is, Slaanesh themed plague reaper... Bwahahahaha.

[Daevyll]

>If you are running a 6man MoS melta squad with a LC/ PF lord, do you go for CM/LC or CM/Power axe for the champ?

Personally I go for the LC, since with only 1 wound there is too big a chance the champ will die before striking a blow if not hitting at initiative. Plus I prefer the look :)

[Forté]

 

 

>If you are running a 6man MoS melta squad with a LC/ PF lord, do you go for CM/LC or CM/Power axe for the champ?

Personally I go for the LC, since with only 1 wound there is too big a chance the champ will die before striking a blow if not hitting at initiative. Plus I prefer the look :)

Both very valid points too. Cheers.