Viable tactics and loadouts for Vanguard Veterans

[chaplainmikey]

Hi,

I really want to include some Vanguard Veterans in my Crimson Fists army, but as I'm still green when it comes to playing the game, I'm after some advice on how to run them.

 

SS and TT seem really tempting but for the price Terminators with the same weapons look a better option. Are the cheaper Power Weapons a more efficient choice? Does a mix work?

 

Cheers guys. :)

 

 

[corlinjewell]

Here's how I run mine (not saying this is the best by ANY means)

 

5x guys
sgt. w/ lightning claw (find the re-roll wounds can be really handy in challenges)
1x w/ power sword and bolt pistol
1x w/ power axe and bolt pistol
2x w/ storm shield and bolt pistol
All w/ jump packs

Usually run them in a storm raven.  I put the storm shield guys up front to take any wounds (that way I can use their save and if things go sour and I fail them, I don't lose extra points on weapons too)

[Emperors Immortals]

If it helps, I get good results either all melts bombs for tsnks/MC Or just simply 5 man w/ vet.sarge and one power weapon. Nice cheap killy units, better with s chaplain. Usually with packs, though I've been using a razor back lately.

 

Though TBH,, codec:inquisition has opened up accurate drop pods, so gunslinger just became more reliable I guess.

[AceofCase]

5 guys, two have power weapons and bolt pistols, two have storm shields and then the sergeant has a relic blade and storm shield. I run a captain with them, so the sergeant handles any challenges and the captain pushes through some wounds with the rest of the squad to win combat. Oh, and jump packs of course. The mobility helps a lot, I tend to run the squad to protect my tacticals and devastators from any melee units.

[shandwen]

I find that if i want a ap3 weapon, the lightning claw is preferable to the power sword.  You loose one attack, but gain shred, and re-rolling to wound rolls is far better than one extra attack when you have multiple attacks anyways.

I run my Van Vets with a kitted out sgt., relic blade and storm shield, and 2 with storm shields, and 2 plain guys.  If i can squeeze points for it, i take a guy with a pair of lightning claws also (pair only because it looks cooler than a single one).  Now that my best friend got a LRC/LRR i'm going to have to dish out a few melta  bombs also.

On a seperate note though, you really have to dedicate a lot of points to SS and PA's or Thunder Hammers to make them effective against TEQ.  I find its too many points for me, so I equip mine to be Anti-MEQ.

[Giga]

Viable for what? Tournament play or trying to win? In that case, don't take vanguard vets, assault terminators are still better. 

 

Anyway, I think the best way to run them is cheap. So, a full unit with two or three power axes (not on sergeant, sergeant goes naked), in an assault transport (land raider or stormraven). Add a kitted out captain or chapter master with them, and you're good. A chaplain is a viable choice too, as he can actually allow them to do some serious damage. 

 

With a full unit and 3 axes you come out at 235 pts, which I think is decent, especially if your local metagame has a lot of guard, tau, or eldar, as vanguard vets can kill those well. 

[chaplainmikey]

Thanks for all the input guys, certainly given me some ideas.

 

Giga - I'm not looking to build a super-competitive list as I only play against a small group so far, and all our games have been fairly laid back and friendly. That said, I do want to have a reasonable chance of winning and so am looking to learn how best to equip and run my units.

 

Thanks again,

Mike.

[Giga]

In that case, you can do the same thing I do. Get a pair of vindicators + a land raider with an assault HQ and an assault unit inside it (assault terminators, centurions, vanguard, even crusaders or assault marines, all can work fine) and roll those towards the opponent's lines. 

 

It might not be a particularly great tactic nowadays, especially if you're facing tau or eldar, but it's fun and scary and makes up for plenty of memorable moments. ;] 

 

EDIT: Just to give an explanation, vindicators provide target saturation (your opponent can't just shoot everything at your land raider, because he'll be scared of your dual str10 ap2 pieplates) and they're hard to stop due to dozer blades allowing them to roll through terrain and get within range on turn 2. This should enable your vanguard to safely get within charge range as early as turn 2. You can run rhinos or bikes ahead of your LR/vindicators to give them cover saves on turn 1, allowing you to turbo boost to get in range faster. 

 

Long-range anti-tank (predators, autocannon dreadnoughts, devastators, etc.) might be necessary to open enemy transports before your LR reaches them. 

[MagicMan]

I think its worth adding a sixth man to the unit if possible. :)

 

Two Stormshields for soaking up any AP3 or worse that hits the unit, one with a powerfist (because they're cool.. ;) Or a poweraxe to save points) two with a Lightning claw Apiece plus the Sergeant with a relic blade works pretty well for me.

[Black Cohort]

I find vanguard are best kept cheap, if you want them to handle the type of target you would send assault terminators at, just send assault terminators.  Vanguard are better at dealing with weaker mass troops, so a couple of power weapons then just let volume of attacks do the job.  Personally I run 5 with a power sword and power maul.

[AceofCase]

I really think a couple storm shields are worth the cost. In a game last night, I managed to survive hits from the Burning Brand and some lascannon shots from Obliterators with no casualties. (Okay, there was good dice rolling) Without those saves, I would have lost most of that squad.

[Giga]

I really think a couple storm shields are worth the cost. In a game last night, I managed to survive hits from the Burning Brand and some lascannon shots from Obliterators with no casualties. (Okay, there was good dice rolling) Without those saves, I would have lost most of that squad.

The real question here is, why are your opponents shooting lascannons instead of plasma cannons or twinlinked plasmaguns at your vanguard, and how can a ranged flamer template only cover two or three models? >_< 

[Axagoras]

A lot of it is what do you need them to do, if your worried about hordes breaching your line a 5+ man squad with 1 relic blade,  or if armored targets are your threat then use more power weapons and fewer bodies, but I really see vanguard shining as a 10 man squad with packs, relic blade SS on sgt, 2 SS, and 2 guys with LCs and a melta bomb. Thats 310 points and is pretty scary in a more fun setting. on the charge they have 26 normal attacks, 3 s6 ap 3 hits and 6 s4 shread ap 3 hits. that will destroy almost any non 2+ unit in the game and if you get hammer of wrath thats 10 more auto hitting s4 hits. Vanguard are not the "best" unit with the current meta of shoot things till they die while moving 6 inches backwards then moving another d6 rerolling or 2d6 but there not bad.

[AceofCase]

 

I really think a couple storm shields are worth the cost. In a game last night, I managed to survive hits from the Burning Brand and some lascannon shots from Obliterators with no casualties. (Okay, there was good dice rolling) Without those saves, I would have lost most of that squad.

The real question here is, why are your opponents shooting lascannons instead of plasma cannons or twinlinked plasmaguns at your vanguard, and how can a ranged flamer template only cover two or three models? >_< 

The plasma cannons were used to wipe out part of a tactical squad the turn before. And the template got all the models, but the brand is still only strength 4, so not all of the hits managed to wound. Also, smart placement of the models with shields had them taking the wounds first.

[shandwen]

I find vanguard are best kept cheap, if you want them to handle the type of target you would send assault terminators at, just send assault terminators.  Vanguard are better at dealing with weaker mass troops, so a couple of power weapons then just let volume of attacks do the job.  Personally I run 5 with a power sword and power maul.

I have very much wanted to try out the power maul, i just need to find a bit to keep it looking as good as the other choices.  That +2 s is powerful, especially against IG.

[knife&fork]

Frankly the maul is awful for marines. It's so situational that the only place I would consider it in a marine list is on a librarian. When you have 'force' wounding a little easier can make up for allowing saves.

 

If you want a hard hitter, go for the fist, if you are on a budget take the axe.

[Black Cohort]

Most of my power mauls are made from converted thunder hammers, like this guy. 

 

 

I have never understood why people hate the maul, instead of ignoring 3+ saves it wounds most models on a 2+ and you still hit at initiative with the maul.  Sure it would have been nice to get rending or a rending lite on 6s to wound but that would have been way too awesome.  I am fairly sure the only armour a power sword is better against is 3+ and mauls definitely win vs vehicles since most are rear armour 10.  The 4 str 6 attacks the power maul gets can wreck a vehicle on it's own.

[knife&fork]

Marines already come with a S6AP4 weapon for free.... :P And the 5 pt meltabomb is a heck of a lot better vs vehicles. 

 

There are not many dangerous things with 4+ saves. Someone mentioned IG but when does marines struggle with IG to the point where ignoring a 5+ armor will make any noticeable difference? 

 

Mauls will be superior when up against low T, high invul models with a bad regular save. Or things like hammernators where you benefit from going first and forcing a lot of saves. Still not very good value though considering how many attacks you'll need on average to a get a wound through.

 

Axes and fists on the other hand will put more pain on the big nasty MCs marines can struggle with.

 

As usual it's meta dependent but on the whole the AP4 makes mauls not worth it, IMHO.  And this is coming from a BA player, we have access to a chaplain who on the charge can have 8 WS5 S8 attacks. at I6, rerolling hits and wounds! 

[Black Cohort]

But a melta bomb is worthless against anything other than vehicles and only gives one attack which if the vehicle moved means you have a 1/3 chance of missing, and an axe or fist is worthless if you die before you use it.  Good luck doing anything with a sword to a MC and in many cases your non-terminators might not be alive to hit it at I1.

[knife&fork]

But a melta bomb is worthless against anything other than vehicles and only gives one attack which if the vehicle moved means you have a 1/3 chance of missing, and an axe or fist is worthless if you die before you use it.  Good luck doing anything with a sword to a MC and in many cases your non-terminators might not be alive to hit it at I1.

 

The melta bomb has a greater chance of scoring that desirable 'exploded' result to prevent any passengers from disembarking normally or out of sight so you can't assault them. Also a great deterrent for walkers and tank shocks. They can also be used in a pinch against MCs, wounding on 2+ or 4+ with no armor isn't bad for 5 pt item with that much utility. 

 

I'm not advocating swords, at least on VVs, if you want something to strike at I go for a claw. Fists if you reliably want to hurt stuff, axes on a budget.

 

Most MCs will hit before you or simultaneously (except non HT nids and riptides) and often have precision strike. With eldar MCs the maul will only wound on sixes anyway and still allow armor. If you have caught a riptide in CC you already won.

Use positioning to protect your important models.   

[geektom]

This has been a great thread, as I am assembling my first VV squad- this was exactly what I was looking for.

 

Thanks chaplainmikey for getting it started!

 

I am a very fluffy person when building armies, and because of my lightning theme, I was thinking of a 5 man squad: 4 regular vets with 2 Lightning Claws, and the Vet. Sergeant with the Relic Blade and Lightning Claws.

 

Then I added up the points.

 

I am still tempted- how bad of an idea is it?

 

Should I chicken out and go?:

VS: Relic + SS

2 x LC + SS

2 x LC + BP

 

Anyone take the plasma/grav gun?

 

Thanks for your feedback, friends.

[Black Cohort]

the problem with loading Vanguard for all out war is then you have no mooks to take wounds, sure we all want and hope that all 5 make it to melee but being serious a smart opponent is going to send at least some fire their way.  Personally I feel that 2-3 out of 5 with cool toys is a good ratio, gives you the ability to bring the pain down but means that you can take a couple of losses before they really hurt.  If you are going with more than 1-2 storm shields just go with assault terminators, the 2 squads fill different roles in my mind.  Vanguard are there to dish out mass attacks and deal with threats of volume, orks, guard, ect; while assault terminators are there to deal with the big nasties.

[geektom]

So how would you kit yours out, Black Cohort?

 

My thinking was (and please correct me if I am wrong, I am still new) is that each vet having 2 claws gives them 3 attacks (both weapons are specialized) and if they can jump into combat, that is an additional Impact attack each, correct?

 

So that is 16 attacks, 4 that hit automatically, and all attacks that re-roll to wound (shred)?

[Black Cohort]

If you want claws and a relic blade then maybe relic blade, pistol on Sgt, 2 x pair of lightning claws, 2 dudes with BP/ Chainsword.  It will be expensive but any 3+, T4 or worse squad will still get mauled by that hitting them and you have 2 mooks to take wounds before important stuff dies.  Personally I run mine with a power sword and power maul other 3 BP/ chainsword and they seem to do fairly well.

 

Edit: and of course jump packs

[Disruptor_fe404]

2 Attacks base, +1 for two specialist weapons, +1 for charging, and a Hammer of Wrath at I 10 if they get into base-to-base and used the jump pack in the Assault phase.

 

Which comes out to 16 attacks (from the squad, not counting the Sergeant) and 5 Hammer of Wrath hits. Sergeant will get 3 attacks with his relic blade on the charge.

 

My loadout is similar to Black Cohort's: Sergeant with relic blade, 2 Veterans with (single) lightning claw each, 3 Veterans with no upgrades. I prefer to keep Vanguard cheap. I would add maybe two more Veterans (and another single lightning claw) if it were a jump pack unit (being dropped below combat-effective numbers is fairly easily done against Vanguard).