Space Wolves and Other Chapters

[dothac83]

I was curious from a fluff standpoint which of the other Space Marine chapters would the Space Wolves have the best relations with:

 

Ultramarines

Imperial Fists

Raven Guard

Salamanders

Blood Angels

Dark Angels

White Scars 

Iron Hands

 

(And all their Successor Chapters, if any)

 

My thought would be the ones they would probably get along with the most would be the Salamanders and the Blood Angels (which one more so than the other I don't know).

 

Anyone want to throw in their two-cents on which one they would get along with the best?

 

 

[GrandMagnus]

From an Ultramarine point of wiev, Guilliman pointed out that Leman Russ was one of the few primarchs the could truly be trusted and counted him among "the dauntless few". Im not sure if it helps because this was back in the GC - HH, but I have always thought that despite diferences SW and Ultras have good relations.

 

Other than that I dont know.

[Grotsmasha]

Despite the tale of The Lion and The Wolf, the SW and DA get along fine, they just have an honour duel at each engagement they share.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Valerian]

Despite the tale of The Lion and The Wolf, the SW and DA get along fine, they just have an honour duel at each engagement they share.

 

Cheers,

Jono

I was going to say Dark Angels, too. Despite the rocky start, the Lion and the Wolf became close friends. So much so, that one of the theories for Russ' disappearance at the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension was that he went off in search of El Jonson.

 

V

[Kasper_Hawser]

Currently in the 40st Millenium, I don't see the Space Wolves having much relations with the other First Founding Legions. Even though Blood Angels and Salamanders also share their viewpoint of protecting the average imperial citizen, the Wolves have their own suspicions of the Blood Angels curse. According to the Wolves Codex, there is an incident called "Honour's End" where the Wolves were working with the Flesh Tearers to cleanse a world of enemies, but then the Flesh Tearers supposedly got carried away in the fighting and started slaughtering imperial soldiers and citizens as well. The great company who was there (forgot which one), were furious and attacked the Flesh Tearers. Gabriel Seth the Fleshtearer chapter master claimed that the flesh tearers were merely slaughtering the hidden cultists in the civilian population but it seemed a lame excuse to the great company. Needless to say the Wolves definitely do not have good relations with the Flesh Tearers.

 

If the novel Emperor's Gift is accepted as cannon, then the Wolves would have alienated themselves from a vast majority of the Space Marine chapters who take orders from the Inquisition due to the conflict over First War of Armageddon.

 

In contrast to the incident in Emperor's Gift, during the 13th Black Crusade, Logan Grimnar was elected the main commander of the defending imperial forces, some of which included the Imperial Fists and Salamanders. The Dark Angels of course, refused to acknowledge his command (or any other command in any case) but still managed to work together in a few engagements.

 

As for the rest of the chapters, Raven Guard, White Scars, Iron Hands, and Ultramarines, I haven't read anything regarding their current relations. For the UM, I imagine that just because of non-codex compliance, they would despite the SW out of principle, if not have a grudging respect for their alternate ways of war.

[Leif-thunderstand]

"The honors end" was also the first thing i thoght about when its about spacewolves and relations to other chapters. Fleshteares and inquisiton may got the worst relation to SW.

I see best relations to BA. They worked hand in hand together often and never got any badblood betwen em as much as i know

[Karack Blackstone]

As much as some might not want to hear it, part of the relations between the SW and DA there's the incident that Ragnar helps straighten out with their chapter in the course of the books.  For those that have read it, it's the one revolving around Ragnar and the Fallen:

"I said your life would be yours, and it is. *Ragnar drops a chainsword on the ground at the feet of the Fallen Dark Angel.* "As I said, your life is yours; defend it well."

 

 

Outside of DA, with whom the SW honor duel, I would expect that individuals are afforded more of a respect than just blanket Chapter wide conduct.  The Space Wolves seem to view others not as a part of a whole, but as an individual that is amongst a whole.  Take the Emperor's Gift incident; during it all, the actions each person took tended to be the viewpoint the Space Wolves took as far as their overall outlook is concerned.  I'm not therefore sure the entire Chapter would even bother to make assumptions on outlook; by and large, SW's tend to seem to favor, to me at least, a reactive to loyalist action attitude, so as to better determine how to deal with said persons both individually and as a whole.  Is there a bad apple in there?  Wait and see will aid in finding out.

[Jarl Deathwolf]

Hm...

 

Ultramarines - Roboute Gulliman liked Russ, so maybe the UM kept that tradition alive? Though they probably frown on us not reading their book.

 

Imperial Guard, Raven Guard, Iron Hands - I see no major correlation between us and these chapters.

 

Salamanders - We probably get along excellently. We both protect the hell out of common humans, going so far as to fight brother marines for the sake of mere men. 

 

Blood Angels - The Blood Angels get along with EVERYONE. We have similar curses, so we can see eye to eye with each other. The only point that might cause divide is their perceptions of "beauty" and "grace" conflicting with our "smash faces" and "moar ale."

 

Dark Angels - They dislike us (like they do everyone else), but have more respect for us than the other chapters, due to our primarchs' brotherly feud. 

 

White Scars - We're both barbarians, so it works out. I'm sure the Blood Claws at least can appreciate the Khan's bikes. 

 

Besides that, we are all first founding chapters, which creates a binding sense of brotherhood, prestige and respect for each other, due to each's long service in the Allfather's name. Out of all the chapters, I'm thinking we have the best relations with either the White Scars or the Salamanders, since we share backgrounds or ideologies. 

[Darrell]

The Executioners, a third founding successor of the Imperial Fists, found common ground with the Space Wolves during the Plague of Unbelief. They both shared a preference for short-ranged combat and melee, a barbaric and savage nature, as well as an extraordinarily keen sense of honor. The Space Wolves, however, recognized the Executioners were far more grim and taciturn. As a result, the Wolves referred to the Executioners as the "Laughing Axemen" in Fenrisian as an ironic nickname.

 

That was long before the Executioners aided the secessionists during the Badab War, though. I'm not sure how the Wolves would feel about the axemen now, even if they knew the "whole story".

[Kasper_Hawser]

I doubt the Blood Angels curse is known to the general Imperium and even among the Inquisition and other Space Marine chapters, it is generally suspected but not known for sure.

 

Reason I bring this up is that whereas Space Wolves ACCEPT the wulfen curse as part of their heritage, the Blood Angels are ASHAMED of theirs and look constantly to cure it (dates back to even when Sanguinus was alive).

 

So to say Blood Angels and Space Wolves respect each other because of their respective gene seed flaws is not logical to me. Space Wolves still hate mutation as much as the next Space Marine but in their own case, they accept the mutation as something the Emperor and Russ intended all along and do not fight it.

 

As in everything else, the Space Wolves legendary control is paramount to keeping the wolf at bay, only released when they CHOOSE to do so, as opposed to Blood Angels having no choice when succumbing to the Black Rage.

 

Seems like most fluff view Logan Grimnar as an atypical heroic chapter master as opposed to the more cold hearted chapters. So Space Wolves may be popular with Imperial Guard commanders but highly varies according to space Marines.

[Valerian]

I doubt the Blood Angels curse is known to the general Imperium and even among the Inquisition and other Space Marine chapters, it is generally suspected but not known for sure.

 

Reason I bring this up is that whereas Space Wolves ACCEPT the wulfen curse as part of their heritage, the Blood Angels are ASHAMED of theirs and look constantly to cure it (dates back to even when Sanguinus was alive).

 

So to say Blood Angels and Space Wolves respect each other because of their respective gene seed flaws is not logical to me. Space Wolves still hate mutation as much as the next Space Marine but in their own case, they accept the mutation as something the Emperor and Russ intended all along and do not fight it.

 

As in everything else, the Space Wolves legendary control is paramount to keeping the wolf at bay, only released when they CHOOSE to do so, as opposed to Blood Angels having no choice when succumbing to the Black Rage.

 

Seems like most fluff view Logan Grimnar as an atypical heroic chapter master as opposed to the more cold hearted chapters. So Space Wolves may be popular with Imperial Guard commanders but highly varies according to space Marines.

 

Disagree with your assessment of Space Wolves acceptance of the gene flaw and Curse of the Wulfen aka legacy of the Canis Helix.  Wolf Priests have long worked to end the Curse.  One of them was pretty close to success, I think, but was thwarted in Magnus' attack on the Fang.

 

"The Wolf Priests guard the Chapter's genetic seed, bio-culturing new implants and maintaining the vigour of the strain by weeding out any weakness or mutation. Their knowledge is deep, and for many centuries they have studied the effects of the cursed Wulfen gene helix in a search for a way to modify it and make safe the Chapter's genetic seed. However, their efforts have only succeeded in preventing the curse spreading, and it is unlikely that the damage can ever be repaired completely."  - White Dwarf 246

 

V

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

I doubt the Blood Angels curse is known to the general Imperium and even among the Inquisition and other Space Marine chapters, it is generally suspected but not known for sure.

 

Reason I bring this up is that whereas Space Wolves ACCEPT the wulfen curse as part of their heritage, the Blood Angels are ASHAMED of theirs and look constantly to cure it (dates back to even when Sanguinus was alive).

 

So to say Blood Angels and Space Wolves respect each other because of their respective gene seed flaws is not logical to me. Space Wolves still hate mutation as much as the next Space Marine but in their own case, they accept the mutation as something the Emperor and Russ intended all along and do not fight it.

 

As in everything else, the Space Wolves legendary control is paramount to keeping the wolf at bay, only released when they CHOOSE to do so, as opposed to Blood Angels having no choice when succumbing to the Black Rage.

 

Seems like most fluff view Logan Grimnar as an atypical heroic chapter master as opposed to the more cold hearted chapters. So Space Wolves may be popular with Imperial Guard commanders but highly varies according to space Marines.

 

Disagree with your assessment of Space Wolves acceptance of the gene flaw and Curse of the Wulfen aka legacy of the Canis Helix.  Wolf Priests have long worked to end the Curse.  One of them was pretty close to success, I think, but was thwarted in Magnus' attack on the Fang.

 

"The Wolf Priests guard the Chapter's genetic seed, bio-culturing new implants and maintaining the vigour of the strain by weeding out any weakness or mutation. Their knowledge is deep, and for many centuries they have studied the effects of the cursed Wulfen gene helix in a search for a way to modify it and make safe the Chapter's genetic seed. However, their efforts have only succeeded in preventing the curse spreading, and it is unlikely that the damage can ever be repaired completely."  - White Dwarf 246

 

V

 

Hmmm, I stand corrected then. Still, the average Space Wolves doesn't seem haunted by the presence of the Canis Helix as opposed to Blood Angels who live in fear of succumbing to it.

 

"Spoiler for BAttle of the Fang by Chris Wright"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards to Chris Wright "Battle of the Fang", that particular wolf priest who was actively researching a way to control the Canis Helix seemed to be in the minority. The current Great Wolf didn't really give a damn and even Jarl Greyloc, the only wolf lord at the fang at the time, seemed indifferent to whether the Canis Helix could be controlled or not to allow better creation of Wolves astartes.

 

Bjorn himself in the book mentions that he disagrees with the notion of stabilizing the geneseed to allow more Wolves to be easily created: not sure if his own personal opinion reflects what Russ was thinking though. Towards the end, he mentions something like if Magnus hadn't destroyed all the research equipment for the wolves gene seed, he would have done it himself.

 

I'm sure the Wolf Priests would do their level best as the Chapter's equivalents to apothecaries to ensure most of their Blood Claw batch doesn't degenerate into werewolves.

 

Back on topic, again, just because of their geneseed flaws doesn't mean Blood Angels and Space Wolves like or respect one another.

 

On another side topic, any idea what are the numbers Pre-Heresy Legion Space Wolves? I know they are much more smaller than other legions, big ones like UM being 200,000+, BA being 100,000+, even Raven Guard is something like 90,000, (85,000 died on Istvaan according to Deliverance Lost I think)

[Max_Dammit]

Didn't the wolves witness the gene flaw of the ravenguard?

 

Yep it is the "Saga of the Weregeld"

[Kasper_Hawser]

Saga of the Weregeld? Is that a Space Wovles short story written somewhere? Where can I find it?

 

In the Blood Angels Omnibus, apparently the Blood Angels heard secondhand from the Space Wolves rumours about the Raven Guard mutants. But I'm a little confused, I thought all the mutants were destroyed by Corax himself before he disappeared. Don't tell me the Raven Guard still experiment with their own geneseed until the 41st Millenium. I understand that their geneseed has lost two of the normal implants, but hey, so have the Imperial Fists.

[Max_Dammit]

Just google it, thats all the info i have now, I have it somewhere on paper but no idea in what book

[burningblades20]

Saga of the Weregeld? Is that a Space Wovles short story written somewhere? Where can I find it?

 

In the Blood Angels Omnibus, apparently the Blood Angels heard secondhand from the Space Wolves rumours about the Raven Guard mutants. But I'm a little confused, I thought all the mutants were destroyed by Corax himself before he disappeared. Don't tell me the Raven Guard still experiment with their own geneseed until the 41st Millenium. I understand that their geneseed has lost two of the normal implants, but hey, so have the Imperial Fists.

It's in the Raven Guard Index Astartes and the only reason they had guys like that is explained in the story.

[Night Runner]

The Executioners, a third founding successor of the Imperial Fists, found common ground with the Space Wolves during the Plague of Unbelief. They both shared a preference for short-ranged combat and melee, a barbaric and savage nature, as well as an extraordinarily keen sense of honor. The Space Wolves, however, recognized the Executioners were far more grim and taciturn. As a result, the Wolves referred to the Executioners as the "Laughing Axemen" in Fenrisian as an ironic nickname.

 

That was long before the Executioners aided the secessionists during the Badab War, though. I'm not sure how the Wolves would feel about the axemen now, even if they knew the "whole story".

Where did you read this?  I would like to go over it.  I honestly never read it or have absolutely forgot the reference.

[Darrell]

The blurb is in Imperial Armor 10, the second Badab War book, in the Executioners section. It's mentioned in one of their historic combats.

 

Edit:

 

The Fourth Company Librarium blog has, I believe, the relevant section posted. It follows.

 

The Invasion of Nova Sulis, The Plague of Unbelief (302.M36)

 

During the Plague of Unbelief, the Executioners were one of the first Chapters to declare war on the empire of the heretic Cardinal Bucharis. Bucharis was engaged in an ongoing siege of Fenris, home world of the Space Wolves, and this siege was supplied by the hive world of Nova Sulis. The Executioners assaulted Nova Sulis in order to weaken the siege, and slaughtered every human that did not prostrate themselves before the rampaging marines. When they departed, the severed heads of the populace were left lining the streets of the razed cities.

 

During these wars, the Executioners found kindred spirits in the more jovial Space Wolves, who ironically referred to the Executioners as "laughing axe men” in Fenrisian. For their role in ending the Plague of Unbelief, the Executioners were granted a successor Chapter, the Iron Champions.

[Lord Ragnarok]

My personal take is that the sw get along with chapters which align well with their concepts of honor.

 

I'll add another chapter to the mix. The Executioners chapter gets along well with the sw's according to the Badaab forge world books. They helped aid us dueling the apostasy events.

[Valerian]

"

On another side topic, any idea what are the numbers Pre-Heresy Legion Space Wolves? I know they are much more smaller than other legions, big ones like UM being 200,000+, BA being 100,000+, even Raven Guard is something like 90,000, (85,000 died on Istvaan according to Deliverance Lost I think)"

 

It was 10,000, according to hint/implication in WD244. As with most fluff stuff the writers don't just outright say it, in order to maintain some of the mystery.

 

Furthermore, in their Index Astartes article (WD283), it is stated that the original 13th Campany would have been about the size of a contemporary Chapter (so o/a 1,000 men) all suffering from the Curse of the Wulfen.

 

V

[ZONKEY]

I imagine the space wolves getting a long with the white scars

[Grey Mage]

Currently in the 40st Millenium, I don't see the Space Wolves having much relations with the other First Founding Legions. Even though Blood Angels and Salamanders also share their viewpoint of protecting the average imperial citizen, the Wolves have their own suspicions of the Blood Angels curse. According to the Wolves Codex, there is an incident called "Honour's End" where the Wolves were working with the Flesh Tearers to cleanse a world of enemies, but then the Flesh Tearers supposedly got carried away in the fighting and started slaughtering imperial soldiers and citizens as well. The great company who was there (forgot which one), were furious and attacked the Flesh Tearers. Gabriel Seth the Fleshtearer chapter master claimed that the flesh tearers were merely slaughtering the hidden cultists in the civilian population but it seemed a lame excuse to the great company. Needless to say the Wolves definitely do not have good relations with the Flesh Tearers.

 

If the novel Emperor's Gift is accepted as cannon, then the Wolves would have alienated themselves from a vast majority of the Space Marine chapters who take orders from the Inquisition due to the conflict over First War of Armageddon.

Very, very few chapters take orders from the inquisition in a direct manner. An inquisitor has the right to collect troops for imperial campaigns, but SMs have the right to deny those requests if they have good reason, or find the mission spurious.

 

And as for the first war of armaggeddon- I suppose it depends if were going with 'mindwipe all marines' or not. If we are, most them would be curious as to the details of how we broke angron, since theyre not aware of the GKs.

[Chief Captain Redd]

"

On another side topic, any idea what are the numbers Pre-Heresy Legion Space Wolves? I know they are much more smaller than other legions, big ones like UM being 200,000+, BA being 100,000+, even Raven Guard is something like 90,000, (85,000 died on Istvaan according to Deliverance Lost I think)"

 

It was 10,000, according to hint/implication in WD244. As with most fluff stuff the writers don't just outright say it, in order to maintain some of the mystery.

 

Furthermore, in their Index Astartes article (WD283), it is stated that the original 13th Campany would have been about the size of a contemporary Chapter (so o/a 1,000 men) all suffering from the Curse of the Wulfen.

 

V

If I remember correctly Laurie Goulding said something along the lines that even as recently as Prospero Burns that the Wolves were written undersized and they should be closer to the 100,000 mark.

 

Also in Betrayal, the allies grid has Wolves and Imperial Fists as Brother in Arms or Battle Brothers or whatever it is. But considering both chapters tendency for long standing traditions, I could see that bond still standing.

[Darrell]

I believe A D-B has made a few posts on the B&C indicating Legion numbers prior to First Heretic should be multiplied by ten.

[-Volsung-]

Here's an interesting perspective...

 

I theorize that the Space Wolves are defined by their leaders, and the respect and reputation they have in the eyes of others depend on the leadership and qualities of a specific Great Wolf at that specific time.

 

Other chapters, like Ultramarines and even Blood Angel and Dark Angel, are the same throughout as new Chapter masters live, die, and are replaced, because they follow strict, stable age-old traditions. (kinda like a Prussian army, or an old European unit like the Swiss Guards) (EDIT: or Samurais & Imperial Japanese deriving traditions from bushido after the Meiji reforms)

 

Space Wolves SET traditions (kinda like the American army, changing profoundly based on the nation's administrations over time), so perhaps that's why Grimnar's Wolves in one millennia might be more rebellious with a warm-hearted Robin-Hood compassion for the ordinary citizens, while Bjorn's Wolves thousands of years past might have been vengeful and guilt-ridden pragmatic arses, or Russ's Wolves being cold and brutal killers, for example. 

 

Thus the Ultramarine might love Grimnar, but might hate, say, Ragnar if Ragnar took over. Whereas, the Ultramarine might like (or dislike) the Dark Angel regardless of who the Grand Master is because that chapter's persona remained consistent through the ages.

 

Discuss?