farsight vs DA @ 1k

[facmanpob]

Next Scenario is the 5 DWK + 5 DWT (Thundernators/power fists on all but the Sergeant). No RWBK means the enemy deathstar remains T6...

The DWK wounds from the previous scenario carry over, so that's 3 or 4 unsaved AP2 wounds.

The 4 PF/TH get 12 attacks on the charge ~ 8 hits ~ 6 or 7 wounds vs 5++ or 4++ ~ 3 or 4 unsaved wounds again.

So, overall the attack will net us around 7 unsaved wounds, but won't double out an enemy unit if the Riptides/shielded missile drones are tanking.

However, we need to factor in 2 Land Raider Crusaders shooting a total of 4 hurricane bolters prior to the assault... (and I've just been called into a meeting so someone else will have to work that our for me!)

[march10k]

...and the most important thing is that the enemy survivors are locked in a melee that they can't win.

 

Incidentally, my monkey math says 27 attacks (that matter), 18 hits, 15 wounds, then either 10 or 7 unsaved (not counting the 32 shots from two crusaders). After that, it drops off dramatically, but you've taken the bite out of his list, and you're facing the survivors of his 800 point AYEIOB unit with under 500 points of your own, and the tau are skrood.

[facmanpob]

...and the most important thing is that the enemy survivors are locked in a melee that they can't win.

The thing that worries me slightly is the presence of Farsight. In order for the enemy Deathstar to be legal (as I understand the rules) Commander Farsight and O'Vesa must be part of the enemy force (Farsight is needed in order to make O'Vesa available, and O'Vesa is needed in order to join 2 Riptides together iirc). Farsight has 4 attacks, WS5, S5 and an AP2 sword... all striking at I5. He's going to do a bit of damage! So in order to try to alleviate the problem, we challenge the enemy using our Deathwing Master. His Flail is only AP3 and can't Smite, so he's wasted against the Riptides. The Tau player has to accept the challenge with someone, otherwise we'll choose Farsight to sit out the combat...

So we'll end up with our DW Master and one of either Farsight, the other XV8 Commander (who was set up as a Raven'O - 'buffmander' with no particular offensive capabilities or O'Vesa (who has WS1). We also have a largely useless DW Sergeant with power sword as a back-up challenge-monkey. Chances are that he will pick the O'Vesa for the challenge, and the 2 will plink away at each other ineffectually until the end of time!

Overall I think that the fight will end well for the Deathwing, and in the meantime, our two LRC are shooting the bejeezus out of his troop units and winning the game for us!

[march10k]

Oh, you're right about the two named characters. It's hard to spend 800 points on a single digit number of models and not get a dangerous result...but it's also hard to spend over 100 ppm and be points-efficient. Hitting this deathstar with terminators on turn two is a worst-case scenario for the tau player. You're spending one turn of shooting from 500 points worth of tanks, and then locking down his shooty deathstar (with one model that's dangerous to termies, but you get a 3+ save) in turn two. Your long term commitment it roughly 470 points to his 800, and your 470 beat his 800 in melee. You will lose models, but even if his last deathstar member limps out as the winner on turn 5, DA win the game because you had the hard counter to his cheese.

[facmanpob]

And the best thing is that his cheese was countered without any particular DA cheese..... "hey, they're only Land Raiders, every Space Marine codex gets them.... hey they're only terminators...."

[march10k]

That's a good point. Any marine army could do the same thing with two mounted thundernator squads, only they wouldn't be scoring and there'd be ten T6 beating models instead of eight.

[facmanpob]

We do get the advantage of the DWK Smite mode for a turn, which if coupled with RWBK rad grenades would make mincemeat of big T6 deathstars

[SvenONE]

Sounds like we have some good examples.

 

I agree with the black knight/dwk combo, but in a TAC list, how often are you running RWBKs AND DWKs? Not saying that the combo doesn't work, just that without knowing you're going against this list, I don't really see that combo run that often.  A lot of our discussions here are about how we put models on the table that aren't scoring, and now we've just spent a lot doing so.  Again, not saying the combo won't work (it obviously will, and really well) a Knight/Knight list is rarely even presented on these boards.

 

I hands down agree that a landraider dumping either TH/SS or DWKs out of it to assault tau is the best bet.  I see a ton of Tau players deploy at their board edge so the good news is that even if you spend 2 turns getting into assault and taking the wounds, the first round of combat will in all likelihood being the only round of combat they are good for.

 

That particular unit the OP described, 800 points they may be, are not fearless, and S8/AP2 or S10/AP IS going to cause some hurt.  Not to mention all of our HQs are pretty good competition for Tau HQs.

 

DWKs I still think are a good Tau killer given that they are WS5 as opposed to regular terminators who are still going to be hit on 4+, that 5+ makes a huge difference, especially since the hits from riptides are going to be AP2.  I ain't afraid of no ghosts!!

[Pyro X]

march10k, on 18 Dec 2013 - 05:46, said:

...and the most important thing is that the enemy survivors are locked in a melee that they can't win.

the unit had hit and run as well and 1 of the named characters in it was INT 5.

 

Also I never said that the unit was unkillable n general, but there was nothing I could do to kill it at 1000 points.

if I took belial, 2x 5 termies base and 1 land raider I would be sitting at 910 points before any upgrades.

 

now I did find something I kinda liked though. I'm not playing him again but this looks like it could have worked.

 

librarian on bike with force axe displacer field, and digital weapon (could do PFG)

3x 5m scouts w/ ML and flak.

6m DWK in land raider (pick 1, it doesn't matter).

 

The problem was this list focuses on if he played that list. a normal tau or farsight list would kill this one I'd think.

The deathstar list would focus fire on the LR (of course) and probly be able to kill it before it made it into charge range.

the knights, if they make it, would charge and the librarian would assault 2nd. the sgt of DWK would challenge so he he died

in the challenge thats fine. the librarian would have cast 1 spell to buff or debuff depending on the role and the use the

force weapon and hopeful ID 1 or 2 models. I'd have tried to get close to the NON IC riptide so he can't lookout sir onto

both shield missle drones. (librarian is int 5, DWK is int 4, etc etc)

 

Thats in the best case that I could see.

[il-Fieres]

In all scenarios mentioned, we start at the minimum 24" inches apart and we are assuming that we go first.

 

The Tau Firebase Support Cadre generates an obscene amount of shots (3 Broadsides + 6 Drones) 36 shots (S5 & S7). at 30" range for less than 300pts. Backed up by re-rolls (either via psykers or the Bane of Angels special rule [Preferred Enemy top all Marines except Chaos Space Marines]) the damage caused is enourmous. Even with 2+ save, casualties will be inflicted, let alone against a 6 bike squad or 10 Tactical o 6/7 Dev Squad.

 

To make matters worse, they have the Intercept rule for 5 points upgrade per suit, so the same amount of shots would be directed at the Drop Pod / Terminator unit. And I have not mentioned the Riptide.

[Pyro X]

the tau player did go first, the mission was the one where we each had 1 objective (not that needed it), deployment was the last one so we were catercorner, and it was starting night fight.

[The Acid Dog]

I think someone has already mentioned this, but have you gotten a look at his list?  I don't think it's legal.  Based on everything you said (Farsight Command w/ Riptide and two battlesuits, 1 unit of 1 and 1 unit of 3 battlesuits with no weapons, and a Riptide) that comes out to 1024 points. With no upgrades and the two CHEAPEST commander suits available in the command squad (which I'm almost certain he did not use).  If he took the Command Squad without Farsight he'd make the points, but that's illegal in the first place anyway (They're bodyguards, so he must be either included in the choice, or taken separate for them to be available).  Maybe I'm wrong, but something about that list seems iffy.

[facmanpob]

Just a couple of bits and bobs....

 

I think the enemy Deathstar consisted of (from piecing together various posts):

 

Farsight

O'Vesa + 2 x shielded missile drones

Tau Empire XV8 Commander with Vectored Retro-thrusters, MSSS, and probably CNC if he is setting up the Raven'O correctly

XV8 with Target Lock and some weapons

Riptide with some weapons and Target Lock

 

Comes to at least 850 points

 

The compulsory 3 man XV8 team for the Farsight portion of the list is 69 points without weapons... and there are at least 2 more troop options to be taken.... so I would agree that I think the list was over 1000 points. I would seriously consider challenging the guy to present his army list so that it can be pointed up correctly, and checked for any legality issues.

 

 

@Il-Fieres - there is no mention anywhere of the Tau Cadre Firebase Formation being taken in this particular game, so whilst you are correct in saying that it would do serious damage, it isn't really relevant to the discussion. The particular deathstar being talked about in this thread is really not very good at taking out AV14, containing only fusion blasters which need to be within 9" to get the 2D6 melta rule, and ion accelerators which need to nova-charge to get up to S9 to give them a hope of putting a dent into AV14. A Land Raider in this particular game would have been nigh-on unstoppable.

 

@PyroX - yes the Vectored Retro Thrusters would enable Hit & Run... that is a concern. Dealing with Farsight is one of those things - he's good but he is still only T4 3+ 4++.

 

@SvenOne - I always try to put RWBK and DWK into my lists..... they are the nearest things we get to cheese in our codex, and they synergise very well, especially in a bike heavy army. Generally I deep strike the DWK in using the bike homers, but I would consider a LRC as a sound investment.

[Pyro X]

He is T 4 but in a squad while shooting he is in a squad of t 6