Tank Hunters doesnt work against Super Heavies

[Nusquam]

Am I the only one who noticed this? I googled and searched various forums. No one is talking about this.

 

So I was reading the back of Escalation when I noticed a bonus mission that had Lord of War traits. One gave it Tank hunters that specifically said it works against super heaviest too. So I thought "Why does it specifically say supet heavies? I though tank hunters was against vehicles." So I scoured the book and the apoc book for any sub note or missed rule, nothing.

 

Then it dawned on me: Tanks Hunters does work on all vehicles. Super heavies aren't vehicles they are Super Heavy Vehicles, they use the rules for vehicles but are a seperate entity. Tank hunters does not work.

 

So IF devs and the Tau formation don't do anything against them.

 

Well. Snap.

[hallodx]

Depend on how you read the rule I think.

I think Vehicle is a root class, while Super Heavy Vehicle inherented Vehicle and changed some members in it. So to me, it is still vehicle.

 

Sorry talk in object oriented language style, but that's how I understand it.

 

Or it's just like the White Horse Not Horse argument from China.

[Nusquam]

I thought that way too. The Escalation book actually classifies Super Heavies as a separate entity than vehicles and I didn't realize that the first few times reading it. They use the general rules for vehicles but they specifically aren't treated as "vehicles" they are "super heavy vehicles". The word "vehicles" isn't inclusive to all things possessing "vehicle" in their name. Otherwise there would be no point in that trait that specifically says its like tank hunters but works on super heavies too.

 

It also makes sense from the description of heavies being indomitable machines, lumbering this, massive crews that that goes on for a few paragraphs.

 

So my mind is blown.

[hallodx]

I don't have the book right now, and I think unless there's rule specifically point out it is not a vehicle, we should still see it as vehicle.

 

The issue you posted is because SHV shouldn't be popped by a D weapon shot, so GW added that, and that doesn't prevent them from BEING vehicle at general cases.

[Morollan]

I don't have the book right now, and I think unless there's rule specifically point out it is not a vehicle, we should still see it as vehicle.

 

I tend to agree. Escalation says this:

 

 

Super-heavy vehicles use all of the rules for vehicles as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, with the additional rules and exceptions given below.

 

So unless there's something specifically saying that tank hunters doesn't work I'd say it does.

[Nusquam]

Then why didn't they just make that trait plain Tank Hunter? D-Weapons dont roll for pen so they don't matter. Also super heavies are introduced as a different unit type and (like that quote) use the rules for vehicles but they aren't treated as vehicles. They are treated as Super Heavy Vehicles. You have to be treated as a vehicle to trigger Tank Hunters. SHV are a whole new level of beast.

 

Which already ignore things like shaken, immobilized and so on. It's not far fetched to say that they are such powerful machinations even skills tank hunters have trouble piercing their hull.

[Morollan]

If the GW team don't want to have to go through the entire rulebook, every codex, every supplement etc and replace every mention of the word 'vehicle' with 'vehicle (including super heavy vehicles)' then the most obvious thing to do is to say that they use the rules for vehicles and leave it at that. Tank Hunters works against vehicles. Super heavies use the rules for vehicles. Therefore tank hunters works against super heavies (unless listed in the exceptions, which it isn't).

[Spinsanity]

 

 

Super-heavy vehicles use all of the rules for vehicles as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, with the additional rules and exceptions given below.

So unless there's something specifically saying that tank hunters doesn't work I'd say it does.

I think the rules are quite specific; it works just like any vehicle, except where explicitly noted... So if there's no "exception given below" that says TH doesn't work on them, it does.

[Jolemai]

Aren't Super Heavies a subsection of Vehicles, like Tank, Dreadnought, etc, are?

[Grey Mage]

If so, they act differently than other subsections by having their own subsection in turn. As there are superheavy transports/walkers/flyers etc. I prefer to look at it as an extra description *like tank* that just happens to come first.

 

That being said, its worth looking at and analyzing from the ground up if anyone would like to do so.

[Nusquam]

I'll give it a whirl.

 

All Lord of War units have one of the following new unit types: Super-Heavy...

 

So already they are a brand new unit type. How do we use them?

 

Super-heavy vehicles use all of the rules for vehicles as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, with the additional rules and exceptions given below.

 

Ok so we use the vehicle rules for movement etc and the additional rules on this page, but they aren't vehicles, which is a unit type(with sub-types being tank, skimmer etc) they are still a separate unit entry entirely.

 

...The Lord of War unit gains the Titan Hunter special rule (this is the Tank Hunter special rule but it also works against Super-heavy Vehicles)

 

Why so specific? Because Tank Hunters works against the Unit Type: Vehicle, not the unit type: Super-heavy Vehicle.

[Seahawk]

 

""we will now cover a series of unit types.../...Vehicles are distinct enough to require their own section later on."

 

"The different types of Vehicle are: Chariot, Fast, Flyer, Heavy, Hover, Open-topped, Skimmer, Tank, Transport and Walker. These types can be combined to define a Fast Skimmer, in which case, the vehicle has all of the rules for all of its types."

So, Vehicle is a unit type, and there are different types of Vehicle.

 

 

 

"All Lords of War units have one of the following new unit types, which are explained in detail in this section: Super-heavy vehicles, Super-heavy Walkers, Super-heavy Flyers, Gargantuan Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures. 

So, the units in Escalation are of a new unit type that's not in the BRB.

 

Also of note is that Necron scarabs and other armor eaters do not work on Super-heavy Vehicles. Another item of note is that units such as the Baneblade are not "Tanks", meaning they cannot tank shock/ram. Instead, they gain the rule called Thunderblitz, which allows them to tank shock or ram.Additionally, they use different Transport rules than normal vehicles.

 

All of this combined (including the Lord of War trait) would convince me that Super-heavy vehicles are not affected by Tank Hunters.

 

 

The only thing that still sticks out to me is how the unit type is listed in the unit entries. For instance, a Rhino is: Vehicle (Tank, Transport). A Banehammer is: Vehicle (Super-heavy vehicle, Transport). That doesn't offer much distinction between them, and makes the Super-heavy designation a Vehicle Type, rather than a Unit Type.

[Nusquam]

The only thing that still sticks out to me is how the unit type is listed in the unit entries. For instance, a Rhino is: Vehicle (Tank, Transport). A Banehammer is: Vehicle (Super-heavy vehicle, Transport). That doesn't offer much distinction between them, and makes the Super-heavy designation a Vehicle Type, rather than a Unit Type.

 

 

I see what you mean. This leads me to believe that the first word "Vehicle" defines the rule set it uses and the following like Tank, Skimmer, Super-heavy etc defines the actual entity as well as additional rules that stem from that designation. Like how SHV have their own Transport rules that differ from, say, a standard skimmer.

[bystrom]

Also of note is that Necron scarabs and other armor eaters do not work on Super-heavy Vehicles. Another item of note is that units such as the Baneblade are not "Tanks", meaning they cannot tank shock/ram. Instead, they gain the rule called Thunderblitz, which allows them to tank shock or ram.Additionally, they use different Transport rules than normal vehicles.

Entropic Strike works on vehicles. Tank Hunter works on vehicles. If Tank Hunter doesn't work on Super-heavy Vehicles, then why would the argument that Entropic Strike is explicitly spelled out (or rather armour eaters) as not working be an argument that TH doesn't work? It would rather be an argument for TH to work, seeing as nowhere does it explicitly say TH doesn't work.

 

Also, as you've noted, a Baneblade is a Vehicle (Super-heavy vehicle, Transport). TH works on Vehicles. How can anyone argue that TH doesn't work against a Baneblade?

[Nusquam]

Seahawks post example of how some normal rules don't apply to SHVs. The rule book spelling it out is to further explain how resistant a SHV is.
 
Also can you explain this?:

 

...The Lord of War unit gains the Titan Hunter special rule (this is the Tank Hunter special rule but it also works against Super-heavy Vehicles)

 

Why would something so specific exist? This tells use that TH does not work on SHVs unless you have this trait. The why is explained in game mechanics above.

[Grey Mage]

 

 

 

The only thing that still sticks out to me is how the unit type is listed in the unit entries. For instance, a Rhino is: Vehicle (Tank, Transport). A Banehammer is: Vehicle (Super-heavy vehicle, Transport). That doesn't offer much distinction between them, and makes the Super-heavy designation a Vehicle Type, rather than a Unit Type.

This seems pretty conclusive though.

 

Perhaps Nusquam, the Titan Hunter rule is a hold over from a test version where THs did not work against superheavies, but that was later changed and this was missed? That kind of thing has happened.

[Nusquam]

 

 

 

The only thing that still sticks out to me is how the unit type is listed in the unit entries. For instance, a Rhino is: Vehicle (Tank, Transport). A Banehammer is: Vehicle (Super-heavy vehicle, Transport). That doesn't offer much distinction between them, and makes the Super-heavy designation a Vehicle Type, rather than a Unit Type.

This seems pretty conclusive though.

 

Perhaps Nusquam, the Titan Hunter rule is a hold over from a test version where THs did not work against superheavies, but that was later changed and this was missed? That kind of thing has happened.

 

 

Entirely possible, I think I will ask that Eddie character over on digital editions. See what happens. I'm pretty neutral either way tbh.

[Seahawk]

The biggest problem is that the Super-heavy designation is explicitly stated to be a new Unit Type, not a Vehicle Type. After which, naturally, it's presented as a Vehicle Type and not a Unit Type. If it's meant to be a UT, it'd be: Super-heavy Vehicle (Walker, Transport) and so on. As a VT, it goes as shown.

 

Hmph.

 

Then there's the ultimate specificity of that Titan Hunters ability, which would seem to indicate that Tank Hunters doesn't work against Super-heavy Vehicles.

[Morollan]

The biggest problem is that the Super-heavy designation is explicitly stated to be a new Unit Type, not a Vehicle Type. After which, naturally, it's presented as a Vehicle Type and not a Unit Type. If it's meant to be a UT, it'd be: Super-heavy Vehicle (Walker, Transport) and so on. As a VT, it goes as shown.

 

Hmph.

 

Then there's the ultimate specificity of that Titan Hunters ability, which would seem to indicate that Tank Hunters doesn't work against Super-heavy Vehicles.

 

On the flipside of that is pretty much every ability in the rulebook that says "vehicle" would not work against superheavy vehicles. So lances, haywire weapons, armourbane etc. This seems to be contradicted by the Invincible Behemoth rule in the Escalation book which implies (not outright states, admittedly) that things like lances would work normally.

[Spinsanity]

Hmm, thinking back on it, I think Nusquam might have hit on something :

 

SHV uses all rules for vehicles, with noted additions and exceptions.

 

Fine.

 

However, the Tank Hunter rules are NOT part of the vehicle rules, and are therefore irrelevant in this case.

 

TH gives a bonus against vehicles, which SHV are not...

 

Makes sense?

[Morollan]

Hmm, thinking back on it, I think Nusquam might have hit on something :

 

SHV uses all rules for vehicles, with noted additions and exceptions.

 

Fine.

 

However, the Tank Hunter rules are NOT part of the vehicle rules, and are therefore irrelevant in this case.

 

TH gives a bonus against vehicles, which SHV are not...

 

Makes sense?

 

See my previous comment, plus the fact that super heavy vehicles are shown in Escalation as Unit Type: Vehicle (Super Heavy Vehicle)

 

Baneblade: UNIT TYPE: Vehicle (Super-heavy vehicle).

Banehammer: UNIT TYPE: Vehicle (Super-heavy vehicle, Transport)

 

Etc, etc.

[Nusquam]

I get the feeling there was a rule break down some where across the books. Especially when you think about Lance and such and how they seem to be vaguely referenced in the Behemoth rule. One of the Alter of War missions(which I highly recommend you read, it really balances LoWs more) in the back of the book gives units that control objectives things like armourbane on their weapons. I'm going to guess this was for the player without the LoW to combat it, but if it doesn't work whats the point?
 
 Several possibilities exist:

• TH was not supposed to work because it targets a Unit type and things like Lance do because they target armour(and have misleading wording)
• None of that works because Super-heavy and let the galaxy burn and other things might have affects and we just don't realize it yet.
• Everything works normally they just didn't realize that RAW made Super-heavies invalid targets for certain rules. The trait being a leftover from a previous version.
• There's some foot note somewhere buried across two books that is the missing link and we have yet to find it.

Here's an update:

Games Workshop: Digital Editions Good question [NAME REDACTED],
I don't know I'm afraid, but will pass your question on to the rules guys.
You can get in touch with them directly here:
Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

thanks,
- Eddie

I'll be sending them an email to see what happens

 

Update #2: They emailed me back, no ruling but its being considered for the FAQ.

[Gumo9]

Seems very clear to me.

 

It says "Titan Hunter special rule (this is the Tank Hunter special rule but it also works against Super-heavy vehicles)". Therefore the Tank Hunter special rule does not work on Super-heavies.

 

People can play semantics all they want with the wording of the special rule or what is classed as a vehicle, but if Tank Hunter works on super-heavies then why have this particular Lord of War Trait at all?

 

Of course it would have saved everyone arguing if the Escalation book had a little addendum to clarify, but that would have been too easy

 

G

[Grey Mage]

The reason theres an argument is that this would not in any way be the first time GW had written something like that in a splat book, and it didnt imply the inverse *that the other rule didnt also do this*.

[Gumo9]

Agreed !

 

G