Space Wolfs Vs Primarchs

[Conn Eremon]

Internet conversations have a tendency to instill a little paranoia in some of us, apparently.

 

Anywho, to bring the linked post into this thread, basically what ADB said (or from what I gathered of it) was that the purpose of the battle was to trigger the speech and not a duel to the death, mutual or otherwise. And, that nobody should say with absolute conviction who would come out the better. Context is everything, and it could go any number of ways. Russ could have been killed by Angron, or Russ could have turned it around and killed Angron, or everyone would have just slaughtered each other until the last Wolf falls dead from his wounds upon the last World Eater. All we can really say is which we would prefer to have happen.

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. The whole point was to highlight Angron's, and the World Eaters', mental instability.

[Kais Klip]

And while said mental instability would have perhaps allowed him to kill Russ, in cases such as those Kurze was right; death would be nothing compared to vindication.

[Kol Saresk]

See? I told everyone the Night Lords were doing it right.

Note: Do NOT take this comment seriously.

[Conn Eremon]

You know, since Kurze was brought up, I have always had it in my head that the reason why Angron is seen as the warrior Primarch isn't simply skill, as many Primarchs can say they lived lived of constant battle, but the Nails giving him a berserker rage. All offense, no thoughts to defense, just an unrelenting barrage. The same reason real berserkers were so terrifying, though their very nature meant they rarely survived the battle. Since Angron is a Primarch, he always survives the battle. It is this that pushes him into the realm of top tier.

 

And it is the same thing that makes me think Kurze falls into that category as well. A lot of people thought it odd that Kurze was so capable, so deadly. A lot of people lumped him with Lorgar. I don't see it that way. Kurze is nuts. He is insane, literally, and that lends him a lot of strength. I have a cousin who worked years in an asylum as a nurse-guard. He is a big dude, and was a martial arts and exercise aficionado. He loved it and was good at it. About 220 pounds of mostly muscle, he was more of a bruiser than graceful. But the stories he would tell, like of a man a head shorter, with arms thin enough to make pencil-pushing a strenuous activity, bodily lifting him off the ground and throwing him over a table the long way. Of small individuals taking four or five strong, capable and experienced men to hold down. He once told me an explanation, and I could be remembering it wrong, but there is something in our minds that prevents us from truly giving it a 100%. It always holds something back, because it could mean death if we had nothing left. Defense mechanism that prevents us from using all of our energy too quickly. But it can be overridden. It is the source of those stories of mothers lifting cars off their children, or addicts taking great firepower to finally be put down. And the clinically insane just don't have it.

 

Kurze is clinically insane. And like Angron, he is a freaking Primarch. He doesn't run out of energy, even going a hundred percent. And I think that should place him to be in the same realm as those like Angron. As a Raven Guard fan, the idea that Corax is afraid of fighting Kurze is perfectly acceptable to me. Kurze should be terrifying. Not just as a nightmare made flesh, but as an insane warrior who takes a thousand mortal wounds to stop.

[Kol Saresk]

Adrenaline. It's called "adrenaline". And it comes in needle variety.

[Conn Eremon]

Maybe, he could have been speaking of a natural limiter that prevents it from damaging the brain and using up all of your energy. I don't remember him using that word, though, so I think he meant something else.

 

I don't know, I was starry eyed kid at the time who thought he was Bruce Lee meets Stone Cold Steve Austin. It was some time ago.

[Kais Klip]

I think he might have been referencing the fact that our muscles can exert _much_ more force than our ligaments and tendons can withstand, and the only thing prohibiting them is our subconscious.

 

I agree with you that his insanity is definitely the source of his power, as I think Corax stated in our favourite book Deliverance Lost Curze's insanity made him a genius as frequently as it crippled him. More of a muse but I reckon a frenzy that takes him when he fights is no more different from Angron, its just where the latter is controlled more or less in specific fashion, a fighting Curze could be having a seizure and no one would notice. A honey badger and a... what?

 

Edit: Yeah, I remember reading that many seizures result in broken bones specifically because of the forces the misfiring muscles exert.

[Wade Garrett]

And I think the idea that insanity is a superpower is silly.

 

In a mental facility/jail setting where the end goal is to use minimum necessary force to get Mr. or Mrs Whackadoodle in restraints, sure, even four or five big beefy guys are going to have issues with a scrawny little guy biting at their fingers while he soils himself.

 

Make it a street fight where the burly gentlemen are allowed to jump up and down on Mr. Insano until he's sidewalk spam and that's the end of that.

 

Konrad isn't dangerous because he can drool all over himself while his eyes roll back in his head, he's dangerous because while he may lack formal training like Guilliman or Angron got, he's been killing people with

his fingernails and whatever sharp or pointed objects he could fashion since he could walk.

 

He's tough and he's nasty and if you underestimate him he will mess you up (as shown in Savage Weapons) but the smart money says he will struggle against the Primarchs who were formally trained in fighting and killing other people (as shown in Prince of Crows).

[Conn Eremon]

I also think insanity as a superpower is silly.

 

Good thing that is a gross exaggeration and not what is actually being said. :)

[Kol Saresk]

And I think the idea that insanity is a superpower is silly.

 

In a mental facility/jail setting where the end goal is to use minimum necessary force to get Mr. or Mrs Whackadoodle in restraints, sure, even four or five big beefy guys are going to have issues with a scrawny little guy biting at their fingers while he soils himself.

 

Make it a street fight where the burly gentlemen are allowed to jump up and down on Mr. Insano until he's sidewalk spam and that's the end of that.

 

Konrad isn't dangerous because he can drool all over himself while his eyes roll back in his head, he's dangerous because while he may lack formal training like Guilliman or Angron got, he's been killing people with

his fingernails and whatever sharp or pointed objects he could fashion since he could walk.

 

He's tough and he's nasty and if you underestimate him he will mess you up (as shown in Savage Weapons) but the smart money says he will struggle against the Primarchs who were formally trained in fighting and killing other people (as shown in Prince of Crows).

Don't forget that the same Primarch he fought in Prince of Crows sucker-punched him in Savage Weapons. ;)

 

And Cornac actually said that the insanity put Curze in the mindset that a cut to this artery or a stab to that vital organ isn't important. Ignoring that pain would let Curze go further than he should normally have, but it doesn't mean that it'd make him better. It'd still tear him up.

[spu00sed]

And I think the idea that insanity is a superpower is silly.

 

Konrad isn't dangerous because he can drool all over himself while his eyes roll back in his head, he's dangerous because while he may lack formal training like Guilliman or Angron got, he's been killing people with his fingernails and whatever sharp or pointed objects he could fashion since he could walk.

 

Didn't have to be sharp or pointed, he once cleared out an entire hab block of gangers with nothing more than a tea spoon.

 

Edit: spelling

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

And I think the idea that insanity is a superpower is silly.

 

Konrad isn't dangerous because he can drool all over himself while his eyes roll back in his head, he's dangerous because while he may lack formal training like Guilliman or Angron got, he's been killing people with his fingernails and whatever sharp or pointed objects he could fashion since he could walk.

 

Didn't have to be sharp or pointed, he once cleared out an entire hab block of hangers with nothing more than a tea spoon.

:huh:

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Forgotten Empire really illustrates why Kurze is so effective in combat. As well as being a murderous fighter, whilst not infallible, his precognition means he can usually see things just before they happen. Which is handy ;)

[Kol Saresk]

 

Forgotten Empire really illustrates why Kurze is so effective in combat. As well as being a murderous fighter, whilst not infallible, his precognition means he can usually see things just before they happen. Which is handy ;)

Provided it is the correct vision. Which more often than not, it ain't.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Indeed, but it seems to be more accurate the closer in real time it is. So, as I wrote, 'whilst not infallible', it is an advantage in the immediacy of close combat.

[Leif-thunderstand]

With such a skill anyone could kill primarchs... more or less easy, comfy and safe...

[Conn Eremon]

Just because you know a warrior's moves before he makes them, doesn't by itself mean you are quick, strong or skilled enough to do anything about it.

 

I don't care if I know exactly what a Primarch is going to do and precisely how to stop or avoid it, unless I am given enough preparation time to never be there at all, I am dead. People will be talking about my perfect form as I dived under the blade, just too bad I wasn't quick enough to actually avoid its edge. Or about how I executed the perfect block, it is just unfortunate the blow was enough to shatter blade, arm, shoulder and pretty much everything but my left knee.

[Kol Saresk]

Just because you know a warrior's moves before he makes them, doesn't by itself mean you are quick, strong or skilled enough to do anything about it.

I don't care if I know exactly what a Primarch is going to do and precisely how to stop or avoid it, unless I am given enough preparation time to never be there at all, I am dead. People will be talking about my perfect form as I dived under the blade, just too bad I wasn't quick enough to actually avoid its edge. Or about how I executed the perfect block, it is just unfortunate the blow was enough to shatter blade, arm, shoulder and pretty much everything but my left kneespleen.

[Wade Garrett]

Please don't remind me about Dan Abnett suddenly deciding that Curze should suddenly have Nicholas Cage based superpowers that weren't a flaming skull and an awesome motorcycle. Where will this madness end?

 

Perturabo laughed. It was genuinely warm and joyful, which made it all the more terrifying coming from a cold eyed giant in bloodstained armor of burnished iron.

 

"Now you see, brother." He told Rogal Dorn. "There is nothing you can build that I cannot destroy!"

 

The Praetorian growled like a wet leopard. Not like a tiger, jaguar, or puma, but a leopard. One that was covered in moisture.

 

"You forgot one thing, traitor." Dorn wet leopard replied. "My laser eyes!"

 

"What? Rogal, you don't have laser eyes. You've never had laser eyes. Not in the Index Astartes articles, six editions of Codexes, or any novels or short stories."

 

"Well, then, you Olympian whoreson, we will use this science and logic you like so much to do an experiment. If I don't have laser eyes, I won't be able to blast you off these walls!" Dorn wet leopard said.

 

"That is not how science w..."

 

The shimmering smokey iridescent beams from Dorn's eyes hit Perturabo in the chest mid sentence, knocking him off the wall and into a muddy trench with concussive force.

 

"I LOVE SCIENCE!" Dorn wet leopard shouted, as he jumped down to finish the Iron Lord off.

 

-excerpt from "Terra Besieged" by Dan Abnett

[DuskRaider]

Curze's depiction in Unremembered Empire is exactly how he should be. Seems people get all bent out of shape when he's not getting smacked around like in all the other books. A Primarch in his element is much deadlier than a Primarch out of it.

[Wade Garrett]

Curze has only been smacked around in one novella, "Prince of Crows". His showings in "Savage Weapons" and "The First Heretic" were about as unsmackable as you can get.

 

At least until "Unremembered Empire", where SuperKonrad can beat up Roboute and the Lion at the same time and headbutt his way out of the Warp for no adequately explained reason.

 

Maybe he spent the whole trip to Maccrage training in 100X Earth gravity.

[Kol Saresk]

I think you need to read that again if you think there was no reason. It's also fair to point out that he didn't beat up Guilliman and the Lion. He was stalling them and spent most of the fight trying to dodge blows. An attempt that was unsuccessful on a few occasions.

[Conn Eremon]

Stalling and dodging only?

 

Damn it. Now I got Konrad Curze and Jackie Chan connected in my head.

 

It all makes sense now. All those incidents on Macragge? They were at construction zones.

 

 

 

The resounding hammer blow lifted the Primarch and cast him aside like a broken toy. Curze picked himself up from the tumble of body parts that were once his sons, now massacred, as heavy footsteps approached.

 

"Brother. This charade of a battle is over. You are lost. Do you submit or do you die?"

 

Curze spat blood upon the ground and chuckled a wet leopard growl, staggering to his feet as the Angel stopped ten feet short of him.

 

"Sanguinius, Sanguinius, Sssanguiniussss," Konrad muttered as his eyes scanned the red horde surrounding him. "How can I have lost when I have not yet begun to fight?"

 

Sanguinius frowned and was about to answer when one of his men to interrupted him and drew his attention skyward.

 

"INCOMNG!"

 

The drop pod impacted nearly atop them, the kicked up dust and sand obscuring their sight, though the bat-winged skull was clear to see upon its side. Hands lowered from their eyes and bolters snapped upwards, pointing at the vessel as its ramps lowered.

 

There was a pause of hesitation as the Blood Angels stared into the dark depths before an object teetered into view and toppled down the ramp.

 

"The hell," a nearby Captain muttered darkly. "Is that a ladder?"

 

The Night Haunter smiled.

 

 

[Kol Saresk]

I don't recall saying "stalling and dodging only". Pretty sure I said "He was stalling them and spent most of the fight trying to dodge blows. An attempt that was unsuccessful on a few occasions."