Space Wolfs Vs Primarchs

[Conn Eremon]

Because when you hear somebody sent the ravens, everyone's first reaction is "Oh good, mail."

[Hyaenidae]

This thread is not amusing. No Astartes from any Legion could take on a Primarch from any Legion, short of vast, vast numbers.

 

Alexis Polux was ready to sacrifice more than a quarter of the entire Imperial Fists Legion to kill Perturabo at Phall. That's what it would have taken. The devestation of an entire Legion, and the weakening of Terra's defenses, to kill one Demi-God.

 

Magnus was melting wolf-brains a dozen at a time on Prospero, Leman gutting Thousand Sons like stuck pigs on the opposite.

 

Angron lifted a bloody Warhound Titan off of his brother Lorgar. A damned Titan.

 

Guilliman made Word Bearers, true believers and fanatics, run in sheer terror over Calth.

 

Corax went through the possessed elite of the Serrated Sons like wet paper on Isstvan.

 

Even Curze, a superb murderer and an arguably weak fighter, was buzzsawing through the Dark Angels on their own bloody flagship.

 

 

I can say, "I am the king of a new nation, so bow", but it means nothing until someone accepts it as truth. Gives it power, if you will. The same goes for the Wolves. They can yap about being the executioner Legion, but in truth, they are Astartes, nothing more. Still dangerous, yes. Primarch-slayers? Hell no. Get off your high horse.

[The Acid Dog]

@Brazentooth
And why should a war with the Wolves in particular be more terrible to contemplate than one with, say, the Iron Hands or Raven Guard?

Because, as I said, they've broken at least one Legion, and possibly more than one. They have a reputation as killers of Astartes.

Also, what Cormac said.

[Scribe]

PREACH IT HEATHENS!

[Hyaenidae]

@Brazentooth

And why should a war with the Wolves in particular be more terrible to contemplate than one with, say, the Iron Hands or Raven Guard?

Because, as I said, they've broken at least one Legion, and possibly more than one. They have a reputation as killers of Astartes.

Also, what Cormac said.

At what cost? How many Wolves died on Prospero? What's left of their Legion after that devastating war? With their stubborn pride blinding them, how much did they really help the Imperium of Man in it's darkest time? They broke themselves, and turned a loyal Primarch into an enemy that still haunts them 10,000 years later.

I hope, with all my heart, that the next Wolves book focuses on them being outmaneuvered in the field of war. Broken, bloodied, hobbled, toothless; left to sit out the war and watch Terra burn from the sidelines. Humility needs to be brought back into the Wolf line, because at this point, the sheer arrogance is unbecoming of what was once a noble breed.

[Kol Saresk]

How is dying fighting an enemy you have barely any chance of winning against honorable?

 

You cant feel the laudes and honor when your dead.

 

 

No wonder why Malcador chose the wolves....

A good fight is a good fight. As long as you get to fight it, you're not going to care if you win or lose. Besides, the only way a warrior can get into Elysium Valhalla Wherever-it-is-the-Wolves-think-they-go is if you die a warrior's death. That means dying battle, and dying in a good fight. Even if the fight consists of you charging a Primarch only to have your head backhanded across the battlefield.

[Wade Garrett]

Because, as I said, they've broken at least one Legion, and possibly more than one. They have a reputation as killers of Astartes.

 

This post contains original research that has yet to be verified and may be challenged.

 

Sure, the Wolves smashed the Thousand Sons. A Legion whose own Primarch opened their defenses to Russ's horde and did not take to the field until his sons were driven to their last redoubt.

 

A Legion which was still loyal to the Emperor and whose sin was trying to warn him of the Warmaster's treachery.

 

I'd say the Dark Angels thrashing a Legion that was actively fighting back is a far better benchmark for who the REAL Astartes that kill Astartes are than the VI blundering to victory over an enemy that had shackled and blindfolded itself.

[Hyaenidae]

...And a Legion that, even late to the field, bled the Wolves white.

[Wade Garrett]

For that matter, Khârn broke TWO Legions all by himself at Skallathrax.

[The Acid Dog]

At what cost? How many Wolves died on Prospero? What's left of their Legion after that devastating war? With their stubborn pride blinding them, how much did they really help the Imperium of Man in it's darkest time? They broke themselves, and turned a loyal Primarch into an enemy that still haunts them 10,000 years later.

 

Simply put, we don't know how many Wolves died out of how many.  But we do know that they were considered enough of a threat that either Horus or the Alpha Legion themselves felt the need to delay them further (referencing Dorn's call to return to Terra, and the White Scars' decision to let the Wolves face the Alpha Legion alone.) 

 

 

For that matter, Khârn broke TWO Legions all by himself at Skallathrax.

 

More like the remainders of two Legions, still licking their wounds after the Heresy, broke each other at Khârn's instigation at Skallathrax.

[Hyaenidae]

I'm ignoring Scouring era stuff intentionally.

 

My personal benchmark would be Corswain planting his sword in Curze's spine. That is a superhuman feat, and one that should have emblazoned his name as a legend. Even then, though, he got lucky. Had Curze not have been going through one of his 'episodes' and been totally focused on strangling the life out of his brother, the Haunter of Nostramo would have made a very pretty decoration out of Corswain's skin.

[Demus Ragnok]

Magnus held back.

 

The Wolves had the Emperors' elite ANTI-PSYKER troops along for the ride. And some Custodes.

 

And Magnus held back.

 

Head to head any two Astartes Legions are going to massacre one another to the man. The HH series has shown that time and again.

[Hyaenidae]

 

At what cost? How many Wolves died on Prospero? What's left of their Legion after that devastating war? With their stubborn pride blinding them, how much did they really help the Imperium of Man in it's darkest time? They broke themselves, and turned a loyal Primarch into an enemy that still haunts them 10,000 years later.

 

Simply put, we don't know how many Wolves died out of how many.  But we do know that they were considered enough of a threat that either Horus or the Alpha Legion themselves felt the need to delay them further (referencing Dorn's call to return to Terra, and the White Scars' decision to let the Wolves face the Alpha Legion alone.) 

 

Yes. The Alpha Legion, who is at war with everyone, including themselves, and is spread across the known Imperium, held back the Wolves in their entirety.

 

Must have been a lot.

[Conn Eremon]

Humility needs to be brought back into the Wolf line, because at this point, the sheer arrogance is unbecoming of what was once a noble breed.

This is the only thing I disagree with of yours Heathens. For one thing, arrogance is rather becoming of a Space Marine Legion. For another, the thing that pushes the Wolves over the edge is not the Wolves themselves, but an inevitable outcome of a system that is about rooting for your own team. Humbling them in the fluff for the purpose of humbling the fans would only have an adverse effect, and honestly, when is taking the extreme stance in opposition of another extreme stance ever a good thing? At that point, what is the difference between you and them?

 

I might think the Raiders fans are touched in the head because their instinctive response to winning or losing is to riot, but what purpose would sidelining the team for the postseason have in affecting that? Why should the team receive the blame or suffer their punishment?

[Wade Garrett]

Besides Corswain and Polux, Heresy era Kor Phaeron space magic blasted Guilliman seven ways to Sunday, and Lorgar was close to getting his ticket punched by Lhorke and the Librarius.

 

Of course, Lorgar was also exhausted from unleashing a sector spanning hellstorm and a brisk round of fisticuffs with Rob.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

@Brazentooth

And why should a war with the Wolves in particular be more terrible to contemplate than one with, say, the Iron Hands or Raven Guard?

Because, as I said, they've broken at least one Legion, and possibly more than one. They have a reputation as killers of Astartes.

Also, what Cormac said.

Allegedly. There is fluff both suggesting they're not 'Executioners' as well as suggesting they are.

Anway, on the face of it the wolves are a small legion. They outnumbered the kSons. Against any other Legion, they themselves would be outnumbered.

Take for example, the X as they have already been mentioned by Wade.

The Iron Hands numbered in excess 113,000, and although I don't beleive there is an exact figure for the wolves, they are a smaller legion - the IHs are considered moderate in size. However, the X are supposed to be comparable to larger Legions in terms of force due to their massive armoured compliment. This is a Legion almost as much a tank force as an infantry one. Its veterans are often as much machine as man, and their armour is especially well maintained/forged - both add to each Marine's endurance. Plus they get extra special weaponry because they're really pally with the Mechanicum.

Also, Ferrus may have had a tactically unsound demise, but recent fluff suggests he was a pretty good general. He is described as having lead his younger brothers to war, with the Emperor investing him with overall command of multiple Legions. He isn't the Lion or Guilliman, but he doesn't have to be - he isn't a brilliant strategist. He's fantastic at the brutal calculus of war. X sacrificed astartes here to give Y marines here Z advantage. Precision application of the perfect quantity of force.

Im not saying that the Iron Hands are more powerful than the Wolves, but the Wolves certainly aren't more of a threat than any Legion much larger than themselves. Lets face it, if the Wolves were super special amongst other Astartes, the Emperor would have made all space marines that way.

[Demus Ragnok]

Corax went through the possessed elite of the Serrated Sons like wet paper on Isstvan.

 

I really enjoyed that scene. And the dialogue between Lorgar and Kor Phaeron as they saw it happening.

[Kais Klip]

I don't understand why the whoremongering for glory amongst the Astartes is even in question; an Astartes can and will charge a Primarch if there is limited recourse left; the betrayed world eaters charged Angron "dreaming of glory", and the examples Heathens gave above go hand in hand with that; if an Astartes charges a primarch, he charges for glory first, and the Imperium/Warmaster second.

 

Now the extent to which that is true, I would say varies between the legions almost as much as it varies inside them. As long as we are speaking of the average, line Astartes here, I am willing to bet that any of the legions would take the chance, any chance, to kill a primarch. The question I would be more concerned about is what they would be willing to risk. But their lives? Without a doubt. A victory? Now that's where I think the differences would come in.

 

And to the wolves being in a league above the other legions in terms of killing a primarch, or perhaps murdering a legion, I cry nonsence (not that anyone has asserted that persistently). A different method of prosecuting it? Sure. Perhaps more efficiently on some terms than others? Yeah. But given infinite time and infinite resources, the Emperor might as well get the legions to draw straws (:D) for all the difference in outcome.

 

But making those assumptions would be idealistic and not practical in any way. Personaly? I think the wolves have been appointed the executioner status, falsely or not, because they can't do anything more grander, due to their numbers or otherwise. I don't see any glory or pride to be taken in the executioner status, sure when I first read it I thought it was awesome, but after considering it? An executioner, guys, not the heroic knight that disarms and subdues the criminal, not the friend that betrays him, nor the one that runs him down on the fastest horse. But a fat guy, swinging an axe at a man that's already dead.

[Wade Garrett]

Regarding the Wolves as Executioners, I have no problem if the VI believe that, or even if Russ does.

 

But remember, many members of the VIII Legion (Sahaal, Talos, Mercutian) believed the Emperor created them to committ atrocities that would give a grave robber dry heaves and Adolph Eichmann nightmares.

 

Curze himself believed that (except for those moments when he believed he was vengeance, he was the night, HE! WAS! BA-er, NIGHT HAUNTER!).

 

That doesn't make them right.

[Hyaenidae]

 

Humility needs to be brought back into the Wolf line, because at this point, the sheer arrogance is unbecoming of what was once a noble breed.

This is the only thing I disagree with of yours Heathens. For one thing, arrogance is rather becoming of a Space Marine Legion. For another, the thing that pushes the Wolves over the edge is not the Wolves themselves, but an inevitable outcome of a system that is about rooting for your own team. Humbling them in the fluff for the purpose of humbling the fans would only have an adverse effect, and honestly, when is taking the extreme stance in opposition of another extreme stance ever a good thing? At that point, what is the difference between you and them?

 

I might think the Raiders fans are touched in the head because their instinctive response to winning or losing is to riot, but what purpose would sidelining the team for the postseason have in affecting that? Why should the team receive the blame or suffer their punishment?

 

I'm a Lions fan. 'Nuff said.

 

Listen, I like the Wolves of Fenris. I really do. I think their theme is cool, and I love their culture. I'm willing to admit that arrogance is a strength and a fault of every Legion. It's just that, hearing over and over again that "We are indestructible because Dan Abnett said we were executioners of Legions!" has gotten a touch old. Arrogance is a part of Legionary life. Overwhelming arrogance, like actually beliving a squad of Wolves could actually take any Primarch alone, makes my eyelid twitch.

 

I'm a huge fan of the Iron Warriors. I didn't lose my sanity when i read the last lines about the Battle of Phall, and how close the Fists came to killing my liege, without Primarch backup. I cannot fathom why one throwaway line in the Wolves book turned into madness.

[The Acid Dog]

 

*snip*

 

Im not saying that the Iron Hands are more powerful than the Wolves, but the Wolves certainly aren't more of a threat than any Legion much larger than themselves. Lets face it, if the Wolves were super special amongst other Astartes, the Emperor would have made all space marines that way.

 

Would he have?  I don't see any reason to believe he would have/could have/should have done anything we readers claim.

 

 

Listen, I like the Wolves of Fenris. I really do. I think their theme is cool, and I love their culture. I'm willing to admit that arrogance is a strength and a fault of every Legion. It's just that, hearing over and over again that "We are indestructible because Dan Abnett said we were executioners of Legions!" has gotten a touch old. Arrogance is a part of Legionary life. Overwhelming arrogance, like actually beliving a squad of Wolves could actually take any Primarch alone, makes my eyelid twitch.

 

Just to make my position absolutely clear, I do not believe a pack of Wolves could take on a Primarch alone, although they have done some impressive stuff in small numbers, considering their opponent.  I think more along the lines of ADB's "mineshaft canary" and my own "Remember what we're for.  Remember that we're watching."

[Kais Klip]

I have to back up Brazentooth on that one, Heathens, and while I do share your frustration when it comes to the rest of the community, the guys here (both on he wolf side and without) have subdued that kind of chatter into a something no more guilty than the fans of any other legions, at least compared to the beginning of the year. Although... the infiltration shown in Deliverance Lost was perfectly justifiable for a legion of such competence *runs away*

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

 

*snip*

 

Im not saying that the Iron Hands are more powerful than the Wolves, but the Wolves certainly aren't more of a threat than any Legion much larger than themselves. Lets face it, if the Wolves were super special amongst other Astartes, the Emperor would have made all space marines that way.

 

Would he have?  I don't see any reason to believe he would have/could have/should have done anything we readers claim. 

 

There are 18 Legions. Each is given equal resources. Each Primarch (save the Warmaster) is given equal authority.

 

If the Wolves are the bestest space marines ever, why aren't they his elites? Why doesn't the Emperor grant them extra power, extra equipment, because they can so evidently wipe the floor with all other Legions?

 

It is illogical to produce more inferior units than superior units if they require equal resources to produce/maintain - which all space marines seem to.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

Humility needs to be brought back into the Wolf line, because at this point, the sheer arrogance is unbecoming of what was once a noble breed.

This is the only thing I disagree with of yours Heathens. For one thing, arrogance is rather becoming of a Space Marine Legion. For another, the thing that pushes the Wolves over the edge is not the Wolves themselves, but an inevitable outcome of a system that is about rooting for your own team. Humbling them in the fluff for the purpose of humbling the fans would only have an adverse effect, and honestly, when is taking the extreme stance in opposition of another extreme stance ever a good thing? At that point, what is the difference between you and them?

 

I might think the Raiders fans are touched in the head because their instinctive response to winning or losing is to riot, but what purpose would sidelining the team for the postseason have in affecting that? Why should the team receive the blame or suffer their punishment?

I'm a Lions fan. 'Nuff said.

 

Listen, I like the Wolves of Fenris. I really do. I think their theme is cool, and I love their culture. I'm willing to admit that arrogance is a strength and a fault of every Legion. It's just that, hearing over and over again that "We are indestructible because Dan Abnett said we were executioners of Legions!" has gotten a touch old. Arrogance is a part of Legionary life. Overwhelming arrogance, like actually beliving a squad of Wolves could actually take any Primarch alone, makes my eyelid twitch.

 

I'm a huge fan of the Iron Warriors. I didn't lose my sanity when i read the last lines about the Battle of Phall, and how close the Fists came to killing my liege, without Primarch backup. I cannot fathom why one throwaway line in the Wolves book turned into madness.

You didn't, but some might have. If there were as many fans of the Iron Warriors as there are of the Wolves (from all accounts, they got one of, if not the, biggest fanbase), then those that did might be equal as those among the Wolves. But even if that was the case, I wouldn't blame the Legion for it. Because all it is is people taking something they like or hate and running to the extremes with it. Has nothing to do with the Legion itself.

 

I commiserate with you on the subject of those certain fans. But you lose my vote if you take it out on anyone but those fans.

[The Acid Dog]

 

 

 

*snip*

 

Im not saying that the Iron Hands are more powerful than the Wolves, but the Wolves certainly aren't more of a threat than any Legion much larger than themselves. Lets face it, if the Wolves were super special amongst other Astartes, the Emperor would have made all space marines that way.

 

Would he have?  I don't see any reason to believe he would have/could have/should have done anything we readers claim. 

 

There are 18 Legions. Each is given equal resources. Each Primarch (save the Warmaster) is given equal authority.

 

If the Wolves are the bestest space marines ever, why aren't they his elites? Why doesn't the Emperor grant them extra power, extra equipment, because they can so evidently wipe the floor with all other Legions?

 

It is illogical to produce more inferior units than superior units if they require equal resources to produce/maintain - which all space marines seem to.

 

I'm going to have to reference the "wyrd" theory, here.  Each Primarch, and each Legion, has a purpose that they are built for.  One of Magnus' uses was that he was to take the Golden Throne and guide humanity through the Astronomican.  Therefore, he and his legion lean toward all things psychic.  While we don't know what every primarch's purpose was, the theory, I think, is sound given the great deal of difference between them all.