Space Wolfs Vs Primarchs

[Kais Klip]

 

 

 

 

*snip*

 

Im not saying that the Iron Hands are more powerful than the Wolves, but the Wolves certainly aren't more of a threat than any Legion much larger than themselves. Lets face it, if the Wolves were super special amongst other Astartes, the Emperor would have made all space marines that way.

 

Would he have?  I don't see any reason to believe he would have/could have/should have done anything we readers claim. 

 

There are 18 Legions. Each is given equal resources. Each Primarch (save the Warmaster) is given equal authority.

 

If the Wolves are the bestest space marines ever, why aren't they his elites? Why doesn't the Emperor grant them extra power, extra equipment, because they can so evidently wipe the floor with all other Legions?

 

It is illogical to produce more inferior units than superior units if they require equal resources to produce/maintain - which all space marines seem to.

On that point I have to pipe up again, and it's why I worded my post so carefully:

 

To me, once you account the Wolves' position plus or minus, what, 50 years around the Heresy, them and the Salamanders make the most sense for the title of "Executioner-in-spirit-but-more-a-threat-in-reality". Where I think the BL team floundered slightly, if they even did, is not including the Wolves as one of the specialist legions mentioned in Massacre, that is alongside the salamanders, the night lords and alpha legion to protect, enforce and observe respectively. Now that I think about it, the salamanders and wolves clash in their purpose open to them, both being tiny legions with a preference for irregular ops. The question is whether the wolves started with that preference, and if it's simply a result of them being reduced to such a small number. Like the Raven Guard post Istvaan.

[Daddywarcrimes]

 

 

 

*snip*

 

Im not saying that the Iron Hands are more powerful than the Wolves, but the Wolves certainly aren't more of a threat than any Legion much larger than themselves. Lets face it, if the Wolves were super special amongst other Astartes, the Emperor would have made all space marines that way.

 

Would he have?  I don't see any reason to believe he would have/could have/should have done anything we readers claim. 

 

There are 18 Legions. Each is given equal resources. Each Primarch (save the Warmaster) is given equal authority.

 

If the Wolves are the bestest space marines ever, why aren't they his elites? Why doesn't the Emperor grant them extra power, extra equipment, because they can so evidently wipe the floor with all other Legions?

 

It is illogical to produce more inferior units than superior units if they require equal resources to produce/maintain - which all space marines seem to.

 

I don't think anyone with a grasp on reality is claiming Russ's legion produces Astartes that are "better" than any other.  Instead, the Astartes of the VIth are belligerent jerks with zero loyalty to anyone outside the legion except the Emperor (who they really only serve because Russ does).  While it does mean Big E has a legion willing to be thrown at another legion if he has to, it also means he's got a legion that the others pretty much can't stand dealing with.  It seems more like the Emperor recognized this horrific character flaw in Russ and found a way to make use of it.

 

Most of the legions have bonds of friendship and loyalty with members of at least a few other legions.  For most of the Great Crusade, the bonds between the captains of various legions are a massive asset to the campaign, but once Horus turns they become a liability that the loyalists have to struggle to set aside in other to fight effectively.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

 

*snip*

 

Im not saying that the Iron Hands are more powerful than the Wolves, but the Wolves certainly aren't more of a threat than any Legion much larger than themselves. Lets face it, if the Wolves were super special amongst other Astartes, the Emperor would have made all space marines that way.

Would he have? I don't see any reason to believe he would have/could have/should have done anything we readers claim.

There are 18 Legions. Each is given equal resources. Each Primarch (save the Warmaster) is given equal authority.

 

If the Wolves are the bestest space marines ever, why aren't they his elites? Why doesn't the Emperor grant them extra power, extra equipment, because they can so evidently wipe the floor with all other Legions?

 

It is illogical to produce more inferior units than superior units if they require equal resources to produce/maintain - which all space marines seem to.

Trust me, I agree, but the logic falls flat when you consider what it takes to be true.

 

If the Wolves are better (if, IF!), and are meant as a counter to the other Legions then why would he make them all equal to the Wolves?

 

If you have a group of 18 men who might all betray you, except for one, and you give that one a gun for the purpose of stopping any betrayal, why would you then arm the other 17?

 

To put it in in-game terms, if your regiment needs a Commissar in case of unruly officers, why would you raise all of your officers as Commissars?

 

You are right, if the Wolves are just another Legion. But saying that if they were more than that, then wouldn't the rest be too, doesn't make sense.

[Wade Garrett]

Daddywarcrimes, that's a bit much, I think. After all, Robby G seemed to think Russ and the Wolves comboed well with his XIII, which I don't think would be the case if they were all puffed up chuckleheads who ignored every authority save Leman and the Emperor.

[depthcharge12]

If you want a legion that it has been confirmed in multiple different places and at different periods that fights astartes regularly, then the World Eaters are your legion.

 

 

Now dont knee jerk, as it might seem I am partial to them, but in fact they do have their faults.

 

 

However, they fight eachtother in the fighting pits and even to the death. When they mustered at Bodt, they fought eachother to the death to prove themselves to Angron.

 

 

The world eaters fought and killed the wolves quite handly at the Night of the Wolf. To get into the elite of the World Eaters you must kill a superior astartes to gain your position, and even hold it.

 

 

 

So to say the Wolves killed astartes before and are capable of doing it again quite well is silly. At least compared to the World Eaters who kill astartes regularly and have MUCH GREATER NUMBERS than the wolves, which would make sense to distribute them if they had been loyal.

 

 

 

I admired the wolves a long time ago and enjoyed their rivalry with the Dark Angels, at least until they got on their high horses THUNDERWOLVES

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

 

 

 

*snip*

 

Im not saying that the Iron Hands are more powerful than the Wolves, but the Wolves certainly aren't more of a threat than any Legion much larger than themselves. Lets face it, if the Wolves were super special amongst other Astartes, the Emperor would have made all space marines that way.

 

Would he have?  I don't see any reason to believe he would have/could have/should have done anything we readers claim. 

 

There are 18 Legions. Each is given equal resources. Each Primarch (save the Warmaster) is given equal authority.

 

If the Wolves are the bestest space marines ever, why aren't they his elites? Why doesn't the Emperor grant them extra power, extra equipment, because they can so evidently wipe the floor with all other Legions?

 

It is illogical to produce more inferior units than superior units if they require equal resources to produce/maintain - which all space marines seem to.

 

I'm going to have to reference the "wyrd" theory, here.  Each Primarch, and each Legion, has a purpose that they are built for.  One of Magnus' uses was that he was to take the Golden Throne and guide humanity through the Astronomican.  Therefore, he and his legion lean toward all things psychic.  While we don't know what every primarch's purpose was, the theory, I think, is sound given the great deal of difference between them all.

 

And I agree with the theory. However, that doesn't mean that any one Legion is more powerful than any of the others. Diversity doesn't necessarily induce a hierachy. I personally beleive all Legions were more or less of equal power - of course in a combat situation, the specifics of the circumstance have a huge effect on the outcome, so a hypothetical VS. situation is pointless.

 

But the wolves don't have ANY advantage over other Astartes on an indiviual basis referenced so far. They aren't supposed to have better reflexes, or be stronger. And yet a Legion consisting of equally capable warriors as the other Astartes that is smaller in size than other Legions is supposed to be in place to kill them off if necessary. Either the 'Executioner' theory is wrong, or the Emperor messed up his arithmetic, bad.

[Hyaenidae]

You didn't, but some might have. If there were as many fans of the Iron Warriors as there are of the Wolves (from all accounts, they got one of, if not the, biggest fanbase), then those that did might be equal as those among the Wolves. But even if that was the case, I wouldn't blame the Legion for it. Because all it is is people taking something they like or hate and running to the extremes with it. Has nothing to do with the Legion itself.

 

I commiserate with you on the subject of those certain fans. But you lose my vote if you take it out on anyone but those fans.

 

Fair enough, though I'm still of the opinion that the Wolves need a few more losses under their belt. The true nature and strength of an individual or group cannot be seen properly, until they are faced with loss, not victory.

 

I want to see the Wolves true heart bared. Not the face they wear in victory.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, everything points to the War Hounds being the original "Emperor's Legion". They were directly controlled by him. He kept them from the front lines and even during the Unification of the Sol System, allowed them to become abnormally large. They were the ones he sent after a group of rogue Thunder Warriors that incited an entire colony of 3,000,000 million souls into rebellion.

 

He only stopped when Angron was found and He realized the Red Angel could not be controlled and neither could the War Hounds anymore.

 

So actually, it points to the Wolves being the second choice of a "personal" Legion, not the original choice.

 

There is also the fact that not even the fellow Primarchs know if the Executioner theme was something the Wolves just took up, or if it was something that the Emperor actually did. So far, all we've seen of the Wolves that makes them so dangerous is that they're loyal to a fault. I wouldn't be surprised if when Horus tricked Russ, part of what he said was "The Emperor wills it", or something to that effect.

 

All of this is speculation(key word here since everything said so far is pretty much speculation) based on facts printed in Forgeworld's Betrayal and Black Library's Betrayer and Prospero Burns.

[Wade Garrett]

To put it in in-game terms, if your regiment needs a commissar in case of unruly officers, why would you raise all of your officers as Commissars?

 

So does this make Angron and the XII a Death World regiment, and Ghenna their invocation of the "Oops, Sorry Sir!" rule?

[Kais Klip]

The point you guys are debating over is one I prattle on about trying to refute;

 

Being the Executioner legion does not mean they are superior to any other legion, nor does it imply they are, as I mentioned in my analogy.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

You didn't, but some might have. If there were as many fans of the Iron Warriors as there are of the Wolves (from all accounts, they got one of, if not the, biggest fanbase), then those that did might be equal as those among the Wolves. But even if that was the case, I wouldn't blame the Legion for it. Because all it is is people taking something they like or hate and running to the extremes with it. Has nothing to do with the Legion itself.

 

I commiserate with you on the subject of those certain fans. But you lose my vote if you take it out on anyone but those fans.

Fair enough, though I'm still of the opinion that the Wolves need a few more losses under their belt. The true nature and strength of an individual or group cannot be seen properly, until they are faced with loss, not victory.

 

I want to see the Wolves true heart bared. Not the face they wear in victory.

That is definitely true, and certainly something I would like as well. Just, not because of the fans. Do it for the story, to make it better, lend it depth, never because of those fans.

[Conn Eremon]

Actually, everything points to the War Hounds being the original "Emperor's Legion". They were directly controlled by him. He kept them from the front lines and even during the Unification of the Sol System, allowed them to become abnormally large. They were the ones he sent after a group of rogue Thunder Warriors that incited an entire colony of 3,000,000 million souls into rebellion.

 

He only stopped when Angron was found and He realized the Red Angel could not be controlled and neither could the War Hounds anymore.

 

So actually, it points to the Wolves being the second choice of a "personal" Legion, not the original choice.

 

There is also the fact that not even the fellow Primarchs know if the Executioner theme was something the Wolves just took up, or if it was something that the Emperor actually did. So far, all we've seen of the Wolves that makes them so dangerous is that they're loyal to a fault. I wouldn't be surprised if when Horus tricked Russ, part of what he said was "The Emperor wills it", or something to that effect.

 

All of this is speculation(key word here since everything said so far is pretty much speculation) based on facts printed in Forgeworld's Betrayal and Black Library's Betrayer and Prospero Burns.

Certainly possible, though the sense I got of the Cerberus incident was that the War Hounds were simply the only ones available. The other Legions were either busy outside of Sol already or still in development. Less a 'this is your true purpose' and more 'Eh, any tool in the shed.' And then he acted a little surprised the tool worked so well.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Actually, everything points to the War Hounds being the original "Emperor's Legion". They were directly controlled by him. He kept them from the front lines and even during the Unification of the Sol System, allowed them to become abnormally large. They were the ones he sent after a group of rogue Thunder Warriors that incited an entire colony of 3,000,000 million souls into rebellion.

 

He only stopped when Angron was found and He realized the Red Angel could not be controlled and neither could the War Hounds anymore.

 

So actually, it points to the Wolves being the second choice of a "personal" Legion, not the original choice.

 

There is also the fact that not even the fellow Primarchs know if the Executioner theme was something the Wolves just took up, or if it was something that the Emperor actually did. So far, all we've seen of the Wolves that makes them so dangerous is that they're loyal to a fault. I wouldn't be surprised if when Horus tricked Russ, part of what he said was "The Emperor wills it", or something to that effect.

 

All of this is speculation(key word here since everything said so far is pretty much speculation) based on facts printed in Forgeworld's Betrayal and Black Library's Betrayer and Prospero Burns.

Certainly possible, though the sense I got of the Cerberus incident was that the War Hounds were simply the only ones available. The other Legions were either busy outside of Sol already or still in development. Less a 'this is your true purpose' and more 'Eh, any tool in the shed.' And then he acted a little surprised the tool worked so well.

 

 

Or its possible that the War Hounds were just the only ones with the numbers he thought could deal with 3,000,000 insurrectionists and who knows how many Thunder Warriors. I mean, when we see one of the Night Lords famous battles, there were only a couple hundred because the rest were somewhere else. Hence why they dumped the city in the crevasse rather than slaughter everyone in it.

[The Acid Dog]

 

 

 

You didn't, but some might have. If there were as many fans of the Iron Warriors as there are of the Wolves (from all accounts, they got one of, if not the, biggest fanbase), then those that did might be equal as those among the Wolves. But even if that was the case, I wouldn't blame the Legion for it. Because all it is is people taking something they like or hate and running to the extremes with it. Has nothing to do with the Legion itself.

 

I commiserate with you on the subject of those certain fans. But you lose my vote if you take it out on anyone but those fans.

Fair enough, though I'm still of the opinion that the Wolves need a few more losses under their belt. The true nature and strength of an individual or group cannot be seen properly, until they are faced with loss, not victory.

 

I want to see the Wolves true heart bared. Not the face they wear in victory.

That is definitely true, and certainly something I would like as well. Just, not because of the fans. Do it for the story, to make it better, lend it depth, never because of those fans.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing some defeats for the sake of the story, either.  Heck, I'll take just about anything for the sake of the story!

 

And I agree with the theory. However, that doesn't mean that any one Legion is more powerful than any of the others. Diversity doesn't necessarily induce a hierachy. I personally beleive all Legions were more or less of equal power - of course in a combat situation, the specifics of the circumstance have a huge effect on the outcome, so a hypothetical VS. situation is pointless.

 

But the wolves don't have ANY advantage over other Astartes on an indiviual basis referenced so far. They aren't supposed to have better reflexes, or be stronger. And yet a Legion consisting of equally capable warriors as the other Astartes that is smaller in size than other Legions is supposed to be in place to kill them off if necessary. Either the 'Executioner' theory is wrong, or the Emperor messed up his arithmetic, bad.

 

The reason I brought up the theory was to point out why "X Legion is better than the others" is a useless blanket statement that I'm not trying to make.  The proper response to it is "Better at what?"  If Primarchs are purpose-built, then it stands to reason that they are better at what they're built for than the other primarchs.  Overall-hierarchy, no, but hierarchy in terms of certain tasks, yes.

 

As for exactly why the Wolves would be better at killing Astartes than the other Legions, I think an argument can be made using Battle of the Fang and its examples of what individual Wolves are capable of, but aside from that there's more to it than sheer physical prowess.  Will they get off without a scratch fighting another Legion?  Of course not!  They're fighting Astartes, after all.  But they've done it before, and that's something that needs to be taken into account.

[Daddywarcrimes]

 

You didn't, but some might have. If there were as many fans of the Iron Warriors as there are of the Wolves (from all accounts, they got one of, if not the, biggest fanbase), then those that did might be equal as those among the Wolves. But even if that was the case, I wouldn't blame the Legion for it. Because all it is is people taking something they like or hate and running to the extremes with it. Has nothing to do with the Legion itself.

 

I commiserate with you on the subject of those certain fans. But you lose my vote if you take it out on anyone but those fans.

 

Fair enough, though I'm still of the opinion that the Wolves need a few more losses under their belt. The true nature and strength of an individual or group cannot be seen properly, until they are faced with loss, not victory.

 

I want to see the Wolves true heart bared. Not the face they wear in victory.

 

That's what happens in Scars.  Russ comes to terms with he and his legion getting ripped to shreds

 

Daddywarcrimes, that's a bit much, I think. After all, Robby G seemed to think Russ and the Wolves comboed well with his XIII, which I don't think would be the case if they were all puffed up chuckleheads who ignored every authority save Leman and the Emperor.

 

 

It is an extreme perspective, but I don't think it's that far off.  Roboute recognizes that their skills compliment those of his own warriors, but I don't recall anywhere outside of Battle for the Abyss that includes someone forming a deep and lasting friendship with one of the Wolves.  Even the relationship between Wyrdmake and Ahriman is a plot to spy on the Thousand Sons as part of the quest to prove that they're sorcerors striking dark bargains with the vile powers of the warp in exchange for power.

 

Guilleman gets along with Bludbrudder and his warriors but is still reasonably sure that if they decide he's turned they'll raise their axes at him.  On the other hand, he was shocked when the Dark Angel pods began raining down.

[Wade Garrett]

Battle of the Fang?

 

How about Isstvan 3, where outnumbered and outgunned loyalists of the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters stood off THREE Primarchs, their Legions, and Titans?

 

If you want to point to instances in the fluff of Wolves being awesome I'm confident we can dig up similar stuff for every Legion, Chapter, and Warband out there. We've got invisible ninja Raven Guards, Night Lords that headbutt other Astartes to death, World Eaters killing fully armored Custodians with their bare hands while wearing nothing but loincloths....

[Hyaenidae]

 

Fair enough, though I'm still of the opinion that the Wolves need a few more losses under their belt. The true nature and strength of an individual or group cannot be seen properly, until they are faced with loss, not victory.

 

I want to see the Wolves true heart bared. Not the face they wear in victory.

 

That's what happens in Scars.  Russ comes to terms with he and his legion getting ripped to shreds

 

And as soon as Black Library gets off this 'little bites of the story at a time' gig, I'll be super excited about reading that.

[Kol Saresk]

Don't forget Sevatar space surfing and then fighting his way through a battle-barge filled with menials an Astartes by himself just to reach his men and surviving. Never mind the fact that the only reason he was captured was because he had a stroke.

[Hyaenidae]

To be fair, Xarl was bleeding to death and suffering from vast internal injury, and was desperate. His headbutts against the Genesis champion was an act of desperation, and considering it killed him in the end, hardly successful.

 

And Sevetar is clinically insane, even by Astartes standards. I expect madness from him at all times, or I would be disappointed.

[The Acid Dog]

To be fair, Xarl was bleeding to death and suffering from vast internal injury, and was desperate. His headbutts against the Genesis champion was an act of desperation, and considering it killed him in the end, hardly successful.

 

And Sevetar is clinically insane, even by Astartes standards. I expect madness from him at all times, or I would be disappointed.

 

Not to mention Sevatar's, err, other talents that gave him an edge.

[Wade Garrett]

To be fair, Xarl was bleeding to death and suffering from vast internal injury, and was desperate. His headbutts against the Genesis champion was an act of desperation, and considering it killed him in the end, hardly successful.

 

You overlook the key detail that it killed the other guy first. If you headbutt someone in power armor to death with your uncovered noggin, I don't care if you drop dead twenty seconds later, that's still winning in my book!

[Scribe]

I like you guys, I dont want to get into another convo on the Wolves as UberMarines. Its annoying, and degrades the entire setting by its simple implications.

[Hyaenidae]

 

To be fair, Xarl was bleeding to death and suffering from vast internal injury, and was desperate. His headbutts against the Genesis champion was an act of desperation, and considering it killed him in the end, hardly successful.

You overlook the key detail that it killed the other guy first. If you headbutt someone in power armor to death with your uncovered noggin, I don't care if you drop dead twenty seconds later, that's still winning in my book!

 

I ain't overlooking anything. If I punch a dude in the face so that he'll release my knife hand, then stab him in the jugular with my knife while he's dazed, it doesn't mean I punched him to death.

 

And if you think a Night Lord aspires to die with his enemy at his feet, you should probably stay within the ranks of the XVII Legion, cousin.  :P

[Kol Saresk]

To be fair, Xarl was bleeding to death and suffering from vast internal injury, and was desperate. His headbutts against the Genesis champion was an act of desperation, and considering it killed him in the end, hardly successful.

 

And Sevetar is clinically insane, even by Astartes standards. I expect madness from him at all times, or I would be disappointed.

That's the general point. The Wolves are no better at killing other Astartes than other Astartes are. When Astartes fight Astartes, everybody dies.

[Wade Garrett]

And if you think a Night Lord aspires to die with his enemy at his feet, you should probably stay within the ranks of the XVII Legion, cousin. :P

Point.

To the VIII, a good death is one that happens to somebody else.

 

As for Sevatar:

He is a special case, what with being able to draw on the power of the shadow spirits of Nostromo.

;)