Space Wolfs Vs Primarchs

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

 

Russ was sent by the Emperor to bring the World Eaters back to Terra and have the Butchers Nails removed. Not execute Angron. This comes out later in Betrayer, the first scene is just Angron's spin on it.

 

Yeah... no.  Like K_S said, none of that is accurate.  Exactly why Russ met Angron and whether he did so on his own or under orders is specifically not mentioned in the book.

'Russ spoke again, pale eyes unwavering. 'The surgery must end, Angron. The Emperor himself wills it so. The massacres end here and now, as well. Look at what you have done to this world.' Betrayer, p. 163.

 

Russ then goes on to describe the requirement for the WE to return to the Palace so that the implants can be removed.

 

This matches the original premise that Russ was following the will of the Emperor, and is supported by what comes later in the book. It also indicates that he is adding his own spin to his instructions, i.e. the end of the massacres.

 

On p.293, Angron acknowledges that, whilst Russ had gone too far and that it was not supposed to turn into a battle, he would have to 'run back to Terra', i.e. he was there because he had been sent to (peacefully) bring the WE back.

 

However, what the Emperor exactly ordered remains unclear with Lograr's, 'Whether the Emperor ordered it or not. Russ spared your life,' p.295, i.e. he is not sure if the Emperor had ordered Angron's death if he resisted.

 

So whilst it is pretty obvious he was there under instructions (he would not have to report back to anyone otherwise nor would it have been the Emperor's will), it is not clear how far he was instructed to go.

[Red Angel]

However, what the Emperor exactly ordered remains unclear with Lograr's, 'Whether the Emperor ordered it or not. Russ spared your life,' p.295, i.e. he is not sure if the Emperor had ordered Angron's death if he resisted.

While it is true that Angron was surrounded by Wolves I don't think that Russ truly spared him. Primarchs are shown to survive even void exposure so marines with bolters aren't exactly high on the threats list. In my opinion it is Angron who spared the Wolf King when he has him on his mercy. Moreover if Russ wasn't allowed to kill Red Angel we can't truly say that he spared him, only that he did what was expected of him. The decision abot Angron life was not in his hands.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Lograr clearly disagrees with you, little brother :-)

[Red Angel]

Lograr clearly disagrees with you, little brother :-)

Considering that he thinks that chaos is way to go for mankind his opinion may not be valid. Also if we speak about toughness of the primarch, Lorgar surviving and quickly healing from damage done to him by Titan plasma shots (with his psyker powers and generally chaos juice but still) make me think that Angron was not in real danger.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

It is quite entertaining that you present your own opinions on a fictional event as less discriminating than of a fictional character in the same book. It was the same author that penned both scenes, Red Angel - classic fanboy stuff :)

 

As an aside, in addition to the experience you mention, he had also recently killed a brother Primarch, so ADB may have felt that this character would have had a reasonable idea of the danger Angron may or may not have been in ;)

[daveNYC]

Russ says a lot of things.  It's just as likely that the Emperor simply said that he wished that Angron would get his act together and stop with the implants, and Russ ran with it.  The 'troublesome priest' scenario is just as likely as an officially sanctioned military action.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Russ says a lot of things.  It's just as likely that the Emperor simply said that he wished that Angron would get his act together and stop with the implants, and Russ ran with it.  The 'troublesome priest' scenario is just as likely as an officially sanctioned military action.

Are you able to quote anything to support this?

[Red Angel]

It is quite entertaining that you present your own opinions on a fictional event as less discriminating than of a fictional character in the same book. It was the same author that penned both scenes, Red Angel - classic fanboy stuff

As an aside, in addition to the experience you mention, he had also recently killed a brother Primarch, so ADB may have felt that this character would have had a reasonable idea of the danger Angron may or may not have been in

What fanboy stuff? I only present my opinion about events in the book. I am not convinced that Angron was in real danger, especially in lights of other events in Betrayer. Lorgar words who is not omniscient narrator aren't necessarily right. Hovever I am aware that Primarchs or Adeptus Astartes for that matter are as killable as author wants them to be.

As a side note neither Russ, or Lorgar recently killed a brother Primarch. Granted Russ would kill Magnus if not for his spell but in the ende Cyclops managed to escape.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Of course you are right, I was mixing Lograr with Fulgrim, which a silly error :)

 

However, you are not disagreeing with Lograr, you are disagreeing with how the author wished to depict Angron. You are merely replicating the way ADB has presented Angron's denial of what actually happened. Hence the fanboy comment.

[Red Angel]

Of course you are right, I was mixing Lograr with Fulgrim, which a silly error

However, you are not disagreeing with Lograr, you are disagreeing with how the author wished to depict Angron. You are merely replicating the way ADB has presented Angron's denial of what actually happened. Hence the fanboy comment.

Not exactly. As far as I am aware ADB newer stated that Angron would die if Wolves start shooting. It's only opinion of character from his book, opinion of person who was not witness to the accident. I simply do not agree with it, however I do not claim that Red Angel couldn't die then. As I said Primarchs are as killable as author want's them to be.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

It is certainly true that Angron was in no danger in that Russ had no intention of killing him or ordering him to be killed. :)

[Red Angel]

It is certainly true that Angron was in no danger in that Russ had no intention of killing him or ordering him to be killed.

Of course. I however doubt that Angron would end dead if Russ gave the order, and in that we should propably agree to disagree.

[Kol Saresk]

And where does it explicitly say that Russ was acting on orders?

 

It doesn't. That was my point several posts ago to Wade. We don't know if the Emperor one day was looking over battle reports, got to the XII Legion and went "I wish Angron would stop using those Nails." and Russ heard it and went "I know what I'm getting Daddy for Hanukah!"

 

We don't know. "It is the Emperor's wish."

 

It's too ambiguous a statement. We were purposefully left in the dark on this matter. That was the intent of the writer. Confirm the position of executioner while throwing doubt on where it came from and its legality.

 

And again, there is the fact that one of the very tech-priests who researched into the Nails says removing them from Angron would kill him.

 

Not to mention there has not been a successful removal of the implant. Unless you want to count the vegetables. Removing the Nails meant death and the Emperor knew that. And we the readers, were made aware of that fact before we were made aware of the events that happened during the Night of the Wolf.

 

Circumstantial evidence points towards Russ acting on his own volition. Self-confession says he was carrying out the Emperor's "wishes". There is no non-circumstantial evidence. Neither side can be proved beyond reasonable doubt. And it was done that way on purpose.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I agree that it is deliberately ambiguous, K_S, at least for the moment :)

[Perrin]

Ignoring the whole argument about whether Russ was allowed to kill him, whether he was acting on orders etc etc, I think Angron would have died if Russ wished it.

 

UE has Guilliman nearly killed by 10 marines ambushing him. He was unprepared and wearing ceremonial armour, but that isn't enough of a handicap for me think that Angron would have survived. He was surrounded by a hell of a lot of Wolves. IIRC it doesn't state how many where actually in a position to fire on Angron, but the description of the scene makes me think it was a lot, I'm pretty sure that if all of those SW had opened fire Angron would have been blown to pieces. Then it would be WE v SW + Russ, and the end of another Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, part of the predication was that Angron was in a perfect position to kill Russ. From what we've seen of a Primarch's movements, it is more than likely that the Wolves would have killed Angron, but not before he killed Russ. So it'd essentially be the end of two Legions.

[Conn Eremon]

Aye, Russ was there to show Angron what he is doing to his sons, by showing what his sons could be as an example. For whatever reason, misguided or not.

 

"You can kill me, brother, but my sons would end you as you take my life. Where are your sons? What are they doing to protect their father?"

 

The answer was nothing. They were going berserk on the Space Wolves. While that meant a lot of Wolves were dying (and I don't buy the idea that the World Eaters are somehow superior. I think the Wolves would have held their own well enough and were not being massacred), it also meant the Wolves were able to outmaneuver the former Hounds into unfavorable positions and a lot of the were dying as well.

[RapatoR]

I just want to chime in with a little post created by A D-B a while ago: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/?p=3426198

 

Remember: This is Wahammer Universe. Few things are clearly cut. And thats what many of us like about it.

[Kol Saresk]

Why do you think I used the word "could"? ;)

[Conn Eremon]

I just want to chime in with a little post created by A D-B a while ago: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/277404-scars/?p=3426198

 

Remember: This is Wahammer Universe. Few things are clearly cut. And thats what many of us like about it.

Most of the people talking about it now were present in that thread at that time. :p

[Kol Saresk]

Funny how self-belief hides everything else beneath a cloak of shadow.

[Conn Eremon]

I must not be able to think today because that went right over my head.

[Kol Saresk]

I must not be able to think today because that went right over my head.

A lot of us were in that convo. And yet some of us are still trying to push the same beliefs that should have died in that convo. Our self-belief that we are right cloads the fact that our opinions are opinions and are therefore neither right nor wrong.

[Conn Eremon]

Ah, that's what I thought, just thought you were being much more pointed in who you were referring to. :sweat:

[Kol Saresk]

Nope. Very general statement. Rarely do I point fingers but when I do, it's so obvious a caveman can see it.