How does DA deal with Drop-Pod / Outflank SW

[Valaskjalf]

Hey dudes

 

Played a game against Tau/SW with DA/BA allies (1500+1500 per side) recently and it was vicious. I want to leave the the allies out of the equation because when it came down to it it was mostly my DA facing down the SW flanks while the BA dude tried to hold it together against Tau.

We played a few games and what I realised afterwards was that if you face SW with a DA army, going last is ridiculously difficult. 

My army consisted of the following:
Belial with 5 x DW Knights
Ezekiel

2 x 10 Tacticals with SoD
6 x RW BK (1xGrenade Launcher / 5 x Plasma Talons)

5 x Termies with 4 x TH/SS, 1 x LC, 1 x AC
4 x PC Devastators, 1 x Sarg.

SW army from what I can remember:
2 x 7 Longfangs high up in building with clear view of entire battlefield (ALL missile launchers) and he seems to have added Termies to the squads to give him the 2+ sv upfront
6 x Thunderwolf Cavalry with 3 x TH/SS, 2 x LC, TH/PF
1 x Wolflord on TWC with TH/SS saga of the hunter
Rhinos with extra armour and 10 Grey Hunters inside
Drop Pod with Arjac Rockfist and 5 x Wolf Guard Termies with 3 x Heavy Flamers, 2 x Stormbolters/PF

SW/Tau turn 1
The biggest issue I had was that, as in another game where he wad even more Pods, that when he goes first Im completely screwed and play catch-up the entire game. My careful deployment becomes useless, that along with 14 BS4 Missile Launcher blasts on my squad in the first turn, took out all my long-range fire and 5 of the one Tactical squad, along with a BA Plasma Cannon Dev from squad 1.

His TWC were outflanked and from previous experience I knew I had to take them down early. The idea was that my 18 Tacticals with the SoD would target them the moment they broke through cover on the right flank, and trying to down them with 72 bolter shots (re-rolls with Divination due to Ezekiel) the moment they get through - the missiles made that nigh impossible as I lost about half of them in the first turn.

The Tau player deepstruck 6x Stealthsuits right behind my tacticals and  5 BA Devestators from squad 2, a 6-man kroot unit was sent in to tie up the same 5 Devs. The Stealthsuits pumpbed out 24 S5 shots, killing the remaining BA Devs from squad one....that along with the kroot declaring assault on the final Devs squad meant that in 1 turn all of our heavy support (12 guys) were either dead or tied up.

DA/BA turn 1
I returned the favour by pumping out 72 Bolter shots from the Tactical squads (yay Dakka Banner) killing all 6 Stealth Suits in one vicious counter. 

I outflanked my 6 x RWBK to the side of his TWC with the idea to drop their toughness and plasma them to all hell with 10 x twin linked PT shots.....I managed to kill ONE. Their Stormshields and 2W each made it a massively difficult unit to deal with - and then the next turn they charged my bikes.

The rest of the Tau army was making a straight line to the back of the field, standing there and delivering a ridiculous amount of shots from their Firewarriors/Drones/Broadside and 3 x Crisis Suits and that along with the Leaning Tower of Missiles made it pretty much impossible for me to drop my TH/SS Termies anywhere in cover - they dropped without scatter and managed to kill 2 x Firewarriors and double-out the Ethereal...in the ensuing turn the squad was decimated by 40+ S5 shots.

I realised my Bikers were in deep trouble, I had hoped to at least get rid of half of the TWC with all the re-rolling plasma I was throwing at them, so I had to drop Belial and the DWK next to the bikers. My only saving grace would be if the the DWK would be able to withstand 7 Missile shots, fusion Blasters from the Crisis Suits and all sorts of guns from the Broadside in the next turn and then join the RWBK assault and help wipe out the TWC.

SW/TauTurn 2
As I expected all sort of fire power ripped loose on the DWKs, but their T5 was pivotal and after 20+ S4 ML hits and numerous BS5 hits from the Crisis Suits I managed to lose only 1 DWK!

I managed to kill one TWC through overwatch by the bikers (why couldnt I roll this way at BS4?) and put a wound on the Wolf Lord but the charge happened killing 1 x RWBK through HOW, I killed another 1 x TWC with my rending hammers and then the TWC with their TH/SS got rid of another 3 more bikers! Those wolves have an obscene amount of attacks on the charge, all hitting on 3+, especially with the Wolf Lord on there, he's ridiculous to take down. 

I knew this was going to turn out nasty so I used Hit n Run after his attacks and the 2 remaining RWBKs got out of the assault, rolling 9 inches. Phew. The idea now was to target that pesky Broadside, since he had no invuln and the plasma would knock his block off guaranteed.

DA/BA Turn 2
The Blood angels were still kept in check by tons of SW missiles and a frantic amount of S5 shots from the Tau, so were picked off bit by bit from high up. My two last RWBKs moved 12inches to get the jink and killed the Broadside as planned.

This was going to be the clincher...it HAD to be. I moved the DWK up and charged the TWC (The Wolf Lord now detached from the squad), HoW just brushed off the wolves...thats ok I still had Smite-mode! Belial scored 1 x kill with his AP3 attacks and the DWK 12 x S10 AP2 attacks at I4 SURELY had to get rid of at least most of the remaining 3 Wolves.....one kill. Now I was getting desperate, I had spent an entire twin-linked plasma phase, biker combat phase along with a charging Smite-mode DWK phase AND Belial and too much of the unit was still left along with the Lord. In response the 2 remaining TWC killed 3 more of my Knights! So I had 2 x DWK left along with Belial, to get rid of the 2 remaining TWC.

SW/Tau Turn 3:
As expected, my sacrificial final 2 RWBKs were easily destroyed by the fusion blasters etc etc from the Crisis Suits. Luckily my Knights and Belial were now in combat so no more worrying about those dang Missile Launchers causing any problems.

Arjac and his WG dropped right behind my Tacticals and Ezekiel, Heavy Flaming another 5x Tacticals into ashes and putting a wound on Ezekiel. I now only had 8 Tacticals left to take care of the Wolf Lord....32 S4 shots left to take off his remaining 3 wounds, this also probably the last round Ezekiel could use Divination on the Squad before they get into combat with the WG so I HAD to kill the Wold Lord this turn.

Now that the DWKs were tied up in combat, the SW player could focus ALL of his 14 missile blasts on the 3 x BA Jump units....luckily the Sanguinary Priests in each squad did their job and after 50+ missile hits the FNP kept the BA squads largely intact...

DA/BA Turn 3:
Luckily for me the Wolf Lord moved without 24inches of my Tacticals in the previous turn, getting the remaining tacticals in range for the SoD to be in effect. 32 re-rolling hits later and the Wolf Lord fails his final 3 Wounds from 15 wound-causing hits. I got "Slay the Warlord!"

Belial and the remaining DWKs made short work of the final 2 TWCs, not without losing another DWK though - so all in all I lost 4x RWBKs and 4 x DWKs to his 6 TWC....did not expect that.

The obvious charge from the wolf guard followed, but I managed to kill 2 of them through overwatch from the tacticals. Arjac split from the unit and threw his hammer at Ezekiel, killing him after failing both his Invuln and LOS rolls.....Im screwed.

My 5-man Tactical squad managed to hold out for 1 turn against the WG while the 3-man tacticals decided to make a run for it....not quite sure whereto as there were STILL 14 missiles peering down at them from the skyscraper at the end of the board.

So...needless to say, by the end of SW turn 4 I had lost my ENTIRE army, Belial and the last DWK were shot to bits standing in no-mansland after they killed the TWC, the Remaning WG termies and Arjac killed off the last 3 Tacticals and so I had no further participation in the game while the other armies were still pretty strong.

We played another game afterwards (BA/DA against 3000pts of SW) and even though we ran out of time it was goin to be another massacre. The SW player rolled highest again, went first again and put me under so much pressure first turn AGAIN (with the pods/outflanking shenannigans) that I actually had to DWA behind my own lines! I have no answer to it, because from the first go I was forced to defend in my own table half against units that seem much tougher and faster and well-rounded, with an answer to anything.

Think Im really struggling to find a way to use Ezekiel - I didnt have any transport at all so I think I really need to invest in some Rhinos or maybe a LR to keep Ezekiel safe, because against SW its not even safe to hide him right at the back of the field anymore....

What I learned from the 2 games:
- The SoD is pretty great, but putting it on a tactical squad gives you limited amount of uses for it and you really need the enemy to come to you. In the game I managed to down 6 Stealthsuits, 1 Wolf Lord and 2 WG Termies so they definitely made their points back - still a static gunline doesnt work so well in this army.

- DWKs are damn tough they managed to take a crazy amount of firepower, but even Smite Mode isnt a clear winner. Ive never used them before and   thought they would carve through those TWC - they didnt at all. Perhaps its better used on slightly less insane units?

- RWBKs are great, but I know I used them incorrectly. The -1T rad shell was wasted on T5 models and I knew that, for it to be effective they should      make the Target Unit T3 in order for the Plasma Talons to be able to double-tap multi-wound models. Perhaps putting it on Arjac would have been effective, yet he is Eternal Warrior so maybe not.

- Well against SW Im not sure how to counter 14 missiles per turn. There was no way for me to get to them as they were hidden in a tower with Champs in Termie armour positioned closest to my shooting, effectively taking the wounds on a 2+ save.....it was bad news.

- The ability for SW to put out that many shots in the game made them far more threatening than even Tau - we faced on average 50+ missile hits per turn apart from probably another 50+ BS5 shots per turn from Tau....targeting the missiles was an obvious choice, but I could never get into a position to do so.

- No clear idea how to use Ezekiel....Land Raider? I needed the re-rolls for the SoD but as soon as a Pod drops behind my lines his T4 means nothing.

- DA HQs are indeed sort of puny - I was lucky to run Belial into a regular TWC - he would have been pasted by that Wolf Lord, that thing was ridiculous.

- Need a way to make better use of Termies after DWA. The one unit got pummeled in the first game after dropping, while they were easily avoided in the 2nd game. When your enemy drops behind your lines in the first turn, by the time you DWA his entire army is in your half and it completely neuters DWA.

Sorry for the long post, this wasnt supposed to turn into a Batrep but it was the easiest way to explain what happened.

Some input from your guys would be great, especially when it comes to dealing with tons of tough outflanking models, countering drop pods and those dreaded missiles. Thanks!
 

[thepowerofwar]

Sounds like a bit of bad rolling but I noticed a few things.  The only units that can come in from reserves, deep strike, out flank , ect. as far as I have read are units in drop pods and death wing termis on the first turn.  Second I don't know how he could have assaulted you with the kroot turn 1 either since if they did a scout move or infiltrated and had the first turn they could not assault.  When I get home I will check my space wolf dex but he had way too many special weapons on the wolf cav I know they all can have shields but I think only 1 special weapon per squad. 

[Valaskjalf]

Sounds like a bit of bad rolling but I noticed a few things.  The only units that can come in from reserves, deep strike, out flank , ect. as far as I have read are units in drop pods and death wing termis on the first turn.  Second I don't know how he could have assaulted you with the kroot turn 1 either since if they did a scout move or infiltrated and had the first turn they could not assault.  When I get home I will check my space wolf dex but he had way too many special weapons on the wolf cav I know they all can have shields but I think only 1 special weapon per squad. 

Yeah I think the kroot only shot at turn 1, but the Devs didnt manage to do any damage to them on the DA turn one, everything scattered. And yes, I had ridiculously bad roll....in the first turn where my Devs got wiped out the SW player put a blast template over a squad of BA jumpers, it scattered over my Devs and I rolled 4 x 1s! 

 

From what I remember the TWC had 3 guys with SS and a couple with Thunder Hammers and 2 with a Lightning Claw which could re-roll either hits or wounds and had rending. Was damn vicious...

[facmanpob]

I am not going to comment on the game, as I haven't time to read it all, but the thing I will mention is that your DA army was illegal.

 

You can't have 4 TH/SS and a LC in a Deathwing squad, as the Sergeant can't swap his power sword, and you also mention taking the SoD without a Command Squad...

[Valaskjalf]

I am not going to comment on the game, as I haven't time to read it all, but the thing I will mention is that your DA army was illegal.

 

You can't have 4 TH/SS and a LC in a Deathwing squad, as the Sergeant can't swap his power sword, and you also mention taking the SoD without a Command Squad...

Hmm didnt realise that....guess its a good thing that unit got wiped out completely the turn they dropped and they were supposed to double as the Command Squad, well they were the command squad. This was my first game with DA as well so I expected to make some list issues, thanks for pointing this out. 

 

In that sense, you are somewhat forced to put the banner on a Ravenwing Command in order for the tacticals to be within the Standard's "bubble"? Or maybe a couple of Rhinos to rush as far forward as possible, disambark and be in range of the Bikers who are a little bit in front?

 

 

[Master Avoghai]

2 x 7 Longfangs high up in building with clear view of entire battlefield (ALL missile launchers) and he seems to have added Termies to the squads to give him the 2+ sv upfront

This was illegal. A squad of LF is max 5 models, 6 if you put a termi wolf guard inside. Moreover the squad leader of the LF may cannot be equipped with a ML... It's written in bold in the LF entry! <_<

Moreover the TWC don't have scout or outflank so he didn't have the right to so .

 

Before giving advices I think you should both correct your issues on your lists and make other games to see how it works.

[Valaskjalf]

2 x 7 Longfangs high up in building with clear view of entire battlefield (ALL missile launchers) and he seems to have added Termies to the squads to give him the 2+ sv upfront

This was illegal. A squad of LF is max 5 models, 6 if you put a termi wolf guard inside. Moreover the squad leader of the LF may cannot be equipped with a ML... It's written in bold in the LF entry!

Moreover the TWC don't have scout or outflank so he didn't have the right to so .

Before giving advices I think you should both correct your issues on your lists and make other games to see how it works.

I speak under correction, I think that the TWC did in fact start in his half, but yes there were definitely 14 missiles per turn so maybe that was an oversight.

Will definitely try to get some more games in quite soon - would still like to know what a generally good idea is to deal with enemies such as SW who can be so close to you so quickly and how to defend against being on the backfoot so early on.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Reserved Vindicators, swap Belial for Azzy and take Brilliant Planning (and take Coteaz )

[Master Avoghai]

Drop Pod with Arjac Rockfist and 5 x Wolf Guard Termies with 3 x Heavy Flamers, 2 x Stormbolters/PF

Just another side note...

 

1- you can't have 3 heavy flamers in a termi squad only one for 5 members (so unless he has 10 more termis that were dispatched in the squads, it's a big no-no)

2- you can't put termi in a drop pod.

 

It seems that your opponent has to re read his codex because the errors he did are things that are written white and black...

 

In that sense, you are somewhat forced to put the banner on a Ravenwing Command in order for the tacticals to be within the Standard's "bubble"? Or maybe a couple of Rhinos to rush as far forward as possible, disambark and be in range of the Bikers who are a little bit in front?

Why then? You can also take a command squad on foot...

[Kasper_Hawser]

Points to note from one who studied the Space Wolves codex

 

1) As many have pointed out, Long Fangs consists of one sergeant and five squad members. Only the squad members can swap their weapons for heavy weapons, the sergeant can only have some special weapons such as plasma guns.

 

Note about Long Fang special rule: they can split fire without doing leadership tests, but only if the squad leader DOES NOT DO ANYTHING, including firing his weapons. Not really game breaking but something you should know.

 

2) For SW outflankers, there are two ways

a) Wolf Scouts can either outflank, or use their Behind Enemy Lines rule to appear ANYWHERE board edge they wish if they roll high enough

b) Wolf Priests ("WP") can purchase an upgrade called Saga of the Hunter which confers him and the unit he is joined to the outflank rule, but only if the WP is wearing power armour, not runic armour or terminator armour. In addition, the unit he is attached to must be "Infantry" only. So luckily for you, no such thing as outflanking Thunderwolf Cav.

 

However, like i said, any Infantry unit he joins can outflank. Which potentially means 5 Wolf Guard Terminators with a Heavy Flamer or Assault Cannon down your throat. Or a unit of Grey Hunters. Or 15 screaming Blood Claws. Or 5 power armoured Wolf Guard with combi meltas/plasmas/flamers.

 

LOL, come to think of it, looks like there's lot more scarier things to worry about than Thunderwolf Cav.

 

3) Drop Pod capacity - for space wolves the maximum capactiy is 5. That being said, a Wolf Guard minimum is 3 per unit, so one can have a unit of 5 Wolf Guards, one can be upgrade to Arjac and the other 4 in TA. Not sure why Avoghai says you can't have Wolf Guard in a drop pod, WG can take Land Raider and Drop Pod as Dedicated transports if I'm not mistaken. Drop pod combi melta/plasma Wolf Guards is one of the few alpha strike tactics that Space Wolves have.

 

4) For specific anti Thunder wolf cav strategy with Storm shields, well, I admit not much you can do about them beyond lots of dakka dakka dakka or using a Vindicator. One useful thing to note is that they are bloody expensive, 50 points for a naked wolf, +20 or +30 for a storm shield. So if he uses too many Cav, it means less Grey Hunters or Long Fangs. Keep that in mind.

 

Hope it helps. What the others said about the illegality of your list is true too: I thought only command squads or certain HQs can take the standards.

[Master Avoghai]

Not sure why Avoghai says you can't have Wolf Guard in a drop pod, WG can take Land Raider and Drop Pod as Dedicated transports if I'm not mistaken.

It's because I was used to the "transport capacity : 10 but cannot embark models in termi armour" that you see in the rhino description. In fact, the only reason why I've never seen drop pod embarking termi is not because it's forbidden but because they don't have the option...

Indeed WG can take a pod... Forgotten this "fear of the teleportation" feature :lol:

 

But drop pod or not it doesn't resolve the fact that he played 7 LC for one LF squad, or 3HF in a 5 men termi squad.

[Valaskjalf]

Thanks all for your inputs, really appreciate it. Yeah I must say playing DA for the first time was somewhat daunting, especially against a guy who has only ever fielded SW and appears to know all their tricks. 

 

I see someone said to swap Belial for Azrael....I did find him to be somewhat tricky to use and very slow. Is Azrael a better choice because he makes both DW and RW troops? Id love to use him, perhaps make use of the 4++ he gives to the guys close to him.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Twas I, because you use a mixed wing list there are a number of reasons why Azzy 'can' be better than Belial for you. Check out the thread about Azzy for guidance.

Brilliant planning will allow you to more successfully bring Vindicators (that MUST be reserved to protect them from missile spam) on once the enemy deathstars are on your side of the table, Coteaz will allow you to target close deep strikers (nice if you attach him to a unit of four PC Devastators), if you take Mortis or Contemtor Mortis you will be able to target units coming in from reserve, dare I say it but a deepstriking Land Speeder Vengeance might be a good way to clear some of his Long Fangs too