How corrupted would the traitors have been by the Siege?

[AGPO]

In much of the old fluff, the traitor legions arriving on Terra bore far more resemblence to full chaos space marines than the legions that had departed Istvaan. I picked up a copy of Dark Vengeance a few months ago for the rules and Dark Angels mostly, but I've got the chaos models sitting there begging for some paint and my defenders of Terra could do with some adversaries. I'm only seven books in to the heresy series so I've no idea how far down the corrupted route the traitors have gone so far. Would it be feasible to blend some more overtly chaotic elements into say a Sons of Horus army with the current FW bits, on the grounds that some units weremore readily and speedily corrupted than others?

 

My current thinking is to mix the raptor and CSM boxes with FW's reavers and other Sons of Horus bits like the MkIV helms. I'd like to make it usable in as many eras as possible, so I'm not sure how heavy to go on the chaotic element. Any thoughts and advice would be much appreciated.

[GrandMagnus]

I believe they had changed, but not in an exagerated way (some more than other obviously). Legions such as Death Guard, Word Bearers and Emperors Children could probably be considered the most mutated and "strange" of the traitors, while the Sons of Horus, Night Lords and Iron Warriors (just examples) would still for the most part look like Space marines but with more spikes on their armour, grim trophies, marks of chaos perhabs.

 

I would leave any kind of mutations out because these only occured due to the exposure to the warp once they fleed into the Eye of Terror.

[Chickenleg]

Death guard arrived on Terra as plague marines and EC had their noise marine thing going on, among others. I dont think their armor would have mutated a lot tho, not like their 40k counterparts. If you can mix and find a good balance with the 2 lines, you can make it work.

[Kol Saresk]

In much of the old fluff, the traitor legions arriving on Terra bore far more resemblence to full chaos space marines than the legions that had departed Istvaan. I picked up a copy of Dark Vengeance a few months ago for the rules and Dark Angels mostly, but I've got the chaos models sitting there begging for some paint and my defenders of Terra could do with some adversaries. I'm only seven books in to the heresy series so I've no idea how far down the corrupted route the traitors have gone so far. Would it be feasible to blend some more overtly chaotic elements into say a Sons of Horus army with the current FW bits, on the grounds that some units weremore readily and speedily corrupted than others?

 

My current thinking is to mix the raptor and CSM boxes with FW's reavers and other Sons of Horus bits like the MkIV helms. I'd like to make it usable in as many eras as possible, so I'm not sure how heavy to go on the chaotic element. Any thoughts and advice would be much appreciated.

Hmm, if you're thinking to make it as useable in as many eras as possible, perhaps take inspiration from Flint's Pre-Heresy Command squad.

[Galron]

Night Lords and Iron Warriors would pretty much look the same as they do now. Sons of Horus of course wouldnt look much different either, they didnt start doing the pacts with daemons thing until they were struggling to stay alive in the Eye. I doubt corruption was very widespread even in the noted legions that were heavily corrupted, more like slect units with more exposure to it showed a bit more.

[Spinsanity]

Considering that the Word Bearers depicted in Betrayer sport horns and armour trim, yeah, tey most likely were pretty mutated by the time they got to Terra... Sure not all legions will have mutated as much, but considering the pre-Istvaan SoH already bear spikes,,,

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, the SoH seemed rather adoptive of the traditions Erebus brought to them. As early as Istvaan III, they had been seen wearing sigils taught to them by Erebus as well as hoisting the banners of the warrior-lodges. They were also very interested in the Gal Vorbak following the Dropsite Massacre.

[Conn Eremon]

The Sons of Horus leaped headfirst into their Lodge-cults, the Word Bearers have begun to be possessed, Fulgrim and Angron have already ascended to Daemonhood, the Emperor's Children and Word Bearers have large populations of cultists . . .

 

To answer your question, as corrupted as you want them to be.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Running through the list: 

 

Sons of Horus: May have already adopted demonic pacts given how far Horus had fallen. After all, the warrior lodges had started within the SoH first and the lodges themselves were rooted in the daemonic cults of Davin.

 

Word Bearers: Enuff said. Already had possessed Gal Vorbak. Wouldn't be surprised to have more mutated marines by the time fo Siege.

 

World Eaters: Strangely enough, I don't see Khorne handing around much mutations. Sure he makes them more insane and stronger, but short of ascending a few to daemon princes of Khorne, I think they are just regular Space Marines turned mad by their Butcher Nails and Khorne influence.

 

Death Guard: Tragedy would be the ENTIRE Legion would have been corrupted by Nurgle and emerged as plague marines all, no exception.

 

Emperor's Children: They all essentially became Noise Marines in diferent degrees, but in the end they were all Idiots just having an orgy while the siege was going on. I don't read in any fluff where they actually participated in the siege.

 

Iron Warriors: At the end of Angel Exterminatus, Perturbo and his legion fleet had to enter a portal of some sort to escape the destruction of the world after Fulgrim ascended. He and his legion may or may not come out of it unscath. But if old fluff is to be believed, he wasn't granted daemonhood until the Iron Cage incident well after the siege. I don't think the legion as a whole mutated a lot though. Even in 40K, they still prefer to fight the old fashion way, adding a few daemonic siege engines just for chaos flavour.

 

Night Lords: No mutation at all apparently since Kurze was so against it, as evidenced in the Istvaan masaccre where he viewed the Gal Vorbak with disgust. Plus most of his legion was tying up the Dark Angels conventionally. Post heresy, they probably use chaos worship when it suits their needs.

 

Alpha Legion: How the hell does anyone know, even the twins themselves seem confused whether they follow chaos or their own path or not.

[Augustus]

Nice summation, Kasper H.

 

As for my opinion on the Night Lords:

The Night Lords...do whatever the Night Lords want to do. Curze now probably has little control of his legion. We know that he doesn't know how to purge/keep order in the Legion.... Especially now that Forgeworld has hinted that there are huge chunks of Night Lords "Night Lording" on the fringes of the galaxy...who knows what they look like now.

[Galron]

It was more of a case of Curze not caring, rather than lacking control of his Legion. In later books he is repeatedly listed as saying he hates his Legion. He probably looked at M'Shen not only as validation for his actions but as a reprieve from his role. They also looked down on chaos worshippers as being weak. Iron Warriors abhorred mutation, they would cut off mutated parts and replace it with bionics. Sons of Horus did have spikes before the turn, but much of that is leftover tribal traits from their homeworld. They really didn't start turning to the great powers in the sense of mutations and possessions until after they got back to the Eye and the other Legions started taking out revenge on them. It why they are the smallest legion in 40k times, every time they would pick a new god promising salvation they would lose guys to possession.

 

As said, No one really knows what the hell Alpha Legion was doing and still don't know whose team they are on. I would not expect to see many mutations, especially not as early at the Battle of Terra. As arguably the most sane of the "traitor" legions I think they would have some issues with sprouted tentacles and horns and would try to remove them in horror.

[Kol Saresk]

Small pedantic: The Black Legion isn't the smallest Legion by 40K. On the road to 40K, Abaddon was in charge of a very small force. We actually don't if that was the entirety of the XVI, just that that force is what would become the beginning of the Black Legion, which would go on to become the largest faction.

 

Also, the Sons of Horus have already been seen wearing Chaotic symbols in Galaxy in Flames.

 

So it is possible, that there were mutations at the Siege.

 

Side note: When Vengeful Spirit comes out, that will go a long way to helping us find out their current corruption level.

 

EDIT: Actually, the Alpha Legion Index Astartes points out that, in 40K, the Alpha Legion had a habit of hiding mutations until some predetermined critical moment, before uncovering them in the hopes to screw with the enemy.

[Galron]

The black legion might have found new recruits but as far as original marines they are the smallest in 40k. Too many years of warbands waffling between the gods and losing troops to possession not to mention until Abbadon really took charge and united most of what was left of the Black Legion and made them a force to be reckoned with and able to beat back predations from warbands from other legions who also fractured more and more over time. This info might have been retconned by more recent fluff but I rarely side with new rewrites if it conflicts with old stuff.

[Wade Garrett]

Yes, the Night Lords think all Chaos worshippers are weak.

 

Except for Possesed like the Exalted, Daemon Princes like Krieg Acrebus, and so on.

[Kol Saresk]

No, it hasn't been retconned although the Black Legion is pretty much a different entity from the Sons of Horus. One might say the XVI died the day the Legion donned the Black.

 

Yes, the Night Lords think all Chaos worshippers are weak.

 

Except for Possesed like the Exalted, Daemon Princes like Krieg Acrebus, and so on.

They think fanaticism is weak. Making pacts to secure power is only a natural part of life.

[Conn Eremon]

The black legion might have found new recruits but as far as original marines they are the smallest in 40k. Too many years of warbands waffling between the gods and losing troops to possession not to mention until Abbadon really took charge and united most of what was left of the Black Legion and made them a force to be reckoned with and able to beat back predations from warbands from other legions who also fractured more and more over time. This info might have been retconned by more recent fluff but I rarely side with new rewrites if it conflicts with old stuff.

The new Black Legion supplement confirms the Black Legion as the largest Legion by 40k, but this is not a retcon.

 

I won't say it has always been the case, but I'm pretty sure that it has.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, I've never seen where it says otherwise and the Black Legion is the one that is so large that Abaddon has four commanders and each commander has subcommanders who have- let's just say it is the only Legion that has a hierarchy(a stable hierarchy) and is large enough to give Abaddon the momentum to launch not one, but Thirteen Black Crusades by giving the other Forces of Chaos a banner large enough for them all to rally behind.

[Conn Eremon]

They are also the only Legion I am aware of to accept any and all comers, so long as they swear fealty to Abaddon, which swells their numbers vastly with Marines previously of other Legions.

 

I think it is the autonomy that Warbands of the Black Legion enjoy that might give the idea of a small force.

[Galron]

Retcon then, plus doesn't take into account captured geneseed and so forth. In the older fluff(and if I remember when I get home I will check my old books), the Black Legion was blamed for losing the Heresy and the other Legions dog piled them forcing the Legion to make pacts with each of the four gods at various times for safety and each time they did this they lost quite a few original marines to possession and then lost more when they pledged to a different god and the old one got mad about it. They were able to maintain a stable hierarchy which the majority of the other Legions were unable to do and the other legions slowly lost the ability to wage a coherent war against them/lost interest and the Black Legion built back up.

 

Oh and those few NL guys that took up chaos gifts and such are noted exceptions but aside from being notable in themselves and playing a major role in their various novels, most NLs do look down on chaos or any other worshipers as weaklings. Even the Exalted was looked down on for what he had become(although feared and respected at the same time), and no one was going "I want to be like him when I grow up."

[Kol Saresk]

I fail to see the retcons with the Black Legion.......

 

And the Night Lord IA article said they looked down on the worship of Chaos and they themselves had a low mutation rate, but it wasn't uncommon to see them make daemonic pacts for temporal power. Which Krieg Acerbus and the Exalted would easily fit into, as well as the Night Lords who followed the Horned God, as described in the Exorcists' section of the Badab war books IIRC.

[Conn Eremon]

Galron, that is all correct, but that is all M31-ish. Before Abaddon takes over the Sons of Horus and renames them the Black Legion.

 

Not a retcon, you are just forgetting the other nine thousand years of the Black Legion gaining greater and greater dominance.

[Marshal Rohr]

I dont like the idea that Primarchs are already becoming Daemon Princes, because it strangles off all creativity for anyone who wants to build a Death Guard Army that isnt plague riddled, an Emperor's Children army that isnt like the backstage of a Manson concert, or a World Eaters army where they are fighting for liberation.

 

A D-B introduced the World Eaters as freedom fighters storyline, and then drove it right off the rails, before it could be expanded on to any worthwhile degree. Its pretty hard to make your case that the World Eaters want freedom, while the Primarch is eating innocent people and shouting about skulls and blood. 

[Wade Garrett]

ANGRON was the freedom fighter. The War Hounds and the World Eaters that came after them were plain old fighters, first, last, and always.

 

If you want a Legion that would free orphans from their sweatshops while giving them hugs and teddy bears, that's either the Salamanders or maybe the Raven Guard.

[Marshal Rohr]

Wade, some of us like the idea that the traitors are fighting to end tyranny, but lose their way because Chaos is inherently corruptive. How tragic would it be to read about the world eaters coming to save a planet from an oppressive imperial regime only to lose it to the nails and make things worse?

[Kol Saresk]

It'd be weird. Just....... Weird.