Centurions in a Pod Army (Reserves Question)

[The Acid Dog]

The title is a little misleading. I am well aware that Centurions cannot take pods, so please read a bit further.

I'd like to start by saying that it's not my intention to use what I'm asking about for janky "It's technically RAW" shenanigans. I'm theming an army around a company of Deathwatch, operating in support of a war effort, deploying in a massive concerted strike against an enemy target. All I'm really looking for here is an excuse to buy some models I really like and add them to my army for a fully legal 2500pt list WITHOUT them getting annihilated on the first turn. Onward to the question...

Citing p124 of the BRB, first column, second-to-last paragraph: I'm interpreting this as saying that, if a Captain were to join a unit of Tactical Marines in their Rhino, they would count as two units for the purposes of determining how many units can be placed in reserve (Captain + Squad with DT).

However, if we change that squad's transport to a Drop Pod, things get a little different. Citing the previous rule and p10 of the BRB FAQ, first column, third Q: Since the squad is in a transport that must start in reserve, they do not count toward the reserves equation. Further, since the Captain has joined the unit before the game (and was declared to do so), he must also be placed in the Drop Pod, and (here's where the FAQ comes into play) he therefore ceases to count toward the reserves equation as well.

Now, my entire list is embarked in Pods save for a tentative unit of Centurions, and there are fliers that will arrive in support. I would like to take those Centurions and embark them in the Storm Raven.

To show the math:
1 unit deployable / 2 = .5
.5 rounded up = 1 can be placed in reserve.

What do you think? Can I place my Centurions (I'd really like to buy some) in the Storm Raven so they don't have to sit around and get shot to death by the enemy army on the first turn? If a rules lawyer starts shouting at me at a tournament I probably wouldn't go to anyway, can I safely engage him/her with these rules as I've interpreted them?

I've asked my friends at my FLGW, and they all seemed fine with it once I'd explained it. But, since we mostly play for the zazz-factor, I'd like to get some outside opinions from more learned rules-scribes.

[Hyuzanriu]

As long as the person on the other side of the table adheres to reason, which you have presented, I cannot see why they wouldn't allow this.  You will still having units on the table at the end of the the first whole game turn as long as they don't table you when you come on.

[The Acid Dog]

As long as the person on the other side of the table adheres to reason, which you have presented, I cannot see why they wouldn't allow this. You will still having units on the table at the end of the the first whole game turn as long as they don't table you when you come on.

Well, there's one vote in favor! As for getting tabled... if my opponent manages to kill that many Marines in a single player turn, I probably wasn't going to win anyway.

[MordentHex]

I would be more worried about losing so many points in one place if they plane gets knocked out of the sky.

[hallodx]

I would be more worried about losing so many points in one place if they plane gets knocked out of the sky.

I second this. And since that formation of Tau (name forgot) can be accessed without using ally, it would be tough days for flyer transports.

[The Acid Dog]

I would be more worried about losing so many points in one place if they plane gets knocked out of the sky.

 

Getting off-topic with this, so I'll just post a quick response and then leave it: Certainly possible, but since they'll be arriving on the second turn (at the earliest) the plan was to engage Interceptor/Skyfire models with the first wave of pods, and, when the Raven arrives, to Skies of Fury the Centurions near a Locator Beacon equipped pod from the first wave.  No fuss on the scatter, and just a fraction of a player turn at risk of losing both to the same shot.  It's not without risk, but no battle plan is.

 

An opponent COULD put lots and lots of Interceptor in their list to counter, but my gaming group frowns on list tailoring.

 

And to address hallodx: Not just what I said above, but no one in my gaming group uses that crap, and I'm not much into the tournament scene.  The chance of me seeing that formation is low.

 

And again, the option of putting the Centurions in reserve is not only thematic with the fast-surgical-strike theme, it's also preferable to leaving them on the table alone for the first turn and seeing them all get shot to death anyway.

[MordentHex]

Forgive me but, i remembered that you use to be able to buy transport vehicles without having it dedicated to a unit. can centurions just be dropped in a spare drop pod?

[The Acid Dog]

Forgive me but, i remembered that you use to be able to buy transport vehicles without having it dedicated to a unit. can centurions just be dropped in a spare drop pod?

 

No longer true, or they'd be in a pod like everyone else!

[hallodx]

Forgive me but, i remembered that you use to be able to buy transport vehicles without having it dedicated to a unit. can centurions just be dropped in a spare drop pod?

A dedicated transport can only carry it's unit, or empty at game start. It can, however, let other unit get in later. DP in this case, should be started in reserve, and a unit in reserve can not mount another vehicle in any case.

 

If centurions can be DPed, people would had been using them widely.

[MordentHex]

fair enough, wit hthat said, i would then, just have the centurions start on the table behind terrain that clocks LOS and have them just move forward on the first turn. they are SaP, just place them where they can get into the action  by moving up when your reserves arrive. Also has the added bonus of not having to buy a storm eagle.

[The Acid Dog]

I appreciate the tactics suggestions, but, those aside, is my interpretation of the rules correct?  That's what the topic is about.

[Grey Mage]

We are NOT talking tactics here, there is a rules question, it has been asked and it will be answered. If you want to give tactical advice, do it in tactica or wait for brazentooth to start a thread there.

 

Units that must start in reserve dont count towards reserves. A unit is counted as one with its DT. Got it, were on the same page there.

 

So that covers your pods, and their units, and the flyer.

 

Now... as for the rest, youd need four units other than that to get both the HQ and your centurians into reserves. Why? Because you have to have an HQ, and all marine HQs are ICs, so theyll always count as one unit. The centurians are another unit, and dont have to be in reserves... so now you got two.

Now... if you only wanted one or the other in reserves... sure, though it seems very odd to leave your captain out on his own. If your captain was the only thing on the board... then also sure, 1/2=.5 rounding up is 1.

Why all this? Because the captain doesnt cease to count towards the reserves equation, instead he is *always* counted as a separate unit, and the drop pod is not HIS dedicated transport, and as such does not confer its ability to work outside normal reserve rules.

[The Acid Dog]

We are NOT talking tactics here, there is a rules question, it has been asked and it will be answered. If you want to give tactical advice, do it in tactica or wait for brazentooth to start a thread there.

 

Units that must start in reserve dont count towards reserves. A unit is counted as one with its DT. Got it, were on the same page there.

 

So that covers your pods, and their units, and the flyer.

 

Now... as for the rest, youd need four units other than that to get both the HQ and your centurians into reserves. Why? Because you have to have an HQ, and all marine HQs are ICs, so theyll always count as one unit. The centurians are another unit, and dont have to be in reserves... so now you got two.

 

Now... if you only wanted one or the other in reserves... sure, though it seems very odd to leave your captain out on his own. If your captain was the only thing on the board... then also sure, 1/2=.5 rounding up is 1.

 

Why all this? Because the captain doesnt cease to count towards the reserves equation, instead he is *always* counted as a separate unit, and the drop pod is not HIS dedicated transport, and as such does not confer its ability to work outside normal reserve rules.

 

I'd thought that was the case as well.  However, my argument is not that the Captain joins the unit and therefore cease to count as a separate unit (the rules say he always does regardless), but instead where he is at the start of the game.  To reference the FAQ question, it specifically says "units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve" do not count toward reserves, and makes no mention of dedicated transports.  Note also that the examples given are not only pods, but Valkyries as well, which were not DTs in any non-FW Codex at the time, as far as I'm aware.  In this case it's two units in one vehicle that MUST start in reserve, and therefore two units that do not count when determining how many units must be deployed.  Make sense?

[Brother Casman]

Hmmm... my understanding of the Reserves Limit Calculation was as follows:

Number of Units in the army/2 = Reserves Limit

So, a hypothetical list with the following:

1 Captain

1 Tactical Squad (10 marines)

- 1 drop pod

1 Tactical Squad (9 marines)

- 1 drop pod

1 Storm Raven

1 Centurion Squad

would have 7 units/2 = 3.5 and we round up to 4. So, our reserves limit is 4 for our little army. Since the drop pods and raven must start in reserve, those will use up 0 slots in our reserve limit, leaving us with 4. If our marines start in their dedicated transports, then they don't take up any slots either, so we can still put up to 4 more units in reserve. If the Captain joins a Tactical Squad, and the Centurions start in the Raven, then they would use 2 slots, leaving us with 2 left over. So everything can start in reserve.

If I've misremembered how squads and their dedicated transports add to the Reserves Limit Calculations, and the combined units only add one each, then our Reserves Limit would be 5/2 = 2.5, round up to 3. Everything should still fit into reserves, with one slot left over.

Of course, if I've grossly misunderstood how we calculate the Reserves Limit, then feel free to correct me.

Edited to add: On re-reading the FAQ, it would seem that the Captain and Centurion squad would not count against the Reserves Limit if they start embarked on vehicles that must start in reserves. So our little army above should use 0 reserves "slots", not 2. I've left my calculations above unedited, but they may be incorrect, just so y'all are aware.

[Fibonacci]

You are counting the drop pods.  There are two sides to the reserve limit equation.  One equation; two sides.  Drop pods do not count for the eqation so they do not count on either side.

[Spinsanity]

Considering the wording of the FAQ, I'd go with Brazentooth's reading : any unit fielded inside a vehicle that must be kept in reserve (Drop Pods and flying transports), the unit doesn't count towards the reserves limit, even if the transport is not a dedicated transport.

 

So yes, your Cents are fine. Hell, if they're transported in a Raven, they don't even use up your first reserve slot.