What is the Dark Angels' "inherent corruption"?

[HsojVvad]

I am reading Legion. I came apon this paragraph.

 

 

 

“Can’t you stop it? Engage with another Legion, perhaps?’

‘John, we have tested them all, one by one. The Dark Angels first, centuries ago. There is too much inherent corruption in them. The gene-seed weakness in all of the older Legions has been exacerbated by the need to keep them up to strength for the Great Crusade.”

 

 

Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “Legion.” iBooks. https://itun.es/ca/uHtZy.l   

 

 

This puzzles me. What is the "Inherent Corruption"? I never knew of DA to be corrupt. Also there is mention of "older Legions". If DA are suppose to be the first, what or who are the "older Leginons" then? How can there be something older than the First DA Legion?

 

Please no spoilers, if the answers are in the book Legion. I don't think they are since the book is about Alpha Legion, so that is why I am asking here. 
 

I thought I knew about DA, but now this corruption is throwing me off on what I know about DA. Does anyone have any answers and can explain what this is supposed to mean. 

 

[Demus Ragnok]

 

I am reading Legion. I came apon this paragraph.

 

 

 

“Can’t you stop it? Engage with another Legion, perhaps?’

‘John, we have tested them all, one by one. The Dark Angels first, centuries ago. There is too much inherent corruption in them. The gene-seed weakness in all of the older Legions has been exacerbated by the need to keep them up to strength for the Great Crusade.”

 

 

Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “Legion.” iBooks. https://itun.es/ca/uHtZy.l   

 

 

This puzzles me. What is the "Inherent Corruption"? I never knew of DA to be corrupt. Also there is mention of "older Legions". If DA are suppose to be the first, what or who are the "older Leginons" then? How can there be something older than the First DA Legion?

 

Please no spoilers, if the answers are in the book Legion. I don't think they are since the book is about Alpha Legion, so that is why I am asking here. 

 

I thought I knew about DA, but now this corruption is throwing me off on what I know about DA. Does anyone have any answers and can explain what this is supposed to mean. 

 "Them all"- referring to all the legions other than the XX.

 

Dark Angels "first" centuries ago. First.

 

"Corruption in them"- referring to all the legions other than the XX not just the First.

 

"Older legions"- all of the legions "older" than the XX.

[Bryan Blaire]

To be honest, I don't think anyone really knows. The Legion with the most inherent gene-seed weakness was the Thousand Sons, and they were Legion XV. It doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO, from what we know right now, the Thousand Sons are younger than the Dark Angels Legion. However, I have a feeling there are still a lot of revelations yet to come in the Horus Heresy series that have been "redacted"/forgotten by 40K and have not been really hinted at as to allow us to actually guess at just yet.

 

One other place we have heard regarding "taint" inherent in the Dark Angels line by reputed members of a cabal (I believe this is the same Cabal as Legion and later books, given that it also seems to be devotedly anti-Chaos - at the very least it is "anti-demon that inhabits Caliban") was regarding Caliban itself in Descent of Angels, and specifically in regard to Zahariel himself. If gene-seed actually affected someone becoming a Librarian, rather than the recruit having to have psychic talent beforehand, I would speculate given the seeming psychic strength of the Lion, the taint/inherent corruption could actually be an inherent connection to the Warp/psychic talent getting up there in strength to Magnus/the Thousand Sons. As a bit of evidence, it seems like in addition to Magnus, the Lion was actually contacted by Tzenteech/his minion(s), something that it seems none of the other Legion's Primarchs had occur and given Tzenteech's predilection for and connection to psychic power/sorcery/Warp power use, that seems like something that highlights this connection for us.

 

Incidently, I find the homonymn title of Descent of Angels to be quite clever considering that they are talking about both the event on Caliban and the actual ancestry of the Dark Angels, especially as it does highlight and focus on the life of Zahariel, one of the first Calibanite Librarians (and possibly given the connection above, I'm wondering if I'm not just imagining the psychic "taint"/connection within the Dark Angels).

[HsojVvad]

Thanks Damus Ranok. That explains it perfectly to me. Greatly appreciated Brother DR. 

 

I am going to have to pick up that book BB. Looks like a good read from what you explained there. 

[Bryan Blaire]

 

I am going to have to pick up that book BB. Looks like a good read from what you explained there.

Sadly, not everything I said specifically comes from Descent of Angels (although the Zahariel stuff does), a lot of it gathered from across the Dark Angels Legion storyline from all the HH books written so far. It is also my interpretation, so you may come to completely different conclusions once you read all the works. I'd really like to hear your thoughts and conclusions once you get through it all!

[CovertToaster]

Fallen Angels tells us that there was a warp taint inherent to Caliban which created the monstrous creatures and because the creatures kept  the population away from the source of the taint there were no native Calibanite psykers until after the Lion's crusade to exterminate the creatures of Caliban. So Zahariel was a bit of an anomaly that can be easily explained as he was fairly recent addition to the Legion at that time.

 

The taint referred to in Legion could be due to the exposure of the Lion to the warp taint of Caliban as he was growing up which altered his own gene seed which newer stocks were then derived from in preceding years of the great crusade and bought about the increase in psychic talent in new recruits and thus the aforementioned "taint" in the gene seed. Remember all Dark Angels recruits come from death worlds were they are already excellent warriors with an innate distrust of psykers so it is unlikely that any recruits were selected based upon natural psychic ability but rather the induction process that turns them from scouts to marines causes some to manifest psychic ability.  

 

That's my best guess there are references to the DA's natural distrust of psykers in the Acension of Balthasar audio drama and other places so it's probably a fairly solid view of it.

[Bryan Blaire]

Except if they truly examined the Legions "centuries ago", then at the time of Legion, it is unlikely they are referring to anything inherently Calibanite, because Caliban had been discovered only recently given the timeline of Legion, probably within a century.

 

It may be a legacy of the Lion's gene-seed, but it likely is a pre-Caliban legacy.

 

There were definitely pre-"Destruction of the Beasts" psykers on Caliban, because Zahariel specifically refers to his fear of being burned as a witch for what he can psychically do as it is the same as what those witches did, not realizing that it was not looked upon negatively by the Legion when he is first confronted about his psychic talent by Israfael.

 

Also, the pre-Caliban Legion is most definitely not recruited from "mostly death worlds", because many of them are described as Terran. Also, specifically distrust psykers? Then why would it be that a Dark Angel Librarian is present at each questioning of a Fallen within the Rock, the most sensitive of all things done by the Unforgiven? That description makes no sense regarding 30K or 40K Dark Angels, at least internally. Now, I will agree that they are very distrustful of any "outsider" psykers, because those individuals could inadvertently discover the Secret immediately by a simple slip of the mental shield from any Inner Circle or Deathwing member. While this may be the case and line members of the Unforgiven may be distrustful of Librarians, it strains credulity to extend this to members of the Unforgiven that are "in the know".

[Chaplain Lucifer]

What the Cabal considers taintmay not be as in tainted by chaos, but tainted in a way that doesn't serve their purposes... So they consider taint for instance a factor that makes the DA not usefull as pawns in their game.

[Phoebus]

As others have pointed out, the corruption the Cabal refer to predates the Imperium's discovery of Caliban.  The specific mention of gene-seed and a timeline that stretches back to the Emperor's Primarch project make this rather clear.  The "corruption" then has to refer to the inherent flaws that could be found within each Primarch.  Deliverance seems to reference built-in variant traits, though not all appear to be negative.

The Lion's gene-seed "corruption" could thus refer to social and psychological traits that are now prevalent among the Dark Angels:  after the Heresy, they are described as brooding, taciturn, introverted, and secretive.  They don't certainly don't trust easily.  Those traits don't seem to inform characters like Corswain, but Nemiel and Belath could be described that way.

 

Those traits might not seem catastrophic at first glance, but we should remember that the Cabal required a Legion that was going to be very trusting and willing to take them at their word in a lot of crucial matters.  "Corruption", in this case, might just be gene-seed-driven social shortcomings that would make the Dark Angels incompatible with the Cabal's needs.  That same logic could be extended to most Legions:  the Emperor's Children might be thought of as too arrogant; the Iron Warriors as too blunt and intractable; the White Scars as too willful and independent; the Space Wolves as too ferocious and animalistic; the Night Lords as too sociopathic and untrustworthy; the Blood Angels as compromised by the emerging Red Thirst; the Iron Hands as fraught with cyber-driven psychological issues; the World Eaters as too violent and aggressive even before incorporating the Butcher's Nails; the Thousand Sons for obvious reasons; the Luna Wolves for being formed on brutal gang culture; and the Word Bearers for obvious reasons.

 

You'll note that I didn't include the Imperial Fists, the Ultramarines, the Death Guard (pre-Mortarion), the Salamanders, or the Raven Guard.  I'll admit, I don't know how the above definition of "corruption" would apply to them.

[Brother dean]

It is quite simply a genetic defect in every legion they have examined...  DA geneseed may be "the most stable" but that doesnt mean it isnt degrading...  

 

 

 

The Legion was founded on Terra in the middle of the Unification wars and fought all that and around half the Crusade before the came across their primarch who THEN instilled his "learned" behaviors of distrust and paranoia into his legion.  If the Cabal tested the 1st "long ago" then it was before their psyche was warped by The Lion and his upbringing.

[Augustus]

You believe the Cabal?

[Isiah]

:D good answer.

 

Yes remember, everything you have been told is a lie ;)

 

Cheers

I

[Grimdarkness]

Such a taint could be the mistrust the lion and he's legion have shown in the HH to this point.

[Magos Valkamar]

You believe the Cabal?

 

When I read Legion, the impression I got was that the eldar were manipulating the Cabal for their own ends. After all, the eldar are hardly the biggest fans of humanity, are they?

[shabbadoo]

What the quote (which is true) refers to are the rushed methods used at that time to crank out geneseed to make more space marines; too quickly in this case, which led to variance/impurities/corruption.  It does not mean the the geneseed itself is inherently corrupted, only that the creation methods were...lacking.  Quantity over quality basically, which was seen to have become an issue.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Their Loyalties obviously. Even the Lion only adhers to a code of honout when he sees fit

[JeffJedi]

It's only a flaw from the Cabal's point of view. For example they could be calling  Independent mindedness a flaw.

[march10k]

Their Loyalties obviously. Even the Lion only adhers to a code of honout when he sees fit

PURGE THIS FOUL XENOS!!!! (and his heretical lies)

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

 

Their Loyalties obviously. Even the Lion only adhers to a code of honout when he sees fit

PURGE THIS FOUL XENOS!!!! (and his heretical lies)

Considering how he dishonourably attacked Curze, dismissed the Nikea Edict and slew his chaplain in a fit - I think the truth hurts far more than any lies.

 

I'd like to Coin the nickname Lion'el Jonson, the Aspergers Primarch.

[Aegnor]

And I'd like to say I don't appreciate you using Aspergers as a punchline or an insult. It's a real life situation that is often not much fun for people affected.

 

Jack of the Pelt - I don't know about the Eldar manipulating the Cabal, but I think it is made clear that there is disagreement, at least over some details, within the Cabal about how to deal with the human "situation" and that Slau Dar is at the more violently anti-human endnof those disagreements. So manipulation might imply a level of control that's inaccurate - maybe lobbying or arguing within the Cabal to try and steer it to their way of thinking. And Slau Dar isn't necessarily representative of all Eldar. Eldrad seems to have a different view for instance.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

How can one dishonourably attack a primarch known for his cheap tricks in the First place? Granted he does bend the rules, but he isn't considered one of the best primarch minds for just a mere chance. I would call him ruthless.

Furthermore on a side note I don't think coining the name Aspergers Primarch is beffitting neither to the fictional characer nor to the million of people that suffer from such a condition since you're throwing it as an insult.

[Onisuzume]

 

 

 

 

Their Loyalties obviously. Even the Lion only adhers to a code of honout when he sees fit

PURGE THIS FOUL XENOS!!!! (and his heretical lies)

 

 

Considering how he dishonourably attacked Curze, dismissed the Nikea Edict and slew his chaplain in a fit - I think the truth hurts far more than any lies.

 

I'd like to Coin the nickname Lion'el Jonson, the Aspergers Primarch.

 

 

And Ferros Manus had a far worse temper and killed far more of his marines like that, while the Lion was immediately struck with regret at what he did.

As for acting dishonourably towards Curze, isn't Curze the king of dishonest warfare (well, other than Alpharius/Omegon perhaps)?

Furthermore on a side note I don't think coining the name Aspergers Primarch is beffitting neither to the fictional characer nor to the million of people that suffer from such a condition since you're throwing it as an insult.

True. And while he does display some traits of having an ASD, it is debatable whether that is due to upbringing, or rather, the lack thereof, or due to genetics which seems to be the current cause of ASDs.

And even considering his lack of upbringing, he clearly displays himself to be far superior to humans who, if suffering from a similar case, would be unable to properly learn speech.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Aspergers as yet to be classified as a true mental sickness or simply a difference. It is not something people should taken offense from, as I do not. It does not make you a freak or pariah. (I display minor traits as a mecanically inclined individual).

 

Aspergers is not speach retaled. It relates to empathy, mecanical thought and in some cases physical coordination.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Nevertheless, using it to label someone or something because of certain traits that are recognised as not favorable can be interpreted as insult for the common and/or not so versed in the matters of health people , so it's recommended you don't use it .

[Memento Of Prospero]

Ironically, this is exactly Magnus's point at Nikaea. The pursuit of knowledge is paramount. This condition does not deserve the stigmata of ignorance. Make sure you know what you are dealing with before taking the pitchfork and torches out.