Predictions for Book 3 Legion Rules

[Veteran Sergeant]

The Great Crusade lasted 200 years. The length of time the Alpha Legion was active is somewhat irrelevant. In fact, the shorter they are around, the more exacerbated the problem with them not Space Marining becomes.

 

But the time frame isn't really the question. It's just the context. The Great Crusade was going at such a quick pace that it only took around 200 years total. The 200 years wasn't a goal, it was the result. The context is to highlight how silly some of the stories (as if the idea of conquering a galaxy in 200 years isn't a little far-fetched, but hey, 40K) become where Space Marines are wasting time doing something other than showing up, murdering everyone who disagrees, then moving on. Follow-on forces were there for pacification and reconstruction. some of the books even talk about them. Then, for some reason, there are ridiculous novels like Descent of Angels (I think?) where the DA were "stuck" pacifying a planet while the White Scars moved on. Or something. I usually hand-wave it away like I do most of the other stuff that falls under "authors who don't know anything about war write war novels".

[Veteran Sergeant]

Vet sgt can I ask a quick question? Since you are old school alpha legion

 

I have a haze memory that they choose to side with Horus for the challenge of fighting marines, rather than out of any real desire to turn to chaos. I. Fact they were not a chaos legion, just a traitor legion. Am I remembering this right?

You have to remember the 2nd Edition fluff was much less fleshed out than it is now. So anachronisms are to be expected.

 

The Alpha Legion didn't join just for the challenge. They just found that they liked it. They joined because Alpharius had been really close with Horus, and didn't really know the Emperor that well. The IA expanded this that not only was he close with Horus, but the rebuke of so many of his brothers meant that when Horus was the only one who had "appreciated" what he'd done on Tesstra Prime, meant he was more or less alienated from everyone else already anyway.

 

After the Heresy was over, some of the Alpha Legion went to the Eye of Terror (the fluff for the Maelstrom was pretty minimal at that point so it didn't really factor as a huge part of the universe), and the rest stuck around to carry out a guerilla war. So they kinda road that line between renegade and traitor (in the traditional 40K sense. Obviously they were traitors in the political sense). But they were definitely Chaos. The cultists part was there from the beginning. They might just have been less likely to be dedicated to any one god, and be all mutatey.

[Kais Klip]

Cheers for answering my musing so thoroughly, Veteran Sergeant.

 

I have to disagree, in that the current operational modi, if you will, of the legion is a better representation of their old approach (I have to admit of never being present during the old AL you are referencing). There's that old adage of the most dangerous men being the ones who wear masks, and we have seen just how effective the legion's _new_ ways can be when one mortal operative captures and entire planet in the Warmaster's cause.

 

The biggest snag I can forsee in my argument is the fact that many of these tactics can (and were) carried out by ordinary humans, but I'm sure a certain component required Astartes contribution to be successful altogether. Perhaps the third book will enlighten use just to what extent the legion allows itself to conduct "regular" Astartes operations, ones that Guilliman (and you :D) would appreciate perhaps.

 

Your point regarding the Word Bearers being punished for their speed is another tricky one for me to rebute, but perhaps their relative size comes into effect, and the fact that they are the youngest legion? Those two should provide enough leeway to allow the Legion to waste their preffered commodity to waste, which is time. Considering the Emperor's and the Primarch's concerns, the timescale of the crusade should be the least of their worries, especially if it saves lives and results in succesful operations like the one which had the Blood Angels cooperate.

 

I do have to say that I have strict standards for my grit and realism, and the fact that the entire Raven Guard legion isnt reduced to carapace armour for their stealth operations offputs me more than MI mask games and such levels of "realism". The fact that I want the legion to be utterly distinct from the Raven Guard in their ways of "infiltration" (out of sight vs in your sight) doesn't drop my standards any lower, either.

 

Would you however agree that many of the problems regarding the legion in your eyes be dissapated were the legion to rely on more technological advantages like they were during Serpent Beneath, and stuff like their war machines and such, rather than their direct Astartes infiltration and mask-games? Limit infiltrations to the serf-level and leave the rest to the Raven Guard niche, perhaps?

[spu00sed]

Another quick question for old timers with a better memory than mine.

 

Was the great crusade shortened with the release of Horus heresy series. I'm sure it was longer before.

 

Thanks for all the help

[Veteran Sergeant]

There are lots of ways to enjoy 40K, so I don't want to turn it into a debate. I just wanted to answer the question of why people don't like DL (or at least why I don't). I also just have a somewhat dry sense of humor too, which occasionally bleeds into my posts.

 

Honestly, I'm actually more about the Legions being less diverse. I'm okay with Space Marines all just kinda being Space Marines. Maybe Night Lords are a little more ruthless, maybe the Imperial Fists are a little more stubborn, maybe Space Wolves are a little more fuzzy. But the more they try to diversify them with these heavy-handed themes, the more it become a bit tropey. I kinda figure, all Space Marines should be Space Marines first, and then something else.

[Kol Saresk]

One problem with the Word Bearers' "speed" was that they wasted time building up planets beyond the necessary. Where the Ultramarines would spend two years pacifyin a planet and then say, two more years overseeing the initial rebuilding efforts to make sure it had a good start before moving on, the word Bearers would spend one year burning it all to the ground and then spend eight years actually rebuilding the planet's infrastructure while indoctrinating the population. The Word Bearers wasted time. And according to the IA article, that was Guilliman's complaint with the Alpha legion. During a campaign, they would basically "play with their food", performing tactics that would push the enemy into certain positions before destroying it all.

 

If all the Alpha Legion did was "supervise" campaigns without actually fighting, I'm willing to bet they would have been censured as well. The Alpha Legion is a Legion first, and a massive Black Ops agency second.

 

And since we sevued back, Kais, if the Alpha Legion was so used to goin undercover, then it shouldn't have been a problem for them to think in the stereotypical, psychological profile they have of the Raven Guard's behavior. After all, we have a decent idea of how all our chosen factions should act. Someone who is skilled at infiltrating and has psychically implanted memories and genetically absorbed istincts should have a better time than we do.

 

But we got little treats like "Where all the defenses?" "Not all defenses are hidden in plain sight. Remember your training Raven Guard." and "Where did you learn that move?" *Oh crap, I wasn't thinking* "Uh I saw a Word Bearer do it?" "Good job. Teach it to everyone else." *Oh sweet Baby Cthulhu that worked!*

 

Mistakes can be expected. Improvisation will have to occur. But when your instincts are trained to mimic a certain behavior, then they mimic. There was no mimicry. There was "I look like a Raven Guard, I wear armor like a Raven Guard, but I walk, talk and act like Alpha Legion." These guys were the donkeys someone dressed up in a tux and expected to look like gentlemen. Of course, as Veteran Sergeant said, can't expect someone who has never acted to be able to write about it. Although i'd love to meet someone who can travel the galaxy. Although, maybe not since I'm liable to steal the ship and start building an intergalactic empire......... Cookie for that reference ;)

[Prefect Apollyon]

I can see the Alpha Legion getting something to do with redeploying a few enemy units. As for Alpharius Omegon, it'd be funny if they went all Trazyn the Infinite on them.

 

After all, everyone is Alpharius.

[Conn Eremon]

I can understand Vet. Sarge's view of Legion being the first departure from the IA. To me, though it wasn't, not as I had originally read the IAs. Others used it as a springboard and departed, but Legion itself depicted the IA's Alpha Legion, though not in a way most people had assumed. That was the kicker. Assumptions were made, and they were not met by Abnett. Even though it remained faithful to the written word, it was not faithful to the imaginations of the fans.

[Kais Klip]

Even though it remained faithful to the written word, it was not faithful to the imaginations of the fans.

Which were what though, what were the old-timers expecting? Without "M:I" style shenanigans what are the extra directions the hydra would strike from? The Ravens have the shadows covered, the Scars the 2 dimensions and the Blood Angels the third. Why can't we have a KGB or Mossad legion to contrast the Raven's SAS/whatever-military-spec-ops. Sure it might not be work for an Astartes, but what would the AL have working for them if not "grimdark Mission Impossible" moves?

 

Granted, a bit cheap to bring up so recent, tailored-fluff but AL is one of the reduced number, younger "specialty" legions. Was that such a wrong move? Granted, the sallies' role fits more inline with Astartes, and perhaps too the NL.

 

I'm just envisioning the old AL you guys speak off as modern Scars mixed with the mentality of the third legion? I recognise Vet Sgt wishes for more homogeneity, surely someone opposes that alongside me?

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, Legion fit into my idea of the Legion on the bad day. An Astartes Legion that used very unconventional tactics in an attempt to line the ducks up all in a row before knocking em all down.

 

And actually, if Deliverance had been written better, I might be more partial to Astartes infiltrating other Legions. Gav Thorpe did an okay job in the short story. But for some reason when he went to the novel.......

 

But then we get Rob Sanders and the Serpent Beneath. That was beautiful. That fit perfectly into the idea Abnett set up in Legion while also showing the "unconventional tactics" mentioned in the IA.

[Kais Klip]

As a fanboy I loved Serpent Beneath, but I can't help but look at everything until the infiltration of tenebrae as the kind of AL everyone agrees on being fun and apt, and everything afterwards as Raven Guard in indigo.

[Conn Eremon]

Honestly, when I read the IAs, I wondered too what that meant. They were a Legion that favored destroying an enemy as devastatingly and showboatingly as possible. They were young and they wanted to make a name for themselves; they didn't want to hide in the shadows of their elders. But they didn't say exactly how they went about it. It gave vague descriptions that did nothing more than confirm their mentality rather than elaborate on it. And it didn't help that the IA was written from a historian viewpoint, an Imperial one at that. The Legion depicted in the IA was clearly an unknown element, so it was difficult to impart such nuggets of wisdom. Things like "Oh, by the way, the Primarch is twins," were not in the IA because the narrator had very little knowledge on the Alpha Legion, and most of it was from external sources.

 

But then Legion came out, and I read it. My thoughts were, "Oh, that's what they meant." Like Kol just said, it's a Legion that likes to line its ducks in a row. With a single, overwhelming attack, that would take the Legion an inordinate amount of time to set up, the foe would be brilliantly excised from the galaxy. Now we know why it takes so long, why they are able to maneuver themselves in such a way. It all fits, but it doesn't necessarily fit with the general assumption many people made with how Legions in general worked.

 

For me, Serpent Beneath was a departure just like Deliverance Lost, unlike Legion. The difference, for me, between Serpent and Deliverance is quality in writing. Serpent Beneath was good, more on the level of Legion. You can make me accept a lot of things so long as it is written well. Abnett and AD-B are masters at making me accept things.

[Kais Klip]

I just realised that we really must know just what exactly the AL did to the Orks that the greenskins ran to the Blood Angels. Something like that callidus/mekboy in that story, long, long ago? Otherwise I'm struggling to come up with the Legion's specially in combating the enemies of mankind. Sallies and Night Lords are usefull in their own unique way vs xenos, what the hell do the AL bring?

[Kol Saresk]

But see, that's the problem with the Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Raven Guard; three faces to the same pyramid. All three rely on some variation of guerilla warfare. Heck, you can even stretch it to a four-sided pyramid and throw in the White Scars. There should be bleed out. All four Legions use tactics that include force multipliers.

 

Now if it was something like Vulkan Lives where the Word Bearers constantly reminded you of Night Lords, then it'd be weird

[Kais Klip]

Yeah but I'm asking what the Alpha Legion's niche would be? The ravens have the shadows, the night lords psychological warfare, and the scars have superior mobility and encirclement. What do the AL bring that makes them a different face, rather than just the inside to the outside?

[Kol Saresk]

Actually the Ravens are supposed to be psychological as well. Where the Night Lords relied on fear, the Ravens relied on creating confusion. The whole "We are the shadows in the night!" Thing was a by-product of how they fought. Lately its gone the other way around.

 

As for the Alpha Legion, think back to Fear to Tread and the IA articles. Methods of warfare that caused Orks to run away scared. Not to mention blowing up a whole planetoid. Surgical strikes against enemy communication centers before wiping them out by striking en masse from multiple directions. Allowing the enemy to shore up its defenses before crushing it utterly. Doing the unexpected. Maybe pretending to be other Astartes is included in that since we're in the Heresy now. If it is, it needs to be better written so it doesn't look like five year-olds pretending to be incognito super-soldiers.

[Conn Eremon]

The Alpha Legion fill the same niche as the Night Lord a and Raven Guard. What gives them character and individuality is their mindset and approach.

 

You could say all three view their tactics as means to an end, with that end being unique to each of them. For the Raven Guard, that is the application of minimal resources for maximum gain. Their lives hold meaning beyond their duties. For the Night Lords, it is a means to instill fear, it is the mindset of a predator stalking his prey, pouncing with vicious abandon from out of nowhere.

 

The Alpha Legion got a curious case of both the inferiority complex and superiority complex. It is that duality from the IA that most hinted at their future under Abnett. They are young, and the others have been around for decades, over a century. They have the most to prove and this niche is their means to prove it. The superiority complex comes in where you can see that they believe themselves successful. They were angry at the Ultramarines, one of the primary examples of successful older brothers, for dismissing their methods. They view themselves as the least, with the most to prove, while also viewing themselves as having proven that with more than sufficient adequacy, to the point of arrogance and disdain.

[Excessus]

All in all I liked Legion, except the fact that the ending was very...strange...

 

Deliverance Lost might as well have never happened, and I dislike that book a lot. In The Serpent Beneath it is important to remember that it's Omegon and his guys that does the sneaky part. The whole assault on the installation itself is imho actually really cool and something I imagine the Alpha Legion being really really good at at a legionnaire level, but again, it's Omegon that's being all sneaky in it.

 

As a 2nd ed Alpha Legion player, I too am well familiar with the history of the AL fluff. They fleshed it out more and more and all was good until "modern times" where they just went a bit overboard. The cultist and insurgent connections and SAS-style fighting was there from the start, as was them having an agenda of their own and not really following Horus plans.

 

Legion as a book was very nice I thought, and explained a lot of how the legion worked. Sure they overdid it a bit with the "I am Alpharius" bit, and I think that the dinner scene with "Alpharius" and Lord Commander Teng Namatjira was written a bit too badly...as if the position of "Primarch" didn't hold enough power to awe a simple human. I know it was most likely written to make Namatjira look more arrogant and help paint the Alpha Legion as a "new" legion...but I still didn't like it at all! Let's not even go into the cabal stuff...but overall I thought it was a nice book.

 

Deliverance Lost is a horrible book. I'm not going to go into all the glaring problems with it, but in my mind, this was Omegon's guys doing their thing, not the legion as a whole. All the super-infiltrating stuff á lá Deliverance Lost I imagine it's a small part of the legion doing under Omegon's guidance, and not their main way of battle. This story also sets a crappy precedence for Alpha Legion stories...where everybody dies at the end. Damn you Gav Thorpe for starting that trend!

 

The Serpent Beneath was actually a very nice story imho. You have the undercover stuff, enacted by a very small portion of the legion (Omegon's guys, yet again), a pre-operation planning session á lá SAS, a nice little spec ops assault with objectives taken and stuff blown up, but unfortunately a crappy ending...yet again, everybody dies!

 

Fear to Tread has a little Alpha Legion in it, which is imho perfectly fine with how they are. Secretive and pragmatic, building personal relations with other Primarchs (who doesn't like them anyway) is a chore, and they get the job done. Even though I would love to know what they did to the orks, a little mystery is all fine and dandy here.

 

Haven't read Scars yet, nor Unremembered Empire, so I can't comment on those....

 

Well, that turned out to be...lengthy... 4:47 in the morning, I haven't slept yet and I crave Tea...so forgive any typos! :D

 

 

As I think I wrote in an earlier post, the infiltration stuff and general plot-twisting stuff doesn't fit well on a battlefield. Those are done as operations to prepare for the main battles, or as cleaning up after. "Terrifying coordination" was their hallmark ever since the 2nd ed codex. Infiltration is just one deployment option and I think there are enough stuff that does that. Outflank and reserve roll manipulation is what I think suits the Alpha Legion best as an army trait. Let's not confuse army wide traits with special squad rules. DS accuracy can be something for the Lernaean Terminator Squads as an example, and "upgraded" seeker and recon squads are most likely going to be in...maybe...and maybe in larger numbers...

[StruManChu]

I think what might be cool to represent the Alpha Legion would be something like vox network hacking or similar. On a roll of 4+, the target unit does not receive a bonus from a Nuncio-Vox that turn.

 

You could also stack these to represent further disruption to enemy communication. For example, if your Seeker Squad (or Effrit Stealth Squad... Whomever, really) manages to kill the enemy Master of Signals, not only do the AL receive the VP, but the enemy's LD is now at -1 or similar for the rest of the game.

 

A watered down version of the Vigilator's Sabotage! rule may also be cool for Veteran Tactical or Reconnaissance Squads, but maybe through something more like a Reserves roll rather than at post-deployment - 'In lieu of firing in the shooting phase, the unit may set off their conveniently placed bombs/IEDs/suicide serfs at a target enemy unit on a roll of 2+, causing whatever damage deemed appropriate' or similar.

 

[Noserenda]

As another Long Term Alpha Legion fan id agree with most of what Excessus said, to be fair the Tempus Fugitives Alpha Legion rules are a pretty solid representation of how i see them (Mostly due to incessant poking :D ). Specialist units can be super spy-ninjas and id expect a Veteran/Seeker/Recon hybrid squad that does something like that, or uses Falsehoods or something. Then Possibly an Operative unit (Though IG Allies works for them tbh) and certainly Laeran Terminators (Mostly because I love terminators...). But striking from all angles is certainly their shtick on the battlefield, combine that with some control elements or reserve manipulation and i think youre pretty spot on. Of course some of that is very hard to translate into good rules...

Either way Alan seems to have a good handle on the Legion and id love to see what FW come up with. Like seriously last time I was at GWHQ i was thinking about how possible it would be to break into FW and read all the things... :P

Novel Wise ive actually liked them all so far, even Deliverance lost! I think to some extent the Infiltrators were not typical, they were the ones in relevant and dramatic places after all, a story talking about the dozen other agents who flawlessly slipped in and acted just like Raven Guard for the whole book until they get made in the purge wouldnt be very interesting really but given there was such a purge there has to have been at least a few :) I also wouldnt underestimate the trauma the Ravens were going through, it was a great combination of circumstances that let the Alphas pull this off, i doubt it would go half as well in "Peacetime".

[Wade Garrett]

I would have been more impressed with the infiltrators in Deliverance Lost if they had fooled the Primarch Corax instead of his dumber brother "Khorx".

 

You can tell them apart because Corax would have had the last loyalist Word Bearer (okay, second to last after Vulkan Lives) taken in for interrogation.

 

I'd imagine he was very unhappy that Khorx punched the Chaplain's face off while screaming "KILL! MAIM BURN!"

[depthcharge12]

I would be interested in seeing Alpha Legion getting a different victory point system to represent their "secret agenda".

 

 

Maybe there is a table which you roll on (slight cringe) to find out what your objective is:

 

1-2 "seeds of dissent" kill all Hq units, each HQ destroyed counts as 2VPs

 

3-4 "Hidden Snake" prevent enemy units from entering your deployment zone, 2 or 3 VPs if no enemy scoring unit in your zone at end of game

 

5-6 "At any cost" opponent places forlorn hope objective in his deployment zone, you must capture or the best you can do is draw. Worth 2 VPs to AL. Choose one scoring troop choice, may re-enter play after completely destroyed on a 3+

[lokkorex]

one thing i've been wondering for a while, what weapon will Perturabo have?

 

he didn't exactly strut around with Ferrus Manus Forgebreaker pre-heresy did he?

 

it would be kinda weird if an iron hands player and an Iron Warrior player each put their primarch on the table and both have the same weapon.

 

i'm hoping he gets a big axe he uses in "Shining"-style, aka "heeeere's Perturabo!!", to hack through walls.

[Dosjetka]

I just want some fluff for Fafnir Rann. That Imperial Fist with Executioners iconography on his shield has been such a tease. I would be soooooo happy.

 

Any chance that I can get a link to that, please?

[lokkorex]

i'm hoping for Alexis Pollux, personally.