Cypher in CSM

[zyl-]

Honestly, I would want to join him to other units like daemons.. but that's just obvious, right?

 

It would be very nice with hatred or zealot for all that reroll sweetness, but it all still suffers from the same problems with delivery. Being unable to charge after an outflank makes it tough to get there in time.

[daboarder]

Actually the rules explicitly permit starting an iC attached to a unit inside a transport. And the logic chain disallowing the Infiltrating shennanigans is pretty unassailable... Shrike is a special case since the wording of his rule specifically mentions him being attahed to a unit.

I still can't believe people bring this up.

Its alright I still cant believe people dont read the rules either. The rules only permit you to deploy in a transport of a unit you have already joined....but you can only "join" a unit during deployment by being within 2" of it or in reserve with it (atleast thats your argument for dissalowing infiltrate). Ergo bythe logic you are professing for infiltrate you can also NOT start in an other units transpor. Oh and shrike doesn't let him join units it excludes him fro joining anything but jump infantey. So unless you want him toonly ever be able to infiltrate by himsef....

 

"Before deploying he may only join squads of jump infantry"

 

Oh and that explicily states....well the indepent character rule tellls you that you can join before the game so.... the overwhelming weight of evidence from multiple sources supports the interpretation that IC do transfer infiltrate

[Sception]

op has requested that this conversation not happen here.

[daboarder]

Fine ive said my piece and im just glad thr tournaments in Australia agree with me. In that regards im really looking at cypher with some serious interest for infiltrate and shrouded

[hallodx]

OP, my idea is, buy chosen, give them just melta bomb, and keep them small. Even just popping tanks or chopping bodies, they can make your opponent headache. Don't forget as long as you go second, they can charge at first game turn.

[the jeske]

but 5 chosen have as many attacks as a sm tactical . the kill ratio is horrible. hiting on +4 wounding on +4 and then meq save on +3 . with 5 chosen , even without any deaths from shoting, one will kill 1-2 meq per turn.

[daboarder]

how about infiltrating scoring plague marines? 3+ cover, T5, FnP and a pair of plasma......even harder to shift than regular plagues, and packs a punch within 12 due to his double shot plasma.

[hallodx]

but 5 chosen have as many attacks as a sm tactical . the kill ratio is horrible. hiting on +4 wounding on +4 and then meq save on +3 . with 5 chosen , even without any deaths from shoting, one will kill 1-2 meq per turn.

2A base with pistol and CC weapon so it's 3 attacks each chosen. Enough to do some pressure on back line support. Sure we have to pick match for them, say broadside suits that lack of support. Will your opponent give up a turn that can pop your predictor? No? Then chosen will go up and chap his suits.

[Slayer le Boucher]

I'm really tempted to take Cypher in a unit of Khorne Chosen with Khârn in a LR.

 

I'm more interested with Shrouded and Hit & Run in this combo.

 

Having each turn Khârn + Chosen to shoot and charge, thats something i cannot pass on...

[Warsmith Aznable]

Whatever I end up putting him with, I really think I'm going to end up making an Alpha Legion operative to represent Cypher. Just because.

[the jeske]

Will your opponent give up a turn that can pop your predictor? No? Then chosen will go up and chap his suits.

most broadsides teams I have seen are encircled by chaff and tau have no problems with killing full 10 man meq squads , but that aside he would have to run no cortez[why if he is a gunline] , run no cortez and have no counter units[so he is like a pod build or something] or he doesn't need to counter them , because he moves fast[ eldar , demons] and he has to be weak in melee . If I somehow wanted a chaff I would sooner infiltrate or deep strike a single melee oblterator , costs less .

 

 

2A base with pistol and CC weapon so it's 3 attacks each chosen.

am always assuming that 2-3 dudes froma melee unit die before the unit gets to charge . you said small squad so 6-7 . so end up with 10-12 A your hiting like a sm tactical . unless of course you get to charge , then you have 4 A on each dude and et 12-16A which is one+ meq dead , it is still a horrible way to try to kill stuff and only works if opponent is a static gunline . Not even IG and Tau play static gunlines anymore.

[Sception]

I'm inclined to try him with a single chosen unit from his formation. They can all infiltrate, put out a bunch of plasma fire, have atsknf to stay in place, shroud to protect from shooting, hit and run to escape unfavorable melee. Still probably too expensive and fragile to be 'good', but they seem like they'd be interesting to try out.

[the jeske]

try a mega deathstar then . max chosen 2 fists , 2 claws , lucifer  , 2 sorc[ 3xtelepatthy 2xbio 1xtelepathy] , 1 lord [preferably of the khorn on juggernought kind]. your going to be supprised how it works , as long as you go first.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Whatever I end up putting him with, I really think I'm going to end up making an Alpha Legion operative to represent Cypher. Just because.

 

I said I'd do it, and here's his first WIP post.

[Sception]

Looking good.

 

I still haven't decided if I'm going to do a straight Cypher model, or a 'counts as' to represent an original character.  If I do the latter, I'll probably go out of my way to make him look different.  No hood, just keep the pistols.

 

Not sure yet, though.  There is something tempting about doing Cypher as Cypher, with a unit of legit Fallen.  Particularly with the specificity of the Dark Angel rules for hunting him, and his tendency to work with just about anyone from time to time, so it's easy enough to incorporate him into my existing fluff.

[crucial]

try a mega deathstar then . max chosen 2 fists , 2 claws , lucifer , 2 sorc[ 3xtelepatthy 2xbio 1xtelepathy] , 1 lord [preferably of the khorn on juggernought kind]. your going to be supprised how it works , as long as you go first.

Lucifer? A chaos deathstar sounds funny but this is over 1000pts :(

[the jeske]

The DA dude =lucifer.

 

270pts

for 2 claw 1 fist 1 ax 2 meltaguns chosen

 

BL sorc 140pts

Csm sorc with familar 150

1 lucifer 190.

1 csm lord with Khorny Ax 110

 

860 . less then the paladin star , but it has 4 HQs traded for the paladins extra wounds and +2sv/force weapons.

 

Over the top ? yes , But mali wanted to use 1 chosen unit , may as well do something different . taking a chosen MSU can be done through BL and inf can be added to them using huron . much cheaper then the lucifer tax .

[Sception]

I don't know about cheaper. Luke is only, what? 30 points more than huron? And the fallen are each two points cheaper than black legion chosen, so if you run 3x5 fallen, thats cheaper than 3x5 BL chosen, and you're guaranteed to infiltrate all three squads, plus luke himself. They won't be scoring, but I wouldn't necessarily say fallen spam is worse than huron-based chosen spam, Black Legion or otherwise.

 

But chosen spam is kind of lousy to begin with, so you can do it 'better' with cy/luke and still have it not worth doing. Chosen are just too fragile for the points, and even loaded down with spevial weapons their offensive output is hardly intimidating, so taking more just seems less good than taking less, though cypher's one unit with shroud, hit and run, and non-controversial infiltrate seems ok.

 

 

The death star thing seems like a neat idea. Sadly I can't/won't try it due to ... reasons. Maybe the rumored 7e will change that.

[daboarder]

Cypher at least does help with their survivability by handing out shrouded to at least his unit

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Which is great against Marines, but Tau don't recognize your right to a cover save, and Eldar throw so many dice that they just don't care...

[the jeske]

Luke is only, what? 30 points more than huron?

no sad part is that he is a a warlord + his own cost tax and you can't even take a cheap sorc as one , because of the Ld thingy.

 

 

 

And the fallen are each two points cheaper than black legion chosen, so if you run 3x5 fallen,

thats cheaper than 3x5 BL chosen, and you're guaranteed to infiltrate

all three squads, plus luke himself. They won't be scoring, but I

wouldn't necessarily say fallen spam is worse than huron-based chosen

spam, Black Legion or otherwise.

 

I agree in that in the age of servo skulls any build that tries to work out of infiltration must have in mind that the concept of good was thrown out of the window.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The death star thing seems like a neat idea. Sadly I can't/won't try it

due to ... reasons. Maybe the rumored 7e will change that.

Well there are a lot of ifs , to try to make it work . opponent has to be static , can't be i5 or a deathstar himself , no shoting D on the table , multi shot weapons limited, because the unit lacks +2sv tanks[if only fallen could take marks and icons] . More or less one has to fight melee orks or something like that.

[crucial]

Why not use a bob standard chosen unit frim the BL codex then? You get marks then but the cost is way higher..

[Icarsun]

I'm looking at running the Chosen as 2x special weapon, 1x combi on the champ, of a single type. Thinking of doing this with melta, and makes them 120pts. Infiltrate them in and run 'em similar to Termicide. 

 

The issue I have is not with Infiltrating Chosen, my issue that I keep coming back to is what to run Cypher in?

 

No matter what, I can't think of a unit in the CSM codex that would best work with Cypher...

[the jeske]

run him with unit of inf chosen . take 3x5 x3 plasma . formation. main army BL huron as warlord[auch to his psychic power ability] identical chosen units 2 [2x5 x3plasma] 3 helldrakes.

[bjoluemblem]

I ran Cypher in a game today, and he performed well, with the exception of challenges. Huron as HQ (VotLW grants +1 Ld so it cancels out the Cypher -1 Ld) and he infiltrated 3 units. Two CSMs x15, one with Cypher, one with Huron. Mix of Big Guns and Crusade for mission. He outflanked on turn two with CSMs, wiped out a tac squad, and proceeded to hold up Belial+9 Deathwing for three turns. They only got through them all on turn five due to Belial challenging Cypher and doing three wounds to him (why no invuln on Cypher, GW? WHY????). Lost me the game as he granted extra VPs to the Dark Angels forces (11-10, game ended turn 5, super close) but he made a CSM squad awesome. Cypher is a boost to any unit that needs ATSKNF, grants Ld10 and infiltrate/shrouded. Chosen are probably too expensive to run them as I'd like, but with regular CSMs he performed quite well. IMO he belongs in a close range shooty unit that either infiltrates or outflanks. Plasma CSMs or Chosen, probably.